however I'd personally give him a million dollars, if he could prove it with the aledged evidence he says he has.
and I mean that sincerely.
Did Jesus exist?
- Thread starter nds1
- Start date
and I mean that sincerely.
But nds1, the first question was not "Did Jesus Exist?" The first question was " Did a physical man exist who preached the fundamentals of Christianity?" My answer was to point out that the man who preached the fundamentals of Christianity was not Jesus, because Jesus himself did no such thing. In other words, I felt that your question was poorly thought through.
I agree, but that's not the point, is it? Jesus existing is one question. The second question assumes the first has been answered in the positive (which I'm fairly sure you don't believe). But it is not a question that can be answered by science, so why bring it up in a thread about which things are more debatable?
But as a skeptic, I have to say that I don't accept your criteria at all. Just because the accounts in the Gospels are not first hand, doesn't mean that they don't reflect some kind of reality. Conversely, if the Gospel accounts were first hand, I for one would never accept them as positive proof that Jesus was the Son of God!
I'll take your word for that. However, the whole point of fora like this one and the JREF are to educate those people who are more than a "little more inclined to believe" and to demonstrate the fallacies in such belief.
Actually, even religious preachers have used the feeding of the 5000 to talk about other areas of Christian belief that imply that it wasn't miraculous at all. It has been stated that the feeding of the 5000 is an allegory of sharing - that everybody was fulfilled because Jesus had demonstrated the value of sharing between the haves and the have-nots, not because two or three tiny crumbs really satisfied anybody. My own explanation would be more to do with the kind of mass-hypnosis or mob psychology that is being used even today by the Alpha Course and the Toroto Blessing people.
I just don't understand you at all. I thought you were trying to demonstrate that since the miracles could not have taken place there was no reason to believe that Jesus was the Son of God. Now you're citing the Bible story and claiming that what is written there not only describes events but even accounts for belief in Jesus's divinity while he was still alive!
So, first of all. Nobody at the feeding of the 5000 necessarily thought that Jesus was the Son of God, just because someone decades later wrote it in as an example. If the feeding of the 5000 took place, the best we can say is that those people were more inclined to believe in Jesus and follow him - possibly what they had in mind was the overthrow of the Roman opporession rather than the imminent arrival of the Kingdom of God. The idea that Jesus was the Son of God really pretty much came later on, derived from the theology of Paul rather than anything that might have happened during Jesus's lifetime. And the story of Thomas actually takes place after the Resurrection, which I'm pretty sure any hardnosed skeptic would laugh out of court as any kind of historical account, seeing as it involves a dead guy talking.
But my point was that that we could be convinced by a video, but not that that we would be necessarily correct in an assertion of the divinity of the perpertrator, be his name Jesus or David Blaine.
The Mayans had such myths as well, which they not only wrote about, but built amazing monuments covered with stone carvings depicting them.
The accounts you refer to were not first-hand.
Ragnarok,
Your story is truly amazing. I myself have witnessed a few similar health miracles with some other people. I find it interesting that you asked GOD to heal you, not JESUS. Not in a sarcastic way, I just found that interesting.
Also, there are probably millions of people who have died from life threatening health problems similiar to yours. These people had cancer, aids, etc. I'm sure almost every one of these people prayed to God and asked for healing. However, truly sadly, God decided not to answer their prayers.
Ragnarok, your healing experience was probably a 1 in a million chance of happening, otherwise it wouldn't be miracle, would it? So God answers only 1 in a million prayers. That's really comforting to know.
Also, I've always thought that if one was truly united to God/Jesus in spirit then they in effect would want to die and go to heaven in a way, or at least they wouldn't care if they did die. I've always found it interesting when "holy" people pray desparetly to God to heal them when they claim not to care about life. If I was truly united to God and didnt care about life in this world, I would probably pray that I WOULD die so that I could go to heaven and leave this world.
Note: Ragnarok, I wasn't referring to you that last paragraph. I was referring to anyone who fits that profile.
How many people had miraculous recoveries that did not pray? I bet the odds are the same.
Paul (or another Apostle) said that he would rather be with the Lord in Heaven, but that he had work to do for Him on Earth, as the Bible says, like a bond-slave, willingly a slave.
The greatest miracle is that fallen men/women are reconciled to God, and born again Christians know this, and even Paul had an infirmity which he had to deal all his adult life, so physical healings are to display the power of God to unbelievers more than to always satisfy the desires of His children.
The greatest miracle is that fallen men/women are reconciled to God, and born again Christians know this, and even Paul had an infirmity which he had to deal all his adult life, so physical healings are to display the power of God to unbelievers more than to always satisfy the desires of His children.
I have a friend who had a brain aneurism (sp?), blood in the spinal fluid, the whole bit, bad deal, but after we prayed, they could not find it, and my friend has been fine ever since.
Notice your willingness to avoid contemplating other more probable explanations (of which I'm sure there are many), because of your prefference to prayer. What about all the people who simply die of disease despite being heavily prayed for? What about all the people who are mysteriously cured of disease despite no prayers?
And what about all the millions of people who have gone to Lourdes, and the number of 'miracles' is so pathetically small as they represent the statistical probability of being cured of a serious illness anyway, just as the story of your friend (which I assume is an honest account).
It's not a miracle if the doctors can't explain exactly how a patient was cured, and it is not a miracle unless it is something along the lines of growing back a lost limb or something else equally impossible such as a plane making a perfect landing after both it's wings have fallen off at 30,000 feet.
And what about all the millions of people who have gone to Lourdes, and the number of 'miracles' is so pathetically small as they represent the statistical probability of being cured of a serious illness anyway, just as the story of your friend (which I assume is an honest account).
It's not a miracle if the doctors can't explain exactly how a patient was cured, and it is not a miracle unless it is something along the lines of growing back a lost limb or something else equally impossible such as a plane making a perfect landing after both it's wings have fallen off at 30,000 feet.
Greetings,
Actually,
I popped in by chance.
Just realised my e-mail is out of date, whoops
Iasion
I hope you don't mind my cheap tactic at luring you back. I was gambling that you had email notification when I moved some relevant posts to your thread.
Actually,
I popped in by chance.
Just realised my e-mail is out of date, whoops
Iasion
I had the flu. I didn't pray and I miraculously got better after a couple days.
Surely you jest. It's based on values endorsed by the smart people of the tribes in question at the time, with the underlying intention of unifying an ignorant populous around the strength of the idea of divinity - in an authoritative manner.
It's wonderfully human, and an important part of the specie's journey towards the next phase of evolution... the one in which be begin to choose how we evolve, rather than "stupid evolution", wherein gazillions of years pass and not much happens, etc. of course "stupid evolution" will always be fundamental, the evolution via choice is a fundamental exponentiation of the evolutionary process (IMO at least), and christianity is one of the memes that has evolved to keep us going. Think of the strength it has offered so many millions of people. Strength to do the impossible, etc.
That is hardly unfounded.
My grandpa used to get a colonoscopy every year to check for colon cancer. Then, one year he got extremely sick becuase he had stage IV colon cancer, which had been developing over years. Apparently the guy doing the colonoscopy every year had no clue what he was doing. I have a very religious family, my Grandpa being very religious (Christian) himself. Prayer after prayer couldn't cure him.
So your brain aneuysm story may only prove the unreliabilty of diagnosis of doctors.
Now, if your friend did have a brain aneurysm, he/she could have tried out the new procedure below - taken from http://www.brainaneurysm.com/patientstory-susielaurie.html
“Miracle” Procedure, “Amazing” Recovery
When Susie entered New York–Presbyterian Hospital on Nov. 9, her spirits were lifted again, this time by a handmade card she’d received from her then 7-year-old granddaughter, Madeleine. It read, “Dear Baba, I love you!! I hope you are OK in your brain trouble!”
The child’s—and the entire Laurie family’s—fondest hopes were realized when Susie’s three-hour procedure went off without a hitch. Susie was discharged the next day, but she stayed in the city, a precaution Dr. Gobin advised. “I was in New York for four days, and I did no shopping! That was the weirdest part,” Susie says with a chuckle. Except for headaches for 10 days or so afterward, she was quickly back in the swing, celebrating Thanksgiving and Christmas, and throwing a cocktail party in January to thank loved ones who’d supported her.
Months later, Susie still calls her recovery “amazing” and marvels at the coiling procedure that made it possible. “It’s truly a miracle, the wave of the future,” she says. “I have been very, very fortunate. And I’d have to say I’m unusual in that I’ve had the surgery and I’ve had coiling. If I were given the choice, I’d never have the surgery.
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Apparently, the only miracle here is science, not prayer.
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Science is not miraculous.
Jesus never made an atomic bomb.
http://www.christian-faith.com/html/page/son_healed_of_cysts
The website above is basically about how a 5 month old baby was diagnosed with cysts. An ultrasound was used to find the cysts. Then, miracuously, the mother prayed, the infant was reevaluated using an MRI, and the cysts were gone! Wow, amazing! All this proves this that ultrasound is sometimes unreliable when doctors can't read it correctly.
In fact, Wikipedia states that "The biggest danger of ultrasound is often considered to be misdiagnosis by untrained operators."
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I believe you.
Every launch of that bucket of bolts that doesn't end in, well... many buckets of bolts is miraculous.
Following your train of thought, an equally valid conclusion is reached from the fact that there are terminally ill people who are prayed for and yet don't get better.