Did Jesus exist?

Hiya tech :)

"I'm not seeing a lot of evidence for the Jesus myth though."

I posted many pages of evidence on this thread.
Didn't you read it?

Your article is interesting,
but
I saw no evidence at all in it.

Just lengthy opinions that look like you copied straight from AcharyaS - much of which is not very accurate.

Do you have any actual cites to back up any of your claims?


Iasion
 
Hi Iasion, thanks for the reply. I still standby the fact the there was little evidence given in this thread of a mythic Christ. There was certainly lots that he didn't exist as a human but I'm not sure if this can be taken as proof of his mythical existance. I mean mythical in the metaphorical, Joe Campbell sense. Medicine Woman and yourself had some great posts though.
I've never read any of Acharya's books unfortunately but I've seen her in interviews. If anything the article is influenced by Jordan Maxwell but copied, no. Whereas others use comparitive religion and lack of historical data to prove Jesus didn't exist I try to stick to the observable in the nighttime sky. The cites to my claim are found when you look up.
Stellarium (stellarium.org) is a free astronomy program that easily allows you to see the stars as the appear in the night sky. If you go back to the time of Jesus and speed up the time a little so you can see the sun slowly moving on the ecliptic you'll see the story of the new testament played out before your eyes.
"Proof" and "evidence" are perhaps too crude and unwieldy of words to describe my arguement but I think it does make some sense. You just have to think laterally and use your imagination a bit.
Anyway, is it ok if I post a section of my article describing the jesus story found in the sun's journey through the zodiac?

"Starting on december 24 at sunset we look directly east and see the three wisemen or the stars of Orion’s belt as they follow or align with a star in the east, Sirius, the brightest star in our sky other than the sun. They are led by news of a coming saviour who will light the world. At midnight, when the sign of cancer is directly overhead and virgo is in the east, Jesus is born, three days after the winter solstice as the sun reaches it’s lowest point in the sky. Because of the curved ecliptic the sun appears to stop moving or die for those three days before it can be observed to move again. As dawn breaks we see the first glimpses of the nearly born sun. His virgin mother or the sign of virgo lies in the temple, directly above on the highest point of the ecliptic at dawn. On the western horizon lies the Praesepe (Latin for “manger”) cluster of stars in the breast of cancer attended by two stars known as the asses. On the eastern horizon lies Capricorn; the fish swimming in the lowest depths crossed with the goat who is capable of ascending the highest mountain. The scapegoat has died for our sins and is born anew. Foreshadowing his future, the cross rises in the northeast only to be eventually overpowered by the sun’s brilliance as day breaks. There is now an observable ascending movement in the sun’s place in the sky.

The continuing saga of Jesus is told through the zodiac or mazzaroth, the twelve constellations on the plane of the ecliptic that the sun moves through during the year. Each constellation represents one lunar cycle or month. It is here where we get the idea of twelve disciples.

Starting in Capricorn we see jesus as a baby grow into a child of twelve. At midday we see him in the temple most high talking with the wise men and astonishing them with his knowledge. Like in ancient egyptian society, a child until twelve and a man at thirty.

Aquarius is the next sign in our journey at 30 degrees as each sign or house occupies a 30 degree section of the three hundred and sixty degree circle in the zodiac. Aquarius represents John the Baptist baptizing Jesus with water as he passes by. The John story is particularly well played out in the stars as we will later see.

Once Jesus leaves Aquarius and moves in Pieces we see John put in prison as he disappears below the horizon and Jesus goes onto Galilee. Galilee literally means circuit, a closed loop. The sign of Pieces shows the feeding of the five thousand with two fishes and five loaves of bread. Pieces is five houses away from Virgo which is associated with the harvest of grain and Pieces itself provides the fishes. This sign is very important as a sign of Christ due to it’s alignment in the precessional cycle at the spring equinox. The next two thousand years are under the sign of the fish as the lamb of aries is sacrificed just as the old age had been.

It is at his point we reach Easter celebrations when sun rises perfectly aligned with the eastern cardinal point. He crosses the equator so that night and day are exactly balanced. Jesus is now identified as the lamb of God or the good shepherd. This is the pagan festival of rebirth as the fertile earth becomes green with plant life and lambs are born onto the world. Mary lies on her back on the western horizon accepting the light of God as this is time of the conception of Jesus, nine months before his birth near the solstice.

The sun enters the constellation of Taurus after Aries and shows the increasing power of the charging bull climbing the ecliptic or ploughing the field. We also find an important star cluster called the Pleides here. It’s seven main stars are visible with the naked eye and it may correspond to the seven disciples Jesus talks with at this time.

As the story progresses we enter into Gemini represented as the two apostle brothers, James and John. The days of summer are upon us and at the point when the sun moves out of Gemini into Cancer, we see the summer solstice. This is his transfiguration on the mount when his power is at it’s peak. The three apostles accompanying Jesus on the highest point of the ecliptic are the sign of Cancer and the twins of Gemini.

This day once was celebrated as the rebirth of John the baptist or Aquarius as we see him emerge from prison only to be decapitated by the eastern horizon. But as the day goes on he rises to be born again. His virgin mother setting on the western horizon now represents the young maiden presenting the severed head.

As we enter Cancer, the sun appears between the two asses again but this time he takes his priestly role and rides them into Jerusalem. Outstretched claws become the asses swinging tails. The crab carrying it’s house on it’s back, seems to walk sideways as the longest day has passed and the sun reverses it’s motion knowing it’s eventual fate on the cross.

The days of summer are at their hottest now and the sun enters the house of Leo the lion. At the lion’s heart, lying almost exactly on the ecliptic is the regent or king star Regulus. Jesus now takes on his kingly role as he crosses it. Herod as the personification of darkness is alarmed at the presence of the man who claims to be the messiah.

It is now the time of the harvest and Virgo arises after Leo on the horizon. This is time celebrated by the church as the birth of the virgin. In her hand she holds a bushel of grain giving us the name Bethlehem which literally translates as the “house of bread.” Jesus enters Bethany as the sun passes Virgo’s alpha star Spica - “head of wheat.” Virgo also fulfills her role as the apostle Mary Magdeline and the mother of John the baptist at his conception. At the end of the month of harvest we see the last supper where the blood and body of christ are produced by the sun’s energy and shared among the twelve.

The cool months of autumn begin as we see the constellation of Libra the scales. The harvest has been sold and winter approaches so the merchants are thrown out of the temple by the sun. It is said that he curses and withers the fig tree at this point as the fall is happening. Jesus’ fate is being weighed by those in authority.

Scorpio is represented by Judas Iscariot who gives Jesus the kiss of death or stings him as the scorpion stings the passing sun. Judas’ reward is thirty pieces of silver or the thirty day lunar cycle. As the sun leaves Scorpio Judas gives the silver back and ends his life.

Finally Jesus is handed over to the Romans when the sun rises in Sagittarius. This constellation shows the might of the Roman empire as the character Pontius Pilate. Pontius means “from the sea” as the sea of the center of the galaxy shines brightly behind him. We identify him with a centaur holding a bow and arrow or as a man on a horse holding a spear. This is the spear that eventually pierces Jesus as he is crucified. When he leaves Sagittarius, Pontius washes his hands of the sun and leaves him to his fate.

It is upon the cross where Jesus is placed between Sagittarius and Capricorn at the solstice when the sun reaches it’s minimum point of 23.5 degrees. He dies on that day only to be placed in a cave and reborn three days later on the 25th. The crucifixion though is celebrated at Easter since this is the time of his conception and according to the church, true birth. Jesus dies each year at the same time and is reborn in a cave.

The story of Jesus Christ is not a sad one however because it is cyclical. Just as the body dies the spirit lives on and is born again. Herod or darkness tries to prevent his rising but fails every time."
 
I'll say this:

Let's say an Ice Age or some other life altering disaster (many nukes) hit us right now for some extreme hypothetical reason and destroyed the world as we know it. 2,000 years after the disaster hit, there will be myths which exist about how great society used to be. There used to be automobiles and buildings which reached the heavens. There used to be radios, electric lights, etc., etc.

After a certain amount of time, anything becomes hard to believe with no trace of records, regardless of whether it was true or not.
 
*************
M*W: Great post! I think the astro-theological take on the gospels is their true meaning. Even the stories in the OT are myths created by the ancients while they were gazing at the night sky. I believe that to be the very first 'religion.' All other religions evolved out of astro-theology. Interestingly, I would bet ancient man who created the myths did it more for entertainment than for something real to believe in. All religions are man made, which proves there is no god.
 
I think I know what you mean nds1. History is just a lie that has been agreed upon. Was it Napoleon who said that? The more famous line from Braveheart says something like, "it is the victors who write the history books." It bothers me that we know relatively little about our past - four thousand years since history has been written down? I don't know if people will look back at us and say how great our society was though. I hope they will but as a civilization, we make some pretty irrational decisions

I've uploaded a little animation of the sun's progress through the zodiac to Youtube. It's choppy as hell but it works for now. Here's the link:
youtube.com/watch?v=UALpHzatfnY


If you have an hour to kill, here's a documentary on Joseph Campbell called the "Power of Myth" He apparently influenced George Lucas when he was writing Star Wars. He explains the archetypal hero myth better than I ever could.
video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6312400129079706710&q=joe+campbell

You're right Iasion, I should be able to back up my claims. Is there anything that stands out for you? Any criticism would be appreciated.
 
draqon said:
Jesus existed, bible wouldn't be without him.
Click to expand...

Osiris existed, Egypt's myths wouldn't be without him.

Odysseus existed, the Illiad wouldn't be without him.

Krishna existed, the Gita wouldn't be without him.

James Bond existed, the books wouldn't be without him.

Silly argument - that a book's existence means the characters exist.


Iasion
 
Greetings,

techmoney said:
Hi Iasion, thanks for the reply.
I still standby the fact the there was little evidence given in this thread of a mythic Christ.
Click to expand...

So,
you didn't even bother to read my many detailed posts with explicit citations you can check ?

techmoney said:
There was certainly lots that he didn't exist as a human but I'm not sure if this can be taken as proof of his mythical existance.
Click to expand...

What on earth does that mean?


techmoney said:
The cites to my claim are found when you look up.
Stellarium (stellarium.org) is a free astronomy program that easily allows you to see the stars as the appear in the night sky.
Click to expand...

So, your entire argument rests on your personal imagination - your opinion that the night sky matches the Gospel story?

That's all you have?


Iasion
 
Hi again. Iasion, I said before I read you're posts. They we're all great and have really quieted the earthly Jesus crowd.
When I refer to myth, I don't mean it was a lie or a falsehood. A myth is a traditional story that serves to explain the world view of a people. When the Jesus story was originally written about it was accepted as a story or myth but through corruption by the Roman church it became literal history. Followers of Osiris, Krishna, Mithra all knew their gods were mythic, characters in a story. We somehow forgot this about our god.
All cultures have these mythic hero stories and they all are very similar. I'm most familar with the NT story but I know alot of other pagan religions are played out in the stars too. Horus was the sun long before Jesus was.
I'm just a humble neophyte but my arguements are valid. All I'm saying is that Christianity is heavily influenced by astronomy (I'd say astrology but that isn't taken seriously anymore) Dates of religious festivals coincide with zodiacal risings and solar events. Christian symbols like the cross are modified Gnostic sun crosses.
Iasion, time to cool it. Since you accused me of plagiarism in a reply to my first post you have come back with nothing but nonsense. i have said on more than one occasion that I have read your posts. It doesn't seem like you read any of mine though. If you have read them you certainly haven't invested a second's thought as your last post demonstrates. If you're goal is too drive people away with rude comments you're starting to succeed.
It is my opinion that the night sky not only matches the Gospel story - it is the Gospel story. Jesus is the sun. Yes, Iasion, that's all I have.
 
Iasion said:
Osiris existed, Egypt's myths wouldn't be without him.

Odysseus existed, the Illiad wouldn't be without him.

Krishna existed, the Gita wouldn't be without him.

James Bond existed, the books wouldn't be without him.

Silly argument - that a book's existence means the characters exist.


Iasion
Click to expand...

Bible is unlike any book. It is a highly logical set of statements, very ambiguous in nature...that could only be created when only truth was spoken. Thus Bible does not lie...it is very ambiguous in what it speaks but the story of Jesus touched too many details not to be seen as that which happened.
 
techmoney said:
Hi again. Iasion, I said before I read you're posts. They we're all great and have really quieted the earthly Jesus crowd. When I refer to myth, I don't mean it was a lie or a falsehood. A myth is a traditional story that serves to explain the world view of a people. When the Jesus story was originally written about it was accepted as a story or myth but through corruption by the Roman church it became literal history. Followers of Osiris, Krishna, Mithra all knew their gods were mythic, characters in a story. We somehow forgot this about our god. All cultures have these mythic hero stories and they all are very similar. I'm most familar with the NT story but I know alot of other pagan religions are played out in the stars too. Horus was the sun long before Jesus was.
I'm just a humble neophyte but my arguements are valid. All I'm saying is that Christianity is heavily influenced by astronomy (I'd say astrology but that isn't taken seriously anymore) Dates of religious festivals coincide with zodiacal risings and solar events. Christian symbols like the cross are modified Gnostic sun crosses.
Iasion, time to cool it. Since you accused me of plagiarism in a reply to my first post you have come back with nothing but nonsense. i have said on more than one occasion that I have read your posts. It doesn't seem like you read any of mine though. If you have read them you certainly haven't invested a second's thought as your last post demonstrates. If you're goal is too drive people away with rude comments you're starting to succeed. It is my opinion that the night sky not only matches the Gospel story - it is the Gospel story. Jesus is the sun. Yes, Iasion, that's all I have.
Click to expand...

*************
M*W: techmoney, I'm truly impressed by your knowledge of 'astronomy' representing the gospel stories. I prefer to call it astro-theology where Jesus and God are both represented by the sun abd vice versa. It's simple, really, when one starts to transplant astro characters in the place of the gospel characters, it all comes together and makes sense.

I like the analogy of the sun being the creator god of the universe (at least our universe). The power and energy of the sun melted the icecaps and live was formed in the warmer waters of the deep. Eventually these organisms crawled upon land. Eventually man came and learned to till the soil and thanked the sun for it's power and promise to keep them alive and the agrarian society was born. The rain, storms and elements came, but ancient many could always depend on the sun to see them through.

The sun died every evening but rose again the next morning. The night, a time of darkness, was thought to be evil. Ancient man created stories out of the stars in the sky. They later became man made religions, but somehow later human beings forgot that religions were originally based on myth. The sun who was the original creator god is now just the center of our solar system, and the god the sun used to be has become a free-standing and omnipotent sky daddy who has been credited with the entirety of life of our being. Sadly, many people still believe this as gospel truth, but this is just myth. Everything they knew to believe in their genetic memory has been tainted by the man made religions on earth. Everything man made religions have taught has been a pack of lies.

I look forward to the day when the majority of people realize that all life is based on the sun's energy, not some old man in the sky. There are no true religions. It's better to not believe in anything than to believe a lie.

I look forward to reading more of your posts. I hope everyone else will as well. Thank you!
 
Thanks again M*W. It is good to know that somebody gets what I'm talking about. Your positive comments will give me the little nudge I need to continue.
Yeah, astrotheology is a better word to describe the astronomy references in the bible. How did you first arrive at the conclusion that Jesus never lived as a man but was a metaphor for the sun?
I like the idea of Jesus being the sun too. This is where our ideas may diverge a little here but - this knowledge has actually strengthened my belief in a God. I find it very empowering to think the godforce wasn't just relocated in one man but is present in all of us. (Sol - soul) I have a suspicion that when the Lord's Prayer speaks of "on earth as it is in heaven" it is saying that the gospel story played out in the stars also works on a microscopic scale and has relevance for each of us. A great crime was committed when the Roman church told people that only Jesus was divine and that the only contact we would have with God would be through them.
So really, I'm not sure which side I'm on in this debate. I believe Christ exists but not as one man from history. Make sense or have I just complicated an already complicated issue?
 
techmoney said:
Thanks again M*W. It is good to know that somebody gets what I'm talking about. Your positive comments will give me the little nudge I need to continue. Yeah, astrotheology is a better word to describe the astronomy references in the bible. How did you first arrive at the conclusion that Jesus never lived as a man but was a metaphor for the sun?
I like the idea of Jesus being the sun too. This is where our ideas may diverge a little here but - this knowledge has actually strengthened my belief in a God. I find it very empowering to think the godforce wasn't just relocated in one man but is present in all of us. (Sol - soul) I have a suspicion that when the Lord's Prayer speaks of "on earth as it is in heaven" it is saying that the gospel story played out in the stars also works on a microscopic scale and has relevance for each of us. A great crime was committed when the Roman church told people that only Jesus was divine and that the only contact we would have with God would be through them.
So really, I'm not sure which side I'm on in this debate. I believe Christ exists but not as one man from history. Make sense or have I just complicated an already complicated issue?
Click to expand...

*************
M*W: I believe there are a few members here who accept the idea that the sun was god, then Jesus became the sun of god, etc. I've come to believe this the past year. Had I not been searching and trying to understand the symbolism of it all, I would not have come to this point. I'm an atheist. Christians don't want to learn anything, because they're afraid something my conflict with what they've been brainwashed to believe. It's sad, really. They have absolutely no idea who or what god is. Not that I believe in sun worship. I don't, but I understand that's what ancient humans believed, and it evolved from there.

Yes, you are correct. The Roman church fathers created the divine Jesus for their own greedy purposes. Even today the RCC still embraces many astrological symbols in its worship. The pope carries around a scepter that is a sunburst. When I went to Rome and visited St. Peter's, I was a good Catholic at the time, but I noticed how many pagan and astrological symbols were there. There is nothing truthful about christianity.

Although you are christian, I admire you for continuing to research. Not many christians do that out of fear. I was one of them, too, and it's a good thing that I kept on reading to get me where I am today. I can't imagine any other belief system now that I'm an atheist. Humankind began as atheists, then they created gods for every imaginable thing.

If one re-reads the bible, both old and new testaments, with an astro-theological perspective, it becomes quite clear that the bible is an astrological calendar, especially the new testament. God is the Sun, Jesus is the Sun of god, the 12 disciples are the 12 signs of the zodiac. The 12 tribes of Israel are the 12 signs of the zodiac. Abraham is represented by the Sign of Aries (the ram who replaced Isaac). Moses is associated with the Sign of Taurus (the bull -- golden calf). Jesus was associated with his mother, the Sign of Virgo (the virgin). Jesus himself was represented by the Sign of Pisces (the fish). John the Baptist was associated with the Sign of Aquarius (the water-bearer). Jesus and Thomas are associated with the Sign of Gemini (the twins). Judas is represented by the Sign of Scorpio (the back biter). The Sign of Leo (the lion) will lay down with the Sign of Aries (the lamb). The Sign of Aries (the lamb of god) is the sign of Spring when new light comes into the world as the days get longer. "Lamb of god, you take away the sins (darkness of Winter) of the world." All symbolic but nothing truly christian!
 
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