Did Jesus exist?

TW Scott said:
You know I was just realizing something, everyone here has always claimed that the person making the claim is the one that has to provide the proof. Now Theists, quite arguably, are not making the claim. Not one of them has originated the idea that a higher power exists. That has been a truth that has been handed down from one generation to the next. Not a single culture on this planet refuted this truth. in fact they embraced the opposite. Be it one God or many each and evey culture has worshiped a higher power.

Now here comes Atheist attempting to tell the theists that they have to have concrete prrof. This tiny minority seeks to impose tests and conditions on a higher power. They seek to subjugate the higher power to silly whims. They reason that a higher power must have some form insecuirity, a need to prove itself. Then when their ridiculous test experiment fails they cry "See? We told you so. There is no God." It is sad really. They use this so called "Lack of Evidence." as proof, when all it really does is proove that no High Power took part of the test. Much like if you were testing which candy bar kids like better and all of the kids are allergic to the chocolate in both.
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I agree, tests on superstitious subjects are dumb. Why even test something as redundant as prayer? For scientific testing, you first have to witness any positive results of prayer, and we already understand 'answered' prayers as things that had a chance of happening anyway.

But you act as though god is the only superstition handed down through cultures. It's not. All of our superstitions exist because we live in a universe unconcerned with our wants and needs. Why would the universe care about our wishes? Sometimes things go our way and sometimes they don't (and ultimately, they don't). The universe has no desire either way.

Why should prayer work? Why should the position of the stars and planets influence our daily lives? Why should there be a caring creator? Why should there be an afterlife? Why should this lump of coal bring me luck?

Believers need not justify X superstition being true, because we already know that superstition is just a comfort blanket.

Wait untill you have some evidence, instead of just a lack of evidence.
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We never will. I don't need to refrain from discrediting the celestial teapot until evidence comes forward. But nobody believes in that anyway. Billions do believe in Astrology, prayer, afterlife, god, lucky horse shoes etc. And they are as rediculous.
 
omg :(

im so sorry that was a big mistake i misstyped it because i typed ina hurry


:)

i meant jesus = Isa

im so sorry for that
 
Iasion said:
Greetings,



So,
you claim Jesus = Moses?

Interesting.

Then you quote something, possibly al-Qur'an, which says :

Further, that He may warn those (also) who say, "Allah hath begotten a son":

No knowledge have they of such a thing, nor had their fathers. It is a grievous thing that issues from their mouths as a saying: What they say is nothing but falsehood!

Which simply seems to argue that
Allah did NOT have a son.

A totally different thing.

Please explain.

Iasion
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thank you for giving me attension of my mistake

i said that i corrected it

i meant Jesus = Isa = the messiah son of miriam



.............

i don't know what do you want me to explain ,

actually Jesus is not the son of God , but jesus is a great prophet , he was sent by ALLAH before the last prophet muhammad peace be upon them both.

i mentioned this before that al-Qur'an is the words of God directly sent to people via prophet muhammad .

i gave you the truth came directly from God himself , he says that those who say that God has a son are liars .


God is great , he is unique , he is not similar to humans , he doesn't need a son ,

don't underestimate your God .

thank you
 
I thought this was interesting. The following is from the King James version of the bible.


Luke 3:23-38
23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,

25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,

26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,

27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,

28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,

29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,

30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,

31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,

32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,

33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,

34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,

35 Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,

36 Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,

37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,

38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
KJV


Apparently, the author of Luke can list the descendants of Jesus all the way up to Adam. Truly amazing.

So what exactly is the purpose of listing this? How accurate is it? It it meant to be literal or another "symbol"?
 
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Yeh, we are somewhere around the 140th generation from Adam and Eve.

The ten pre-Flood kings are corroborated with the ten of Babylonian legend, and the ten pre-Flood pitris of Chinese legend, and ancient Welsh, Irish, and Nordic records show patriarchs such as Noe and Sesfef (Japeth), so it is real history, the Table of Nations, Genesis 10 of the Bible, nicely laysout the dispersion labels of the major tribes in the centuries after the Deluge, a nice record for archaeologists and etymologists.
 
muhammad said:
i gave you the truth came directly from God himself...

God is great , he is unique , he is not similar to humans , he doesn't need a son ,

don't underestimate your God .
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When you start bleating nonsense like that, you lose all credibility and sound like a nutter on a street corner.
 
Why the existence of Jesus could be true:

There doesn't seem to be a motive for people of the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd centuries to write the Gospels other than if what they wrote was true, or if God ordered them to. Why else would they write the Gospel about Jesus? It doesn't seem likely that the writers wanted fame, since they all wrote as anonymous authors. Also, before the Edict of Milan from Roman Emperor Constantine 1 issued in 313, writing about Jesus or spreading the teaching or word of Jesus would have resulted in immediate execution. So the people who wrote the Gospels couldn't have been writing for fame, wealth, or social status.

So what could their motive have been? Were all the writers in on a big hoax to fool everyone? This also seems highly unlikely as well since Christians were being excecuted around the time the Gospels were written. So why would the Gospel writers even have risked being caught and brutally executed?

It seems more likely that the writers of the Gospels wrote them because they believed that they were the truth.

Also, the life of Jesus must have had a significant effect on people since we measure time based on his birth year. The teachings of Jesus were unorthodox for its time, but seem to be solid and truthful.

Why the extistence of Jesus could be false:

Where is the line drawn between myths or symbolism and literal reality in the Bible? The story of Adam and Eve seems to be symbolic, not literal. The murder of Cain by Abel seems to be more symbolic than reality. The parting of the Red Sea by Moses seems to be more sybolic than reality. Where is the line drawn?

Also, some of the miracles presented in the Bible seem way too extreme to be true. How can two loaves bread and a couple fish feed 5000 people? How could Jesus have turned water into wine, or brought a dead man who was in his grave back to life? Why aren't there any other writings from the time of Jesus about any of these miracles? Or are these miracles written in the Bible as another symbol in order to make a point?

It is interesting that the Gospels are so vague about the miracles of Jesus when it mentions them. There is little, if any, detail about any of these law-defying miracles. Couldn't John or the other Gospel writers have elaborated a bit more on some of these miracles? Don't just write "Jesus turned water into wine. The End." The vagueness of the descriptions of the miracles makes them seem almost fabricated or made up.

Why were verses 9-20 in the Gospel of Mark added? Why didn't Mark write about the Resurecction of Jesus in his original gospel? This seems odd.

In the Gospels, "visions" are mentioned a lot. These visions, the way they are written in the Bible, sound fabricated. It seems like every religion is started by visions, but if every man has a different vision, then which vision is right? Also, it's easy for someone to think they had a vision when it could have just been a dream.

One more problem. The Bible, from my understanding, is basically a translation of a translation of translation... of the orginal written document of the Gospels. The translators could have have interpreted the meanings of the words any way they chose too. We have no way to know. With all these translations it seems highly unlikely that the current English bible we all own is anything like the orignal written text. The original text could have been spun any way the translators wanted.
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There are much more facts either in support of or against the existence of Jesus, but I just listed a few that were on my mind at the time.
 
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(Q) said:
When you start bleating nonsense like that, you lose all credibility and sound like a nutter on a street corner.
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what nonsense do you mean ??

saying that a great and unique God doesn't need a son is nonsense ???


saying that God is not weak and he is not similar to us is nonsense ??



saying that jesus although he was great prophet , he eats and enters the toilette , he is a human , is nonsense ???



you underestimate your God and your thoughts about your God will get you in Hell if you die on your belief and stay athiest i assure this to you .

do whatever you want , im not here to fight you or fight people , im here because i love people and i don't want any human to suffer forever after this short life is gone .





thank you .
 
Jesus said:

"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes to the Father but by me."

Therefore, Muhammed, Jesus either is who He says He is, or he is a liar or a lunatic, He is either the Son of God, or a nutter, and if a nutter, he obviously should never be considered to be a prophet to be revered.
 
Muhammad,

What your views on the Holy Trinity? Do Muslims believe in the idea of a "Holy Ghost" as presented in the Bible?

Also, for anyone who wants to answer, what role does the Holy Ghost play in anything in terms of Christianity?
 
Jesus calls the Holy Ghost "the Comfortor," and the Holy Ghost enters new believers to live, and fills believers to empower them to preach, or have the faith to catalyze healings, and the Holy Ghost is known as the "hound of heaven," Who chases down, so to speak, those Who are destined to be His children.
 
Why else would they write the Gospel about Jesus?
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Why all the other human myths? Humans evolved to have such big brains partially through the mechanism of neoteny, the retaining of infant traits into adulthood. Infants have proportionally larger brains for their body size. One quality of children is that it is advantageous for them to believe what they are told. If your parents say, "don't swim in that river because of crocodiles", you don't want them to test out that hypothesis first. So, children are gullible, adults learn to be skeptical. Human evolved so quickly that they are now less able to give up gullibility. Either that, or it becomes a habit.

Mythology and supertition arise naturally, even in lower animals. Irrational beliefs are sometimes reinforced. Horoscopes are sometimes pertinent to the reader, and so religion is born.

Therefore, Muhammed, Jesus either is who He says He is, or he is a liar or a lunatic, He is either the Son of God, or a nutter, and if a nutter, he obviously should never be considered to be a prophet to be revered.
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Or he never said that. Or the meaning is different that you think. Not that Jesus himself is the keeper of the gateway to truth, but that all spiritual paths end up having the same qualities.
 
IceAge,

Thanks for the response. Is what you described similiar to the concept of being baptized by the Holy Ghost? I think Christianity presents 2 types of baptizm: Baptism by water and baptism by the Holy Ghost.

Basically, if you aren't baptized by the Holy Ghost can the Holy Ghost still be in you? I don't fully understand this.
 
Yes, all believers have the Holy Ghost within them, but the Holy Ghost "fills" them, anointing if you will, for specific tasks.

Baptism by water is what believers are intsructed to do after being saved, and the baptism by the Holy Ghost is the "filling" for tasks, and/or in worship.
 
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