And I believe that closes the argument, since the whole thing in question is whether or not creationism belongs in SCIENCE CLASSROOMS or not. I wrote that nice and slowly in caps, because some people tend to go off the point and go on and on about people's lack of faith. Sure, sure faith is good, it's all wholesome in a religion classroom but not in a SCIENCE CLASSROOM.
Creationism vs. science
- Thread starter MRC_Hans
- Start date
"In fact maybe indeed life of a rock is also a level of soul (though again i have not heard of this but is yet to research it now that u brought it out), ask scientist... "
Any scientist will tell you there is no "rock force" and there is no "life force". A rock exists mainly because of the electromagnetic properties in the molocules that make up the rock. Same with a human or any other life form.
"no scientific proof that one species changed into another species"
Evolution is fact. The mechanism for evolution is the only remotely debatable thing. If you take biology, you will learn stuff like mad.
What about the genetic similarities between ALL life forms? Most life on earth has above 70% similarity in DNA.
What about viruses that mutate into resistant forms? Happens all the time, HIV, thousands of "cold" strains.
What about the striking similarities between monkeys, pre-humans, and neo-humans (modern humans)?
What about the statistical evidence supporting sexual reproduction? If you learn about genetics, you will realize that every human is effectively different from their parents. DNA undergoes crossing over which transfers genes around to make a DNA molecule that is completely different from any other. Have you ever heard of a mutation?
"maybe one day science will find a certain animal species that are related to a plant species, they could find that."
Related how? Every life form on earth is genetically related. Woulnd't that support evolution?
Any scientist will tell you there is no "rock force" and there is no "life force". A rock exists mainly because of the electromagnetic properties in the molocules that make up the rock. Same with a human or any other life form.
"no scientific proof that one species changed into another species"
Evolution is fact. The mechanism for evolution is the only remotely debatable thing. If you take biology, you will learn stuff like mad.
What about the genetic similarities between ALL life forms? Most life on earth has above 70% similarity in DNA.
What about viruses that mutate into resistant forms? Happens all the time, HIV, thousands of "cold" strains.
What about the striking similarities between monkeys, pre-humans, and neo-humans (modern humans)?
What about the statistical evidence supporting sexual reproduction? If you learn about genetics, you will realize that every human is effectively different from their parents. DNA undergoes crossing over which transfers genes around to make a DNA molecule that is completely different from any other. Have you ever heard of a mutation?
"maybe one day science will find a certain animal species that are related to a plant species, they could find that."
Related how? Every life form on earth is genetically related. Woulnd't that support evolution?
FRENCHENEEZ, U ALMOST, just almost got me earlier when you asked about Rock's existence, because I never dealt with that question before, but because of this u typed, YOU LOSED ONCE AGAIN. U SAID "ELECTROMAGNETIC PROPERTIES IN THE MOLECULES MAKE UP THE ROCK, AND SAME WITH A HUMAN OR ANY OTHER LIFE FORM, WELL THEN SINCE SUCH THINGS ARE ACCESSIBLE THEN WHY CANT YOU PROVE YOUR CLAIM? WHY THEN CANT SCIENCE CREATE A LIFE FORM IF IT HAS NO SOUL? THIS IS HARD FACTS, FACT THAT NO SCIENTIST CAN CREATE A LIFE FORM CONSIDERING ALL THE MODERN TECHNOLOGY SCIENCE HAVE TO OFFER, Now Im not taking away your wishfull thinking, u can still fantasize about human intelligence being like God and giving life, but then again I reserve to scientific facts, PERIOD, NOT TO PSYCHIC HOTLINE AND HOROSCOPE, AND NOW THAT YOU CONFIRMED IT FOR ME, ROCKS IS ALSO A LEVEL OF SOUL (WOW, THANKS FOR THE INFO FRENCH)
FRENCH WHAT ABOUT THE GENETIC SIMILARITIES BETWEEN ALL LIFE FORMS, YOU SAY 70%? SAY 99.99%, SO WHAT? WHAT'S YOUR POINT? THAT MR. EARTHQUAKE CREATED THE LIFE FORM BY "CHANCE" AND NOT "INTELLIGENCE"? FOR THE THOUSAND TIMES, I DO ACCEPT EVOLUTION AND SO DOES THE CHURCH, I DONOT DISAGREE WITH THINGS EVOLVING, FROM TECHNOLOGY TO BIOLOGY, THATS COMMON SENSE. INDEED THERE ARE STRIKING SIMILARITIES BETWEEN HUMANS AND ALL ANIMAL SPECIES, FOR WE AND ALL CREATURES CAME FROM EARTH (DUST) AND FROM EARTH WE BELONG. WE ARE MADE OUT OF THE SAME STUFF, FROM CATS TO HUMANS, I DONT DOUBT THAT, YOU CAN EVEN MAKE THE SIMILARITIES 99.99%, HOW DOES IT MATTER? WE EVOLVE, MAYBE FROM A SINGLED CELL. ARE YOU PROPOSING THAT BY "CHANCE" WE EXIST, THEN THAT WILL BE BACK TO TOPIC NUMBER 1, WHICH IS "PROVE IT".
EVOLUTION IS A FACT AS MUCH AS GOD THE CREATOR IS A FACT. I DO BELIEVE IN BOTH. THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC PROOF THAT ONE SPECIES CHANGED TO ANOTHER, ALTHOUGH THERE ARE TONS OF EVIDENCE THAT SUPPORTS THIS, IT STILL LACKS EXPERIMENTATION AND DEMONSTRATION TO COMPLETE THE OBSERVATION. NOW I DO BELIEVE IN EVOLUTION BECAUSE IT IS EVIDENT, AS EVIDENT AS GOD THE HIGHER INTELLIGENCE, THOUGH GOD HAS NOT COME DOWN ON EARTH TO DEMONSTRATE HOW HE CREATED LIFE, INTELLIGENCE IS PROVEN, THOUGH EVOLUTION HAS NOT DEMONSTRATED ONE SPECIES CHANGE TO ANOTHER (BECAUSE THIS WILL NEED TIME) BUT DNA MUTATION IS EVIDENT, BOTH ARE CLAIMS WITH PROOF, THEREFORE I ACCEPT BOTH.
ARE YOU TAKING THE BOOK OF GENESIS LITERALLY ONCE AGAIN HAVING GOD FORMING THE FIRST HUMAN SPECIES (ADAM) OUT OF CLAY USING HIS GIGANTIC HANDS WITH HIS FINGER AS BIG AS MY LEGS, 6,000 YEARS AGO AND KISSING HIM THEN HE CAME TO LIFE, U TAKING THAT LITERALLY AGAIN? LOL, ARE U PICTURING GOD WITH LONG WHITE BEARD ABOUT 12 FEET TALL AND SITS IN A GOLD CHAIR ON THE CLOUDS, LOL, THATS HOW CARTOONS MAKE HIM APPEAR. HOW CUTE, WELL ANYWAYS...ONCE AGAIN, THE BIBLE IMPLIES THE FIRST INTERACTION WITH GOD TO HUMANS NOT A FIRST LITERALL HUMAN SPECIES, BUT THE CHURCH WAS BORN, GOD'S INTERACTION WITH US, THROUGH ADAM AND EVE, SIN CAME INTO THE WORLD FOR THE LAWS CAME TO EXISTENCE "WHERE THERE IS NO LAW THERE IS NO SIN". WHY DID GOD REVEALED HIMSELF TO US THIS LATE? THAT IS ANOTHER WAY OF SAYING WHY EDUCATE YOUR 2 YRS OLD KID WITH ADVANCED PHYSICS. OUR BRAIN AT THE TIME SIMPLY CANNOT HANDLE GOD. OUR MIND HAS NOT EVOLVED TO THAT POINT YET, AS A 2 YRS OLD CHILD SIMPLY CANNOT UNDERSTAND ADVANCED PHYSICS, HIS BRAIN HASNT MATURE YET.
God's time is different from ours. Take Joseph the dreamer for example, as a young kid (about 12 yrs old) he had a dream that one day his father and all his brothers will bow down before him (as translated but was symbolical in dream). His brothers attempted to kill him because of that, but instead one of the brothers pity him and sold him to the egyptians so they can atleast get money, better than killing him and get nothing out of it. Many years later, joseph was gifted in translating dreams and became the pharoas right hand, in fact he was so wise that he has the same figure of authority as the pharoah, he was given his own land, and slaves, then famine struck the whole entire land that it affected the place where his father and brothers lived, that they came to egypt to get some food, but all who came to buy food has to go through joseph and joseph remembered his brothers, etc. to make the story short, they came bowing down to joseph in high respect of his authority.
YOU SEE 40 YEARS TO US CAN BE ONE DAY TO GOD, GOD DO THINGS BEAUTIFULLY IN HIS TIME. EVOLUTION MAY TAKE MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF YEARS FOR OUR HUMAN BRAIN TO EVOLVE OF WHAT IS WHAT WE HAVE NOW, BUT WHO ARE WE TO SAY THAT THIS IS A LONG TIME? TO US MAYBE, BUT TO GOD THIS IS PROBABLY JUST 6 DAYS! WHO KNOWS!
YOU SEE 40 YEARS TO US CAN BE ONE DAY TO GOD, GOD DO THINGS BEAUTIFULLY IN HIS TIME. EVOLUTION MAY TAKE MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF YEARS FOR OUR HUMAN BRAIN TO EVOLVE OF WHAT IS WHAT WE HAVE NOW, BUT WHO ARE WE TO SAY THAT THIS IS A LONG TIME? TO US MAYBE, BUT TO GOD THIS IS PROBABLY JUST 6 DAYS! WHO KNOWS!
Muscle:
You know, its plum hard to read all them versals. Your message would get through much better if you typed normally, divided it into neat paragraps, etc.
For instance, you have now posted thousands of words, but this is the first time I have noticed you saying you accept evolution. Maybe you said it before, but I missed it in all those sceaming versals.
So what you and I would be discussing is the gap between amino acids, and the first cell. You believe God filled it, I believe it might have been filled by (the unconscious) Nature.
What is all the exitement about, then?
Hans
You know, its plum hard to read all them versals. Your message would get through much better if you typed normally, divided it into neat paragraps, etc.
For instance, you have now posted thousands of words, but this is the first time I have noticed you saying you accept evolution. Maybe you said it before, but I missed it in all those sceaming versals.
So what you and I would be discussing is the gap between amino acids, and the first cell. You believe God filled it, I believe it might have been filled by (the unconscious) Nature.
What is all the exitement about, then?
Hans
I dont know why u didnt realize Han, something about atheist ears, I have mentioned numerous times that I accept evolution, why? Because the church accepts it and Im a catechist teacher, we r taught to accept all scientific facts, FACTS, not theories w/no evidence...
"You believe God filled it, I believe it might have been filled by (the unconscious) Nature."
This topic has been going on for a while now, I believe an intelligence filled it, yes, why? Because like evolution, intelligence is evident.
You believe that some NON-EXISTENT nature thingy, A PROOFLESS CLAIM, A CLAIM WITHOUT EVIDENCE, MIGHT HAVE filled the gap between amino acids and the first cell, u said "might have"- admitting that this is a guess, just another word to replace "CHANCE", or "FREAK ACCIDENT".
Hans, anyone can use that reason, if someone broke in my neighor's house and I witnessed the robbers but afraid to testify to the police, if the police said "How did his house got robbed, explain in detail and show me proof", I can say "Ohhh no there was no robber, what are you talking about, it was by CHANCE that her appliances disappeared, the wind carry it out then series of lightning melted it, though there is no proof of this, BUT I BELIEVE THIS MORE THAN ROBBERS COMING IN THE HOUSE" .
"You believe God filled it, I believe it might have been filled by (the unconscious) Nature."
This topic has been going on for a while now, I believe an intelligence filled it, yes, why? Because like evolution, intelligence is evident.
You believe that some NON-EXISTENT nature thingy, A PROOFLESS CLAIM, A CLAIM WITHOUT EVIDENCE, MIGHT HAVE filled the gap between amino acids and the first cell, u said "might have"- admitting that this is a guess, just another word to replace "CHANCE", or "FREAK ACCIDENT".
Hans, anyone can use that reason, if someone broke in my neighor's house and I witnessed the robbers but afraid to testify to the police, if the police said "How did his house got robbed, explain in detail and show me proof", I can say "Ohhh no there was no robber, what are you talking about, it was by CHANCE that her appliances disappeared, the wind carry it out then series of lightning melted it, though there is no proof of this, BUT I BELIEVE THIS MORE THAN ROBBERS COMING IN THE HOUSE" .
hey c'mon now goofy, your black, you know better, your suppose to believe in God, why are you tripping for? I cant picture you wearing goth shirt like Xev and singing songs dedicated to the devil (mayb cuz he wants to get tanned in hell) but u goofy ur tanned enough as u r (j/k). There is proof of God and tons of it, just seek and you shall find, dont expect the treasure to look for you, you look for it ok?
Thanks for your stereotypical comment; this definitely helps us in appreciating your argument.
There are no things proven in science. There are no facts, just theories that are well-justified.
This example is unrelated to the existence of god. god does not visit daily, nor does god do things that are blaringly obvious as god's actions. the existence of god may be well-confirmed in your eyes, but his non-existence is just as well-confirmed. where have you stumbled upon this one scientific fact, this one little piece of data that for some reason you know is true and there is no way it could ever be false? you have shown us your argument; if it is so obvious to you, why does *everyone* else have a problem with it? is it because we are short-sighted atheists? or because we are just stupid? or is it because we are too caught up in our beliefs to even consider an alternative argument?
'YOU LOSED ONCE AGAIN"
Losed huh? English is your first language right?
"THIS IS HARD FACTS, FACT THAT NO SCIENTIST CAN CREATE A LIFE FORM CONSIDERING ALL THE MODERN TECHNOLOGY SCIENCE HAVE TO OFFER"
Sure, it IS hard fact. Yet I think that is hardly proof of a soul or god. It is ALSO hard fact that no scientist has created a ship that can travel to another star, but do you now think it is impossible for us to do so?
" I DONOT DISAGREE WITH THINGS EVOLVING"
So you're saying that god created the first life form, but that that life evolved into what we have now? Am I correct? If thats right, i completely missed this part of your beliefs (thats why I asked you to spell them out for us).
"ARE YOU PROPOSING THAT BY "CHANCE" WE EXIST"
No I am not. I have said this multiple times: I don't believe in chance. I belive in a deterministic mechanical universe. In that sense, Life evolved according to the laws of phisics.
"THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC PROOF THAT ONE SPECIES CHANGED TO ANOTHER, ALTHOUGH THERE ARE TONS OF EVIDENCE THAT SUPPORTS THIS"
There is no scientific proof for anything by this definition.
"OUR BRAIN AT THE TIME SIMPLY CANNOT HANDLE GOD."
Anyone can "handle" the idea of a god. It is very much analagous to the father of a household. He is master and we shall obey. All they have to know is that "god did it", because god did everything. It must be the simplest concept in the history of thought - dominance of the master.
So, if you don't believe in litteral by-the-bible genisis, what do you believe?
Losed huh? English is your first language right?
"THIS IS HARD FACTS, FACT THAT NO SCIENTIST CAN CREATE A LIFE FORM CONSIDERING ALL THE MODERN TECHNOLOGY SCIENCE HAVE TO OFFER"
Sure, it IS hard fact. Yet I think that is hardly proof of a soul or god. It is ALSO hard fact that no scientist has created a ship that can travel to another star, but do you now think it is impossible for us to do so?
" I DONOT DISAGREE WITH THINGS EVOLVING"
So you're saying that god created the first life form, but that that life evolved into what we have now? Am I correct? If thats right, i completely missed this part of your beliefs (thats why I asked you to spell them out for us).
"ARE YOU PROPOSING THAT BY "CHANCE" WE EXIST"
No I am not. I have said this multiple times: I don't believe in chance. I belive in a deterministic mechanical universe. In that sense, Life evolved according to the laws of phisics.
"THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC PROOF THAT ONE SPECIES CHANGED TO ANOTHER, ALTHOUGH THERE ARE TONS OF EVIDENCE THAT SUPPORTS THIS"
There is no scientific proof for anything by this definition.
"OUR BRAIN AT THE TIME SIMPLY CANNOT HANDLE GOD."
Anyone can "handle" the idea of a god. It is very much analagous to the father of a household. He is master and we shall obey. All they have to know is that "god did it", because god did everything. It must be the simplest concept in the history of thought - dominance of the master.
So, if you don't believe in litteral by-the-bible genisis, what do you believe?
AGAIN FRENCH, I DONOT SPEAK FOR THE PSHYCHIC HOTLINE, YOU ARE FREE TO HOPE FOR THAT DAY WHEN HUMANS BECOME LIKE GOD AND CAN CREATE A LIFE FORM FROM SCRATCH, AS WE ARE FREE TO HOPE FOR OUR GLORIOUS DAY.. OK?
"ARE YOU PROPOSING THAT BY "CHANCE" WE EXIST"
AGAIN, QUANTUM PHSYICS, QUANTUM MECHANICS, SUPER FREAKAZOID BARBER SHOP, AAMCO MECHANICS, WHATEVER YOU CALL IT, THE FACT REMAINS, THERE IS NO PROOF THAT SOME INVISIBLE THINGY CALLED QUANTUM PHYSICS CREATED LIFE FORMS, PERI0D, HOWEVER, INTELLIGENCE IN THE OTHER HAND IS PROVEN.
NO THERE IS, YOU JUST REFUSE TO ACCEPT THE THE TRUTH. THAT EVOLUTION IS A FACT AS MUCH AS GOD IS, BOTH HAVE SCIENTIFIC PROOFS OF INTELLIGENCE AND DNA MUTATION, THOUGH BOTH ALSO LACK IN DEMONSTRATION TO COMPLETE THE OBSERVATION. IF YOU CALL EVOLUTION SCIENTIFIC FACT, THEN GOD INDEED ALSO IS SCIENTIFIC FACT, GOT IT?
ANYONE EXCEPT YOU?
AGAIN AND AGAIN I MENTION THIS, I AM A UNIVERSAL CHRISTIAN FIRST FOUNDED IN ROME ITALY, IN LATIN, "ROMAN CATHOLIC". WHAT THE CHURCH TEACHES I OBSERVE AND MAKE MY SAY IN IT, THE CHURCH TEACHES US NOT TO TAKE THE BIBLE LITERALLY (BUT INFORTUNATELY THERE ARE SO CALLED CHRISTIANS OUT THERE WHO ARE SO ANTI UNIVERSAL CHRISTIANS, AND DONT LISTEN TO US, AND THEY TAKE THE BIBLE LITERALLY, WHICH RESULTED TO ALOT OF SCIENTIFICAL CONTRADICTION>)
I AM A CATECHIST TEACHER AND OF COURSE I BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE 100% AS FREE OF ERRORS AND NO CONTRADICTION, FREE OF MORAL ERRORS THAT IS, NOT FREE OF SCIENTIFICAL ERRORS OR FREE OF MATHEMATICAL ERRORS, BUT THE BIBLE IS A BOOK TO ETERNAL LIFE, NOT A BOOK TO OBSERVE THE PERISHABLE PLANET EARTH.
MOSTLY PROTESTANTS ARE ANTI-EVOLUTION AND ANTI SCIENCE AT SOME POINT BECAUSE THEY TAKE GENESIS AND BIBLE LITERALLY AND THEY END UP CHOOSING WHAT TO BELIEVE, SCIENCE OR BIBLE? AND BECAUSE THEY KNOW GOD EXIST, THEY END UP REJECTING SCIENCE, FOR AFTER ALL SCIENCE GIVES NO HOPE BUT ONLY TAKES THAT AWAY FROM THEM.
UNIVERSAL CHURCH (CATHOLIC) FROM DAY WE NEVER REJECTED SCIENCE, OR ANY OF ITS THEORY WITH EVIDENCE, WE ACCEPTED EVOLUTION, IN FACT THE POPE AND THE MAGISTERIUM (CHURCH) USES SCIENCE AND SKEPTICS TO INVESTIGATE CLAIMED MIRACLES FOR ITS GENUINITY (FATIMA, LOURDES, LADY OF GUADALUPE, ETC.) (NOTE: CHURCH DIDNT LOOK FOR LIARS, BUT SKEPTICS, AND USUALLY AFTER INVESTIGATION, IF CLAIMED MIRACLES ARE GENUINE, THEY CONVERT.) IN FACT HARVARD, PRINCETON, ETC. 99% OF UNIVERSITIES ARE FOUNDED BY CHRISTIANS AND CATHOLICS AND IT TEACHES ALL SORTS OF SCIENCE
"AS WE ARE FREE TO HOPE FOR OUR GLORIOUS DAY.. OK?"
ok. I'm just saying that there is no reason to believe that we will NEVER travel to the stars just because we cannot today.
""ARE YOU PROPOSING THAT BY "CHANCE" WE EXIST" "
No. And No. I was asking a question. I was seeing if you could confirm what I thought your beliefs were. Could you answer the question without any quibs?
"SOME INVISIBLE THINGY CALLED QUANTUM PHYSICS "
Apparently, you don't know what a theory is. Qunatum physiscs is not a "thingy" it is a set of rules that have entirely nothing to do with abiogenisis. I don't even agree with some of quantum theory's premises, for example that the universe is probabalistic.
"IF YOU CALL EVOLUTION SCIENTIFIC FACT"
According to your inferred definition that I saw, nothing can be PROVEN fact, even evolution.
"THEN GOD INDEED ALSO IS SCIENTIFIC FACT, GOT IT? "
You still have to prove that your previous "proof" of god (that concerned intelligence) is correct.
ok. I'm just saying that there is no reason to believe that we will NEVER travel to the stars just because we cannot today.
""ARE YOU PROPOSING THAT BY "CHANCE" WE EXIST" "
No. And No. I was asking a question. I was seeing if you could confirm what I thought your beliefs were. Could you answer the question without any quibs?
"SOME INVISIBLE THINGY CALLED QUANTUM PHYSICS "
Apparently, you don't know what a theory is. Qunatum physiscs is not a "thingy" it is a set of rules that have entirely nothing to do with abiogenisis. I don't even agree with some of quantum theory's premises, for example that the universe is probabalistic.
"IF YOU CALL EVOLUTION SCIENTIFIC FACT"
According to your inferred definition that I saw, nothing can be PROVEN fact, even evolution.
"THEN GOD INDEED ALSO IS SCIENTIFIC FACT, GOT IT? "
You still have to prove that your previous "proof" of god (that concerned intelligence) is correct.