(Insert title here)
Codanblad said:
do you really think i'm trying to promote rape?
Well, I can see why you wouldn't want to be seen that way.
i have a girlfriend i get to worry about when she goes to the city with friends etc
Yeah, I've heard a few variations on that one.
am surprised how aggressive you are
In truth, something that surprises me is the number of people who say, "I'm not encouraging or condoning rape," turn around and do just that, and then wonder at the notion that someone would call you out on the conflict.
i'm saying i understand why people would rape people, and i understand how seeing a scantily clad woman would incline a person towards raping her, especially given the nature of people being animals
That would be even funnier than the high-heels bit, except it's kind of morbid.
are you suggesting rapists rape people on a whim? is it purely opportunity? there's always reasons, i'm trying to discuss them.
You're trying to discuss the reasons?
Let's stop and think about that for a moment. You're trying to discuss the reasons people commit rape by focusing on a stroke fantasy that represents, in the end, a severe minority of rapes. I have attempted repeatedly to address the implications of the excuses put forward according to this scenario, and get nothing in response except a blind repetition of the excuses.
i don't endorse rape, its inconsiderate.
Yeah, there's that. Murder, for instance, is inconvenient.
the high heels thing, that's something i've heard before, don't attack me over it. i thought it was a pretty well known thing.
Okay, for starters: high heels contribute more to a
man's orgasm than a woman's. Secondly, a high heel doesn't have much effect on a woman's foot when it's dangling from her toe while she's on her back with her legs in the air. High heels are one of the greatest kink cliches
ever.
chemical reactions occur regardless of what kind of man you are, they aren't determined by your integrity.
Who and what a man is depends on each individual. For instance, high heels. The intellectual aspect overrides whatever automatic response that is supposed to turn me into a raping robot. Seriously, on a good day, they're a neutral factor. If I stop and notice them, they're a turn-off. Mostly because I have yet to meet a woman who thinks the damn things are comfortable. So I do wonder
why she's wearing them.
the grenade thing wasn't comparing men to weapons. its saying when you do something you can be responsible for the consequences. dressing like a slut doesn't justify rape, but i feel it makes them more likely to rape you.
Well, the problem with your comparison is that pulling the pin on a grenade essentially determines its eventual explosion. You could run around with rubber bands holding the trigger device in place, but still, that A leads to B in this case is a matter of design, physics, and intent. The grenade does not "choose" to explode.
There are, indeed, rapists who have no choice in the matter. We call them sociopaths or psychopaths, and try to keep them separated from society. The suggestion, however, that the average male has no choice in the matter only suggests that the average male should be locked away.
The problem with the whole "dressing like a slut makes them more likely to rape you" argument is that it fails entirely to address certain basic realities about rape. Again: the
vast majority of women raped are assaulted by someone known to them.
So dressing like a slut doesn't actually have a whole lot to do with it. Which brings us to ....
and of course i don't want chicks to wear burquas. there are heaps of clothes i would say aren't designed to get male attention.
So why don't you enumerate for us your rape-prevention dress code?
Anyway, I think this is about the sixth time I've posted the following, and I'm going to continue pressing the issue until one of these ("I'm not a") rape advocates actually answers the issue:
Given that going out on a date counts as slutting it up for some men, I would hope women never give this attempt to excuse sexual violence serious consideration ....
.... Just to cover a few excuses along these lines, in order to be safe from rape, women should not:
• Dress in any manner that might possibly sexually stimulate a male
• Consume any sort of intoxicant around a male
• Allow herself to be alone with any male
• Respond in any affirmative way to a male's general advances (don't give him the idea that he can ask you out in the first place)
So take a shot at it, Codanblad. One of the reasons this whole "she was asking for it" excuse annoys people—well, okay, one of the reasons beside the obvious—is that it depends on such generalizations that it overlooks its own implications. Look at you: you've reduced the whole process of rape to something automatic.
Well, in what other ways was she asking for it? Accepting a date might suggest to a man that she wants him to fuck her. Being remotely intoxicated around a man might suggest she wants him to fuck her. Being alone with a man might suggest she wants him to fuck her. Not telling him to fuck off at the word "Hello" might suggest she wants him to fuck her.
Has it ever occurred to you that there is beauty among humans that
doesn't lead to fucking?
And that's at the heart of it. While women are judged on their looks in matters of socialization, education, and hiring, apparently if they play along in the least, they're asking to be fucked.
Consider the implications of the "she was asking for it" argument you chose to defend and now stand by. Imagine for a moment, please, that women decide to take that argument seriously. You no longer get dates. If you're married, the only time you see your wife make any effort to show her beauty is for the five minutes before you shoot your load. Jesus, man, did you ever have one of those embarrassing moments when you asked a date, "What is that perfume?" and she said, "
White Rain"? So think about that.
The mere fact that she washed her hair might cause a man to become aroused. Hell, have you ever heard of "
The Spanish Lady", one of the greatest pub songs of all time?
As I came back through Dublin City
At the hour of half past eight,
Who should I spy but the Spanish lady
Brushing her hair in the broad daylight?
First she tossed it, then she brushed it,
On her lap was a silver comb.
In all my life I ne'er did see
A maid so fair since I did roam.
What I'm asking you to consider is what, beyond a woman's dress, might turn a man on. When I was in high school, there were these twins, see. And by popular standards, they weren't hot. One of them tried to be popular with the pop crowd, the other got along better with the art crowd. And the art one, she had an interesting wardrobe that pretty much hid her shape. Longjohns and a gypsy skirt, a t-shirt, long-sleeve pullover and jacket .... From both the physical and the psychospiritual, she was the more attractive one. The psychospiritual was clear. She wasn't as superficially oriented as her sister. She laughed more genuinely, as opposed to laughing on cue. Physically, though, while her sister showed off a little more, reserve won the day. I remember once I was sitting on the steps, looking up at her as she talked, and she turned to gesture, and for the briefest moment the
perfect curve of the underside of her breast pressed through the layers of clothing, and in that moment, I really,
really wanted her. And the physical response was not from anything that could remotely qualify as "slutting it up". Rather, it came as a result of her reserve, of hiding her form. So start with that. As you enumerate your rape-prevention dress code, consider that what you don't think of as overtly sexy will still turn men on.
But what else can a woman do, aside from how she dresses, that might turn a man on? Pretty much
anything. It depends on the
man. I mean, think about a scene from a cheap comedy:
Man: Hey, sweetheart. If I told you you had a wonderful body, would you hold it against me?
Woman: Fuck off.
Man: (to buddy as they watch her leave) She wants me.
Now, every once in a while, I'll hear, "She wants me". And for the most part, it's a joke. But I would be lying if I said I've never seen someone who actually believes that cold, outright rejection is simply part of the game, her way of telling him how much she wants him.
So think about it: How she dresses provokes a man. Washing her hair provokes a man. Rejecting his advances provokes a man.
And there's
always someone out there who will say she was asking for it.
you're exaggerating or misconstruing everything i say in your zeal to persecute anyone who doesn't share your hatred of rapists.
I would suggest that if you do not wish to be included in a certain classification, you should not behave according to its identifying criteria. For instance, if you do not wish to be seen as a rape advocate, you should probably avoid statements like, "i agree with 'girls who dress like sluts are asking for it' ...", or comparing a man's decision to commit rape to a designed process that only fails according to a manufacturing error or circumstantial compromise.
In that context, though, I should note that it is interesting to see how men factionalize. There are those who identify against feminists who resent extreme depictions of men as robots eternally in pursuit of sexual gratification. And then there are those who are more than willing to depict men as robots as long as they get to justify rape.
i'm not sexist or immoral or an animal, just discussing the topic.
Right. Whatever you say.
You're clearly sexist. Morality is variable. And apparently you're transgendered°.
Just
think about the implications of what you're pushing. I know it all sounds great when you're looking through the narrow gap, but since this is the sort of thing that pertains to people's entire lives, perhaps you might consider giving it some deeper thought.
____________________
Notes:
° transgendered — Help us out. What was your physical state as birth? And how do you identify now? The confusion arises because of two seemingly contradictory statements:
• "
i know men should act responsibly, but we're literally animals." (
#119)
• "
i'm not sexist or immoral or an animal, just discussing the topic." (
#121)
So help us out. Are you a man? Are you not? Did it just seem like a good line when you posted it, but not so good when it came to disclaiming yourself?