terryoh said:
Sounds reasonable to me. Now just get the organization you affiliate yourself with (religion) to stop trying to dominate the world and force their views into the public domain and we'll all be happy. Yay.
Could a just god punish people for their beliefs?
- Thread starter Nasor
- Start date
Sounds reasonable to me. Now just get the organization you affiliate yourself with (religion) to stop trying to dominate the world and force their views into the public domain and we'll all be happy. Yay.
I like CC's response better.
C
charles cure
Guest
superluminal said:
thanks. this shit drives me crazy, its like people just live in a total dreamworld.
charles cure said:
Aye lad. Me too. Me too...
usp8riot
Registered Senior Member
I'm talking about I know, not believe. It's not faith. I don't know because I was raised religious, which I wasn't. I was raised like a lot of liberal hippies here, like a lawless piece of dung on the street. But I had a yearning for order and law so I faced God head-on to prove through science and math if He exists, and there is no way. Get a clue and you would find out what I'm talking about. Not only do you have the punctuation of an elementary school student, but also the thought process. Ok, I won't make personal attacks since my God doesn't think it's the right thing to do, nor do I. That's what would happen if I was Godless and what being would I have to answer to in the afterlife if I just killed anyone who didn't believe? Everyone who has any dignity, self-respect, honor, and a will to live wants rules and no one can deny it. Anyone who detests the rules placed by God will be detested themselves when it's their time to answer to God.
Nasor said:
don't worry about what christians think, they base most of their beliefs on the bible, which happens to say the earth is the center of the universe.
The arguement is that "God created the world and all he asks for in return is for us to believe in him." well is there any evidence that god created the world. The bible says it happened in seven days. Of course the only evidence there is of that is the old testemant. Which isn't even evidence. The bible is a stupid book that controles those who take it literally. Don't believe anything the so called good book says. If the bible said "throw the babies of those who disagree with god at rocks (which it does pretty much in different words) would you?
The answer to your question is the bibles idea of god doesn't exhist. (don't know about god in general. sorry i wrote so much to say pretty much this.
Oh here is the proof for the whole throwing babies at rock-
"The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords." (Hosea 13:16 NLT)
Thomas
"The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords." (Hosea 13:16 NLT)
Thomas
Quote Terryoh:
“religion has been the fundamental motivator for war throughout history? many wars have been based on religion, but i don't it's a fundamental motivator.”
* I concede that it is not necessarily THE fundamental motivator for war but it is certainly a MAJOR motivator for war. (and of violence to mankind generally) There have also been many disguises for war that when stripped down to its essentials indicate a religious cause. The American Civil War certainly had a profound if not fundamental religious cause based on slavery (not the only facet) which was deemed immoral in the eyes of GOD and the world. The 100 Year War included Catholic and Protestant attitudes which certainly created further conflict. If you look at WW11, I think the 6 million dead Jews (of Judaic faith) would indicate a major religious content to the conflict. The aftermath of WW11, the cold war, was all about an atheistic ideology confronting and challenging Western Christian values. So alas it would seem that overall, religion is a fundamental cause of war, and if you look at the global picture today its practically all about religion. I agree wholeheartedly with your view regarding:
“mankind+greed = war
mankind+difference in ideology = war
mankind+faulty intelligence = war”
If you dig down a little deeper, religion rears it head with a sickening regularity.
“religion has been the fundamental motivator for war throughout history? many wars have been based on religion, but i don't it's a fundamental motivator.”
* I concede that it is not necessarily THE fundamental motivator for war but it is certainly a MAJOR motivator for war. (and of violence to mankind generally) There have also been many disguises for war that when stripped down to its essentials indicate a religious cause. The American Civil War certainly had a profound if not fundamental religious cause based on slavery (not the only facet) which was deemed immoral in the eyes of GOD and the world. The 100 Year War included Catholic and Protestant attitudes which certainly created further conflict. If you look at WW11, I think the 6 million dead Jews (of Judaic faith) would indicate a major religious content to the conflict. The aftermath of WW11, the cold war, was all about an atheistic ideology confronting and challenging Western Christian values. So alas it would seem that overall, religion is a fundamental cause of war, and if you look at the global picture today its practically all about religion. I agree wholeheartedly with your view regarding:
“mankind+greed = war
mankind+difference in ideology = war
mankind+faulty intelligence = war”
If you dig down a little deeper, religion rears it head with a sickening regularity.
Adstar:
"It is not confidence in oneself that you see it is confidence in the Word of God. If one has confidence in God then it matters not if one is declared arrogant. God knows the truth."
* Thats the type of arrogance I mean. Can`t argue against that can I? The Muslim has confidence in his god, the Hindu, etc. But you obviously have the correct take on god. With god on your side you can slaughter at will.
"It is not confidence in oneself that you see it is confidence in the Word of God. If one has confidence in God then it matters not if one is declared arrogant. God knows the truth."
* Thats the type of arrogance I mean. Can`t argue against that can I? The Muslim has confidence in his god, the Hindu, etc. But you obviously have the correct take on god. With god on your side you can slaughter at will.
stretched said:Adstar:
"It is not confidence in oneself that you see it is confidence in the Word of God. If one has confidence in God then it matters not if one is declared arrogant. God knows the truth."
* Thats the type of arrogance I mean. Can`t argue against that can I? The Muslim has confidence in his god, the Hindu, etc. But you obviously have the correct take on god. With god on your side you can slaughter at will.
Now you have been here long enough to know my stance on war and killing others stretched. So don't lie about me slaughtering at will. My Messiah banns me from doing this. But for the muslims yes slaughtering the infidel is a often called on requirement in the koran.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
C
charles cure
Guest
usp8riot said:
first of all, your post is a perfect example of what exactly is wrong with people who believe in god. thanks for proving it out for me. second of all, you dont know that god exists. to know something is a lot different than believing in something, try looking up the definitions in the dictionary. knowledge is gained through observation of and experience of factual evidence as it purports to support or reject the plausibility of a particular premise. so do you want to lay out the facts you observed that point to the existence of god? do you want to detail the experience(s) you have had with god? is it possible that these things could be independently verified by anyone other than yourself or re-created ANYWHERE ELSE other than in your mind? i'm willing to bet they cant be, and if thats the case, you dont have knowledge, you have faith which is a paltry and disgusting substitute.
by the way, you dont have to tell me that you cant prove god through science and math, thats flagrantly obvious to anyone with a 4th grade education. the problem is that peoples minds are warped into somehow accepting that god must exist for the exact same reason that you do. because it provides imagined order and predictability to a world that is truly and sometimes terribly chaotic and uncontrollable by man, no matter how advanced we would like to believe we have become. so far though, no one can say with any certainty that anything happens when people die other than complete physical death. if youve got some evidence bring it on, but if you dont, dont pretend that what you believe is something that you know, because you do a disservice to yourself and everyone else in that.
sorry if my punctuation isnt spot on, dickhead.
No, you are completely missing my point. It is possible to read the bible and say "Maybe it's the word of god. Who knows? I'm just not sure." Note that this is not the same as "deciding that the bible is an evil book of lies." It's just not being completely convinced of something. How could a just god condemn a person to hell for all eternity simply for being unsure? Especially since it's not really up to us whether we are convinced of something or not. That was the point of my example of someone threatening to shoot you if you don't believe that a coin landed heads up; you can't simply choose to start believing something that isn't backed by convincing evidence, even if you wanted to. If a person doesn’t feel confident that christianity is true because they don’t see sufficient evidence for it (note that this is not the same thing as deciding that christianity must be a lie!) then you could no more blame them for not believing it than you could blame the person in my opening example for not believing that the coin landed heads.Adstar said:
Nasor said:
Ok you have posted a more detailed explanation of your thoughts. The evidence of the Bible is at a moral level. That is to say the teachings of God and Jesus are so moral as to cause those that agree with the moral of the information to believe it is from God. I am getting the impression that when many talk of there not being enough evidence, they are talking about physical or historical evidence or even miraculous evidences of the truth of the bible.
The question comes down to what God wants. Gods wants people to follow and trust Him out of respect for truth rather than respect for power, gee wiz tricks and some ancient clay tablets with funny marks etched into it. The Bible shows that Jesus did the gee wiz tricks and many people rejected him anyway. People have seen visions and had dreams but they have shrugged them off as the after affects of food poisoning or some medication they have been taking and historical evidences can be shrugged off as well because even if a historical record is found of the stories in the bible, people can still deny God as being a creation of these peoples. So to the person who hates the teachings of God no amount of evidence will suffice while those who embrace the teachings of God no other evidence is really necessary. That’s not to say believers do not get confirmations through other sources. I have and i do.
The state of being unsure should cause one to investigate further until they are sure, if people are fair dinkum about God they will investigate something until they are sure otherwise they are not serious about it.
As far as i know there is no room for fence sitters with God.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
An angry or anonyed god only implies that his plan failed. Obviously all the good will and fearsome power god demostrated in the bible is not strong enough to convince some people. Whose fault is that?
Where have I gone? Some explanations were in order from my my end of the table, but I seem to have misplaced my itinerary.
I am supposed to be addressing certain persons here. Hmm. I am not sure...
I am supposed to be addressing certain persons here. Hmm. I am not sure...
Believing that the bible contains good moral advice and believing that god wrote the bible is not the same thing. It's perfectly possible for a person to read the bible and say "all this stuff about loving your neighbor, treating people fairly, helping others, etc. is great! But how do I know if it was written by god or by some humans who happened to have unusually good morals?" It doesn't necessarily follow that the bible was written by god just because it has good moral teachings; in fact, I think if you look you'll see that just about every moral teaching in the bible is also found in the holy texts of other religions that you would probably say were books of lies. So, clearly one can't determine which holy text is the real one simply by examining the moral teachings.Adstar said:
Ahh, there you go again making false black-and-white divisions. A person does not "hate the teachings of God" simply because they are not convinced that the bible was written by God. In fact, a lot of people really like most of the moral teachings in the new testament - they just don't see any reason to believe that it was written by god, rather than some humans with good moral ideas.
I still don't think you've addressed my original point. People can't simply choose their beliefs; it would be unfair for god to punish people for not believing in him without giving them a convincing reason to believe, just as it would be unfair for the person in my opening example to be shot for not believing that the coin landed heads. You seem to be under the impression that people can just read the bible and suddenly be convinced that it was written by god, but that's just not the case.
Nasor, you are a gentleman and a scholar. Adstar doesn't really make any sense.
Nasor said:
Oh well we will just have to disagree on this one for the time being. The basic principle i put forward cannot be undermined. Those who are attracted to truth will embrace it when they see it and God is looking for people like that.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Well, I would say that pretty much everyone is "attracted to the truth" when they see it. The issue you can't seemingly clear up is how you can consider the bible as truth. It's not a case of just looking at it and saying, "that must be true because it says so"... is it?