Could a just god punish people for their beliefs?

[Giambattista]

God is already with us. since you haven't read the New Testament, you wouldn't know about this at all.

How would you know I haven't read the New Testament? Apparently being a Christian doesn't make one psychic.

meh, we put a lot of faith in stuff that are a couple of millenia old. the Hippocratic Oath, the ideals of democracy (laid down by the Greeks), etc... . don't put trust in anything that's a few millenia old

Do you put faith in Sumerian legends which were recorded before the Bible was?

 

[Giambattista]

If you read Genesis, God was known to all people, or at least the ancestors. Adam, Even, Cain, Abel (murdered), Seth, etc... Noah, Ham, Shem, Japeth, etc... all the original people knew of the existence of God. over time, we just gradually forget.

and if His presence isn't known to all people, it is the fault of Christians like myself of not making it known to everyone. we should push for more missions.

Guhhhh....

I have READ Genesis. I have examined things in multiple translations.

What good does knowledge or even better, direct communication with God (Pillar of Fire in the wilderness???) do us when not only is it only found in ancient, sometimes contradictory stories, but also when there are other religions JUST AS ANCIENT that also have fantastic stories and legends about God, gods, and goddesses? Are they not just as valid, then, despite their age?

 

[Giambattista]

Or how bout the books of Moses? Being written all by Moses himself? Even the part that describes Moses death?

Do you want me to make a lengthy list of contradictions contained in the Bible? Things that are out of place? Things that prove that the Bible is errant, despite the fact that it MAY be a spiritually/divinely inspired document?

 

[terryoh]

How would you know I haven't read the New Testament? Apparently being a Christian doesn't make one psychic.

if you have read the NT, obviously you have read it with very little attention paid to it. the Holy Spirit concept is one of the basic, fundamental concepts of Christianity stated many many many times in the New Testament (Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost, Spirit of God...all the same thing).

so when you ask why God hasn't reappeared again, it shows you know very little about Christianity itself, since you obviously failed to take into account the Holy Spirit concept. just before Jesus ascended into heaven, he promised us the Holy Spirit would guide us until Jesus came again.

but then again, i'm not trying to preach to you, so i won't go into anymore details.

Do you put faith in Sumerian legends which were recorded before the Bible was?

Sumerian legends were recorded many many years before a lot of the bible was written, sure. do i believe in them? no. once again, this all comes back to the "God gave us the freedom to choose to believe what we want" argument i keep having to repeat.

i mean, Greek Mythology was written before the New Testament. i don't believe in Greek Mythology.

 

[terryoh]

Guhhhh....

I have READ Genesis. I have examined things in multiple translations.

What good does knowledge or even better, direct communication with God (Pillar of Fire in the wilderness???) do us when not only is it only found in ancient, sometimes contradictory stories, but also when there are other religions JUST AS ANCIENT that also have fantastic stories and legends about God, gods, and goddesses? Are they not just as valid, then, despite their age?

once again...it's FAITH.

1+1 = ___ may have an infinite amount of possible answers, but there is only one correct one. you either write in 2 and get the question correct, or you can choose another number and get the question wrong. no one said you HAD to write 2. go write in 5, 12, -19000, or 0 all you want.

now you may be asking what gives me the right to say Christianity is right and everyone else is wrong, right? i can just turn back the question to you and ask why your non-belief in Christianity is any more right than my beliefs? the trick is to NOT insult or criticize others for their beliefs. the trick is to be accepting and understanding, but not having to believe in anything if it doesn't agree with you.

which is why i don't criticize you for your non-belief. you were given a choice, and you chose your path. i have no right to judge you or label you, just like you have no right to judge me or label me.

simple concept. sounds pretty democratic to me.

 

[Hapsburg]

muslims, hindus, and jews are also guilty of the charges you are levelling on christians.

Yeah, but hindus, jews, and muslims didn't do the whole "Holy Inquisition" thing on everyone.

 

[Adstar]

I think you are missing my point. There is no clear reason to believe that the bible is the word of god. I can't just decide to start believing that the bible is the word of god any more than I could suddenly decide to start believing that the coin landed 'heads'. How could a just god punish me for not believing something that he never gave me a good reason to believe? There does not seem to be any evidence that the bible's descriptions of god and jesus are accurate, just as in my hypothetical example there is no reason to believe that the coin landed on any particular side.
Think about this for a minute. You are proposing that your 'just' god would condemn people to an eternity of torture in hell simply for being mistaken! If a person reads the bible and then the koran and decides that the koran seems most likely to be the true book, they aren't "putting their will in alignment with lies". They are simply making an honest mistake. People make mistakes all the time. They think that they parked their car in one place, when really they parked it somewhere else. They think that being a programmer would be an enjoyable career, but then they find out they don't like it. They think that the capitol f Texas is Huston, when really it's Austin. Choosing which holy book to believe is just another choice that stupid, gullibly, fallible people have to make - except this time if you make a mistake you get tortured for all eternity! How could a just god condemn people to infinite punishment for being mistaken about something like that, especially when there isn't any good evidence for the correct decision?

Nasor you have not read my post with understanding. It is not a "mistake" to love evil teachings. People who love evil teachings show that they love evil. The Bible is available for you to read while the coin is out of site. You have the chance to read it and then decide for yourself if the Bible is the true Word of God or if it is a Lie. If the Bible is the Word of God (His Will) and you decide that it is a evil book of lies then you are demonstrating that you see the Will of God as being a lie and evil. Therefore you are rightly condemned. Of course if The Bible is not the Will of God then you are right to reject it. See it's a simple system.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

So, given your statement, you are hereby confessing that the entire thing is based upon luck.

Way to go adstar.

Where is the Luck factor?

Lets pick a question:

IS abortion wrong?

Now is your stance on abortion (i do not want to know your stance i am just using it as a topic) based on luck? No your stance on abortion is based on what you personally acknowledge as being the right thing to do.

Now some people will decide that abortion is a good thing while others will decide it is an evil thing these decisions are not based on Luck but what one approves of and disproves of. Now abortion is either good or it is evil to God. Those who agree with the will of God on abortion are with God in spirit. Those who are against God's will on abortion hate Gods will.

Same with the different views on the will of God. Where different view of Gods will are in opposition there must be lies being told as to the will of God. Those who hold those lies to be truth demonstrate by what they love, that they love evil.

It is simple indeed.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

But Adstar is probably a believer in predestination, so if you were destined to be saved, God would lead you to make the right choice, while the unlucky ones will be sent a "strong delusion" so that they may NOT believe.

Free will, at God's discretion.

I do not believe in calvanist predestination. God can help us grow in faith as we believe in simple truths and God can case one away into strong delusion when they reject the simple truth.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

For the life of me I will never understand Christian arrogance.

It is not confidence in oneself that you see it is confidence in the Word of God. If one has confidence in God then it matters not if one is declared arrogant. God knows the truth.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

So, thus far we have gathered some important information:

Basically, picking the right religion is about being chosen.

woooo there Mr snakie Accepting the Will of God causes one to be chosen to have eternity with God.

Thus every atheist and member of a wrong religion is indeed only that way because god made it so. Correct?

Not if they have heard the Message of the Gosple and rejected it.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[SnakeLord]

Lets pick a question:

IS abortion wrong?

It is of no relevance to what you or I posted. Why don't we just try to stick to the actual topic of discussion heh?

Now is your stance on abortion (i do not want to know your stance i am just using it as a topic) based on luck? No your stance on abortion is based on what you personally acknowledge as being the right thing to do.

Again, these statements are of no relevance to what you said earlier.

Now abortion is either good or it is evil to God. Those who agree with the will of God on abortion are with God in spirit. Those who are against God's will on abortion hate Gods will.

Which god? And who are you to say that god hates abortion? See, you've already completely missed the point because you instantly assign your own god as being the real one..

Your original statement:

If you read the Koran and agree with it. Then so be it. If it is the Word of God then you are on the right track if it is false then you show yourself to be false by believing in a lie. Same thing with the Bible and the Words of Jesus and the Torah. Or you could pick any book of religion you like.

That is where you show it's luck based. You've taken one guess, and go around claiming one of those gods/books is right.. But it's luck of the draw. You're just one lottery player among billions, and while you think you have the winning ticket - you have no substance with which to support it.

Not if they have heard the Message of the Gosple and rejected it.

What message? In what ancient text? Is this where you tell me the truth (c) is exactly what you believe it to be?

 

[usp8riot]

To respond to someone else's post, religion is not faith-based, it is more like a hypothesis or a scientific theory. You're taking two and two and judging from what you know, and you approve whether it is more than likely right or not. It is not, and never will be, for me, something I just want to know. I've been a hellraiser a lot of my life and I'd love to think I won't have to answer for my past, but I can't. It is not something I want to know but something I know is right. (For those that don't like me using the word 'believe', I have used more 'politically correct' words)
Those that are stuck in the details of God are like carpenters trying to eyeball level a building close up. It's not 'til you stand back and look at it 'til you're able to realize that the building is not plumb. The answer is not always in the details.

 

[Adstar]

It is of no relevance to what you or I posted. Why don't we just try to stick to the actual topic of discussion heh?



Again, these statements are of no relevance to what you said earlier.



Which god? And who are you to say that god hates abortion? See, you've already completely missed the point because you instantly assign your own god as being the real one..

Your original statement:



That is where you show it's luck based. You've taken one guess, and go around claiming one of those gods/books is right.. But it's luck of the draw. You're just one lottery player among billions, and while you think you have the winning ticket - you have no substance with which to support it.



What message? In what ancient text? Is this where you tell me the truth (c) is exactly what you believe it to be?

snakie

I have made my point clear enough for it to be understood by people who are willing to read it with attention. As to why you cannot grasp this simple concept, i can only guess the cause. But anyway those who are open to understanding will receive it.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[terryoh]

To respond to someone else's post, religion is not faith-based, it is more like a hypothesis or a scientific theory.

i disagree. a hypothesis/scientific theory implies that you're trying to test something out, observe the 'experiment', record it, and make a conclusion based on your observations and compare it to your original hypothesis.

that may work for observing gravity's effect on planets, the bonds between atoms, or how apes react with human interaction, but not with religion. religion is either 'acceptance' or 'unacceptance'. end of story. you either accept it or you don't accept it. nothing else to observe, experiment, or conclude about.

so, in other words, it is faith-based. without any observable physical evidence, without having 'seen' God, and or with no possible way to even test the existence of God, Christians like myself put faith in the fact that the Bible is correct (written 1900+ years ago) and that it's message is the right message to follow.

 

[usp8riot]

If you want to go that route then terryoh, then nothing is real. Everything can be disproven. You can be if we go into details. The existence of what you see can be disproven. You can phisophize everything to non-existence if you dwell deep enough and be satisfied by your own self. So arguing this is almost in vain if you want to take it in that direction. You can even get deep enough to convince yourself that observable physical evidence may not be actually observed, and physical can be just one of a few realms we know. As I've grown older, wiser, and more educated, I've begun to learn there is a lot that I, and us as human beings, don't know, will never know, and haven't learned yet.

 

[charles cure]

If you want to go that route then terryoh, then nothing is real. Everything can be disproven. You can be if we go into details. The existence of what you see can be disproven. You can phisophize everything to non-existence if you dwell deep enough and be satisfied by your own self. So arguing this is almost in vain if you want to take it in that direction. You can even get deep enough to convince yourself that observable physical evidence may not be actually observed, and physical can be just one of a few realms we know. As I've grown older, wiser, and more educated, I've begun to learn there is a lot that I, and us as human beings, don't know, will never know, and haven't learned yet.

what the fuck are you talking about? the whole point of scientific proof and experimentation is to establish an acceptable explanation for the way that things happen in the natural world through observation and re-creation of scenarios. the existence of what you see cannot be disproven. why dont you go try to disprove it and you'll quickly find out that its really not something that you can do.
what you are basically saying here is that because you can get deeply philosophical about something and imagine all kinds of wild, undemonstrable scenarios in which you take concepts to an abstract and absurd extreme, that you cant depend on reality. where do you get an idea like that? just because you can sit around and get high and think "whoa dude maybe i'm like not even in my body, but i can just like see it and feel it from real far away" or "dude what if our whole world is just an atom in the cell of a giant somewhere" doesnt mean that any of those things are the case and we just dont know. there is a way of figuring out what is real and what isnt, its called science. its how we understand that our hearts pump blood, how we know what things are made of, everything from gravity to quantum physics, if you cant accept that, then youre right, you will never be able to know whats real. just because you think that there must be some accountability for your actions at the end of your life doesnt really mean that that is the case. the fact remains there is not a shred of fact that supports the existence of god outside of peoples minds, despite how old you are or what you think you have learned in life.

 

[superluminal]

i disagree. a hypothesis/scientific theory implies that you're trying to test something out, observe the 'experiment', record it, and make a conclusion based on your observations and compare it to your original hypothesis.

that may work for observing gravity's effect on planets, the bonds between atoms, or how apes react with human interaction, but not with religion. religion is either 'acceptance' or 'unacceptance'. end of story. you either accept it or you don't accept it. nothing else to observe, experiment, or conclude about.

so, in other words, it is faith-based. without any observable physical evidence, without having 'seen' God, and or with no possible way to even test the existence of God, Christians like myself put faith in the fact that the Bible is correct (written 1900+ years ago) and that it's message is the right message to follow.

But... but... why?

This seems like a complete surrender of the intellect to me. Could you explain please, other than upbringing, why you personally 'accept' your religion?

 

[superluminal]

what the fuck are you talking about? the whole point of scientific proof and experimentation is to establish an acceptable explanation for the way that things happen in the natural world through observation and re-creation of scenarios. the existence of what you see cannot be disproven. why dont you go try to disprove it and you'll quickly find out that its really not something that you can do.
what you are basically saying here is that because you can get deeply philosophical about something and imagine all kinds of wild, undemonstrable scenarios in which you take concepts to an abstract and absurd extreme, that you cant depend on reality. where do you get an idea like that? just because you can sit around and get high and think "whoa dude maybe i'm like not even in my body, but i can just like see it and feel it from real far away" or "dude what if our whole world is just an atom in the cell of a giant somewhere" doesnt mean that any of those things are the case and we just dont know. there is a way of figuring out what is real and what isnt, its called science. its how we understand that our hearts pump blood, how we know what things are made of, everything from gravity to quantum physics, if you cant accept that, then youre right, you will never be able to know whats real. just because you think that there must be some accountability for your actions at the end of your life doesnt really mean that that is the case. the fact remains there is not a shred of fact that supports the existence of god outside of peoples minds, despite how old you are or what you think you have learned in life.

Couldn't have said it better.

It makes my heart fairly sing to know there are people out there who can express ideas so clearly and straightforwardly. Thanks!

 

[charles cure]

once again...it's FAITH.

1+1 = ___ may have an infinite amount of possible answers, but there is only one correct one. you either write in 2 and get the question correct, or you can choose another number and get the question wrong. no one said you HAD to write 2. go write in 5, 12, -19000, or 0 all you want.

now you may be asking what gives me the right to say Christianity is right and everyone else is wrong, right? i can just turn back the question to you and ask why your non-belief in Christianity is any more right than my beliefs? the trick is to NOT insult or criticize others for their beliefs. the trick is to be accepting and understanding, but not having to believe in anything if it doesn't agree with you.

which is why i don't criticize you for your non-belief. you were given a choice, and you chose your path. i have no right to judge you or label you, just like you have no right to judge me or label me.

simple concept. sounds pretty democratic to me.

its not democratic. its easy for you to be accepting and understanding when the entire structure of western culture is dominated by and affirms your worldview. non-believers in the judeo-christian ethic are at a severe disadvantage only by virtue of that fact that they demand reasoning and evidence for the basis of ideas which underpin everything in this society from laws against abortion to funeral ceremonies. yet, strangely enough, believers cannot even pony up with a single shred of evidence that supports the story of jesus or anything that he did or the premise that he derives authority from a divine entity, the existence of which is also nothing but a fantasy at this point.
would you judge someone who believed everything in Mein Kampf word for word because they found the philosophy to be sound? would you think someone was stupid if they said that they believed in aliens for no reason other than they just thought it made sense that they must be out there? come on. you just dont like being challeneged because christianity is physically and factually unsupportable, and if everyone realized it all at once, society would be forced to change to favor someone else's estimation of reality.