Could a just god punish people for their beliefs?

[Nasor]

You often here christians say things like “God doesn’t send people to hell – people choose to go to hell by rejecting god.” This sort of statement raises an interesting question – can we really “choose” our beliefs? A closely related question is, could a just god punish people for their beliefs (or lack of beliefs)? Because if people can’t choose their beliefs, it doesn’t seem to me that a just god could punish people for not believing in him.

The entire premise of the christian argument that people “reject” god by not believing in him is that people can simply choose to start believing in god at will. But we can’t simply select our beliefs; our beliefs are forced upon us by reason and evidence. Imagine the following scenario:

Someone walks up to you with a coin, a bag of money, and a gun. He throws the coin as hard as he can, so that it lands far away where neither of you can see it. He then says, “I will pay you $1 million to believe that the coin landed ‘heads up’. But if you don’t believe that it landed heads up, I will shoot you.” Although it would clearly be in your favor to believe that the coin landed heads up, there would be no way for you to do it; neither of you can see the coin, and you know that there’s only a 50% chance that it landed heads up. At best, you could lie and say that you believed the coin to have landed heads up while in your mind you would secretly still know that you really had no idea. If the other person had some means of knowing your true beliefs, you would probably desperately want to believe that the coin landed heads up so that you could collect the money rather than be shot – but that wouldn’t change your own awareness of the fact that you don’t really know how the coin landed.

This is almost exactly analogous to what christians propose when they say that people “reject god” by not believing in him. So, if it’s impossible for someone to believe in god based on the evidence that they have encountered in their life, how could god send people to hell for not believing in him?

 

[ggazoo]

I posted this in another thread:

Christians believe that God created the Earth. They also believe that the only thing that God asks in return is that they believe in Jesus Christ. God give mankind every opportunity to believe in Him. If God created the world for mankind only for us to turn our back to Him, can you blame him for being a little annoyed?

 

[Hapsburg]

God is a dick, then. He's either all-loving, all-seeing, all-forgiving, all-present and all-powerful or he's lonely, miserable, psychopathic, murderous, destructive, violent, bipolar, and weak.

 

[ggazoo]

God is a dick, then. He's either all-loving, all-seeing, all-forgiving, all-present and all-powerful or he's lonely, miserable, psychopathic, murderous, destructive, violent, bipolar, and weak.

One thing that amuses me is that people are always blaming Religion for war... it's not religion's fault, it's mankind for choosing to do so.

 

[RoyLennigan]

I posted this in another thread:

Christians believe that God created the Earth. They also believe that the only thing that God asks in return is that they believe in Jesus Christ. God give mankind every opportunity to believe in Him. If God created the world for mankind only for us to turn our back to Him, can you blame him for being a little annoyed?

if god is powerful enough and intelligent enough to create all this, then he would not get annoyed by anything humans did. he would smile down upon those that didn't believe in him, knowing that their beliefs are built on ignorance, and not because they choose to believe or not.

but... that is, if there is a god.

 

[Nasor]

I posted this in another thread:

Christians believe that God created the Earth. They also believe that the only thing that God asks in return is that they believe in Jesus Christ. God give mankind every opportunity to believe in Him. If God created the world for mankind only for us to turn our back to Him, can you blame him for being a little annoyed?

I don't think that really addresses my point.

 

[stretched]

"One thing that amuses me is that people are always blaming Religion for war... it's not religion's fault, it's mankind for choosing to do so."

Religion=Division
Mankind+religion=War

* Don`t believe everything you hear from the pulpit. Predominantly, Mankind goes to war on GROUNDS of religion. Whether the conflict is cultural or territorial, religion has been the fundamental motivator for war throughout history. Man will always be a warring animal, but religion exacerbates that trait to an incredible degree. Religion provides the excuse for CHOICES. The conflict in the Middle East today is religious in nature, and Israel (albeit a secular state) is the primary catalyst. Israel lays claim to its territory based on Biblical history and religion.

How can you say war is not caused by religion? History proves it time and time again.

 

[Lerxst]

Man will always be a warring animal, but religion exacerbates that trait to an incredible degree.

Exactly.

How can you say war is not caused by religion? History proves it time and time again.

You answered this above.

Like I said before, blaming religion for the existence of war is like blaming gasoline for the existence of arson. It is not the root cause, just a catalyst.

 

[scorpius]

Christians believe that God created the Earth. They also believe that the only thing that God asks in return is that they believe in Jesus Christ.

have you ever wondered why would god need to sacrifice himself to himself to correct the rule he made in the first place???

God give mankind every opportunity to believe in Him.

no he didnt,
if god created everything then why did he create atheists?

 

[Adstar]

You often here christians say things like “God doesn’t send people to hell – people choose to go to hell by rejecting god.” This sort of statement raises an interesting question – can we really “choose” our beliefs? A closely related question is, could a just god punish people for their beliefs (or lack of beliefs)? Because if people can’t choose their beliefs, it doesn’t seem to me that a just god could punish people for not believing in him.

The entire premise of the christian argument that people “reject” god by not believing in him is that people can simply choose to start believing in god at will. But we can’t simply select our beliefs; our beliefs are forced upon us by reason and evidence. Imagine the following scenario:

Someone walks up to you with a coin, a bag of money, and a gun. He throws the coin as hard as he can, so that it lands far away where neither of you can see it. He then says, “I will pay you $1 million to believe that the coin landed ‘heads up’. But if you don’t believe that it landed heads up, I will shoot you.” Although it would clearly be in your favor to believe that the coin landed heads up, there would be no way for you to do it; neither of you can see the coin, and you know that there’s only a 50% chance that it landed heads up. At best, you could lie and say that you believed the coin to have landed heads up while in your mind you would secretly still know that you really had no idea. If the other person had some means of knowing your true beliefs, you would probably desperately want to believe that the coin landed heads up so that you could collect the money rather than be shot – but that wouldn’t change your own awareness of the fact that you don’t really know how the coin landed.

This is almost exactly analogous to what christians propose when they say that people “reject god” by not believing in him. So, if it’s impossible for someone to believe in god based on the evidence that they have encountered in their life, how could god send people to hell for not believing in him?

While the coin is out of focus the Word of God is available to be accepted or rejected. If you reject His word then you show in you are against His Word. His word is Good. Rejecting it shows that you reject what is good. Therefore by rejecting good you condemn yourself by what you approve and what you disapprove of.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Mythbuster]

The real question is this: Since Mr. T. is all-powerful, could he create a fool so foolish that even HE couldn't pity said fool? Discuss!

 

[stretched]

Does Mr T realise that every time, eventually, there is going to be a BIGGER Mr T, who can say even louder ... FOOL!

 

[Giambattista]

I posted this in another thread:

Christians believe that God created the Earth. They also believe that the only thing that God asks in return is that they believe in Jesus Christ. God give mankind every opportunity to believe in Him. If God created the world for mankind only for us to turn our back to Him, can you blame him for being a little annoyed?

If God has the audacity to expect humans to follow his rules (whatever they are) but makes contradictory and confusing statements regarding these rules and never even bothers to make his presence known to all people (or at least a large number of them) in order to clarify things, can you blame people for being a little annoyed?

Oh, what's that you say? Ah, yes! The BIBLE tells us so!
So God can appear thousands of years ago to people in a book, but in his greatness and wisdom doesn't need to bother with reappearing in our present time to reassure us? And whether we go to heaven or hell for eternity hinges on whether we believe or put our trust in accounts that are several millenia in age.

What an awesome God!

 

[Giambattista]

While the coin is out of focus the Word of God is available to be accepted or rejected. If you reject His word then you show in you are against His Word. His word is Good. Rejecting it shows that you reject what is good. Therefore by rejecting good you condemn yourself by what you approve and what you disapprove of.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

What kind of nonsense is this? WHICH Word of God? To Muslims, the Quran is the Word of God. Going by your logic, anyone or anything that claims to be God's word is legitimate.

What makes you so certain that the Bible is God's infallible word? Oh! The BIBLE says so!

The Quran is God's infallible word. How can I be certain? Because the Quran says so!

 

[Adstar]

What kind of nonsense is this? WHICH Word of God? To Muslims, the Quran is the Word of God. Going by your logic, anyone or anything that claims to be God's word is legitimate.

What makes you so certain that the Bible is God's infallible word? Oh! The BIBLE says so!

The Quran is God's infallible word. How can I be certain? Because the Quran says so!

why ask this question?

What kind of nonsense is this? WHICH Word of God?

when you demonstrate that you understand full well what Word i am talking about:

What makes you so certain that the Bible is God's infallible word?

If you read the Koran and agree with it. Then so be it. If it is the Word of God then you are on the right track if it is false then you show yourself to be false by believing in a lie. Same thing with the Bible and the Words of Jesus and the Torah. Or you could pick any book of religion you like. What people accept as truth either justifies them or condemns them. If what they accept as truth is true then they demonstrate that their will is in alignment with truth. If they accept a lie then they demonstrate that their will is in alignment with lies.

Its a simple system isn't it.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Nasor]

While the coin is out of focus the Word of God is available to be accepted or rejected. If you reject His word then you show in you are against His Word. His word is Good. Rejecting it shows that you reject what is good. Therefore by rejecting good you condemn yourself by what you approve and what you disapprove of.

I think you are missing my point. There is no clear reason to believe that the bible is the word of god. I can't just decide to start believing that the bible is the word of god any more than I could suddenly decide to start believing that the coin landed 'heads'. How could a just god punish me for not believing something that he never gave me a good reason to believe? There does not seem to be any evidence that the bible's descriptions of god and jesus are accurate, just as in my hypothetical example there is no reason to believe that the coin landed on any particular side.

Or you could pick any book of religion you like. What people accept as truth either justifies them or condemns them. If what they accept as truth is true then they demonstrate that their will is in alignment with truth. If they accept a lie then they demonstrate that their will is in alignment with lies.

Think about this for a minute. You are proposing that your 'just' god would condemn people to an eternity of torture in hell simply for being mistaken! If a person reads the bible and then the koran and decides that the koran seems most likely to be the true book, they aren't "putting their will in alignment with lies". They are simply making an honest mistake. People make mistakes all the time. They think that they parked their car in one place, when really they parked it somewhere else. They think that being a programmer would be an enjoyable career, but then they find out they don't like it. They think that the capitol f Texas is Huston, when really it's Austin. Choosing which holy book to believe is just another choice that stupid, gullibly, fallible people have to make - except this time if you make a mistake you get tortured for all eternity! How could a just god condemn people to infinite punishment for being mistaken about something like that, especially when there isn't any good evidence for the correct decision?

 

[Giambattista]

If you read the Koran and agree with it. Then so be it. If it is the Word of God then you are on the right track if it is false then you show yourself to be false by believing in a lie. Same thing with the Bible and the Words of Jesus and the Torah. Or you could pick any book of religion you like. What people accept as truth either justifies them or condemns them. If what they accept as truth is true then they demonstrate that their will is in alignment with truth. If they accept a lie then they demonstrate that their will is in alignment with lies.

Its a simple system isn't it.

Simple, maybe. Does it make any sense? Not really.

Your response doesn't answer my question about determining which word of God is THE word of God.
The only thing you're saying is that they may accept one book or religion over the other, and they are justified or condemned if it is right or wrong.
WHAT??? How is THAT an accurate system for determining the truth of one religion over another? Simply choose a book, and believe it is the word of God, and one day you'll either live in paradise, or burn in hell.

You MAY be violating the law if you do such-and-such action, but proponents will assure that it is perfectly legal, while opponents say the exact opposite. Just commit the act, and if you're punished for it, then you'll know for certain it was against the law. Of course, by that time it'll be too late.

Simple, but stupid.

 

[Giambattista]

How could a just god condemn people to infinite punishment for being mistaken about something like that, especially when there isn't any good evidence for the correct decision?

I wouldn't expect any coherency out of this Adstar character. Just look at the answer I got and how it really wasn't an answer.

 

[SnakeLord]

If you read the Koran and agree with it. Then so be it. If it is the Word of God then you are on the right track if it is false then you show yourself to be false by believing in a lie. Same thing with the Bible and the Words of Jesus and the Torah. Or you could pick any book of religion you like. What people accept as truth either justifies them or condemns them. If what they accept as truth is true then they demonstrate that their will is in alignment with truth. If they accept a lie then they demonstrate that their will is in alignment with lies.

So, given your statement, you are hereby confessing that the entire thing is based upon luck.

Way to go adstar.

 

[Giambattista]

So, given your statement, you are hereby confessing that the entire thing is based upon luck.

Way to go adstar.

That is a simple, but very accurate analysis Adstar's statement.