Corona Virus 2019-nCoV

iceaura said:
(Re: "opportunities for excelling)
And why is this relevant here? Because it highlights the continual and repeated failure of the US, as a country, under its current and now generation-old political governance, to handle emergencies and forestall disasters.
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I think that's gonna fall on deaf ears when addressing someone who, apparently, has difficulty perceiving any sort of "excellence" outside of "companies that cause sea changes in industries."
 
parmalee said:
I think that's gonna fall on deaf ears when addressing someone who, apparently, has difficulty perceiving any sort of "excellence" outside of "companies that cause sea changes in industries."
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I think you are confusing "excellence" with "opportunity."
 
billvon said:
Not at all. New technology provides opportunities; these turn into jobs. Many people who get those jobs have an opportunity to succeed and excel.
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You did, in fact, post a job count when the topic was "opportunities to excel/succeed do better than average". You did do that, "Not at all" is not the case. Agreed?
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Seattle said:
The U.S. could be labeled "priority individual over collective".
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The US could be labeled "corporate over individual or collection of individuals", It provides the greatest opportunity to incorporated accumulations of capital.
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exchemist said:
So this thread is now about politics, apparently
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The only fraught or newsworthy aspect of the coronavirus, sure. The rest is just another plague virus, this one spread by respiration.

The US response has been miserable failure, because the US is very poorly governed and its economy is run by Republicans. The political myths about the post 1980 US - the "more opportunity", greater chance os succeeding, doing well, excelling, etc, chief among them - are key contributors to this incompetence. They imply a tradeoff - the US gives up security and the government protection of the common welfare, sure, but it gets something for its pains, something even more valuable.

It doesn't. The failure to tax, reglulate, and govern well, is a dead loss. It creates what liberals and others who understand mathematics and science call a "suboptimal equilibrium" - a permanent and stable status of low function and poor performance. In this case, it created a situation in which a fully operational and well-funded and well-equipped society complete with the most advanced medical gear and expertise on the planet was unable to handle one of the historically standard public health crises of the industrialized world. It's as if we had a carpenter who couldn't saw a board at an angle.
 
iceaura said:
You did, in fact, post a job count when the topic was "opportunities to excel/succeed do better than average". You did do that, "Not at all" is not the case. Agreed?
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No. To remind you what you posted:

Ice: "They [Tesla, Apple] provide relatively few opportunities for the citizens of the US."
Me: (listed jobs they provide)
Ice: So "jobs" and "opportunities" to "excel / succeed" are now equivalent? Hmmm.
Me: Not at all.

The two are not equivalent. "Jobs" does not equal opportunities to excel.

Those companies do, however, provide a great many opportunities to the people of the US in the form of employment.

So "employment" is an opportunity. "Jobs" (i.e. employment) at a company that is breaking new ground is AN opportunity to excel. It is not the only way to excel.

Get it?
The US could be labeled "corporate over individual or collection of individuals", It provides the greatest opportunity to incorporated accumulations of capital.
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Well, if you are equating "opportunity" to "making lots of money" that's true. However, as Musk, Jacobs, Jobs et al demonstrated, it is not required to succeed - or excel. So again, capital provides ONE opportunity for people. It is not the only one.
 
iceaura said:
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The US could be labeled "corporate over individual or collection of individuals", It provides the greatest opportunity to incorporated accumulations of capital.
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You would prefer that there be no ability to incorporate? Do you have an issue with the accumulation of capital?

Do you not try to accumulate capital?
 
billvon said:
So "employment" is an opportunity. "Jobs" (i.e. employment) at a company that is breaking new ground is AN opportunity to excel. It is not the only way to excel.
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And this is the sticking point--with respect to these other opportunities, how can you maintain that the U.S. has more than any/all other "first world" countries? Hence my example: An artist is not funded by a company, they rely upon grants and suchlike. Throughout Europe and elsewhere, said grants and opportunities to obtain said grants exist in abundance. That is very much not the case in the U.S. And so forth...

So again, capital provides ONE opportunity for people. It is not the only one.
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It's not the only one, but it's certainly an essential one. When a person is hard pressed to come up with the capital essential simply in order to survive, their opportunity for "excelling," in any respect, is very much limited.
 
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parmalee said:
And this is the sticking point--with respect to these other opportunities, how can you maintain that the U.S. has more than any/all other "first world" countries? Hence my example: An artist is not funded by a company, they rely upon grants and suchlike. Throughout Europe and elsewhere, said grants and opportunities to obtain said grants exist in abundance. That is very much not the case in the U.S. And so forth...
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If you are an artist producing something that someone wants you can sell your work. In the U.S. you will be able to keep more of the proceeds from those sales. You can invest those proceeds, you can leave something for your kids without the government taking most of it.
 
Seattle said:
If you are an artist producing something that someone wants you can sell your work. In the U.S. you will be able to keep more of the proceeds from those sales. You can invest those proceeds, you can leave something for your kids without the government taking most of it.
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Sometimes, sure. Here is but one example wherein that becomes a problem:

You write a piece for a large orchestral ensemble, with choir, etc. An awful lot of people there gots to be paid. So do you compromise, turn it into a string quartet, just to foot the bill?

Then there's ephemeral art, and so forth.

I could list a few thousand examples where "selling your work" is problematic, but do I really need to?

Watch this Zappa interview with David Letterman from about 6 minutes in--and keep in mind that Zappa was a capitalist:
 
One day in the future we will get to know just how many health care workers have perished in the line of duty. From what I have been reading and hearing the numbers will be considerable.
 
Been avoiding this topic as much as possible, but my favorite science guy says it's important, so I offer the below video on his behalf...

 
billvon said:
Priority Collective over individual - fascism.
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Nonsense. You've confused communism with fascism - about as far wrong as one can get, economically.
Priority private capitalist corporation over individual(s) - fascism.

What the coronavirus shows us is that fascists are fuckups. We already knew that, right?
 
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Bowser said:
Been avoiding this topic as much as possible, but my favorite science guy says it's important, so I offer the below video on his behalf...
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Silly boy. Who has been saying this virus is already over? Nobody at all, except Donald Trump and his voters.

This guy is just noting what the lefties have been saying for many years now, about pandemic response in the US. It's called "common knowledge". (It's not very good math, btw - he makes various questionable assumptions).

His economic analysis is not bad, though. His illustrations educate. Lefty stuff, of course - bialout money distribution, etc.
 
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billvon said:
The two are not equivalent. "Jobs" does not equal opportunities to excel.
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Or opportunity to succeed, to be above average, etc.
Are you trying to claim having a job is itself an "opportunity" for anything?

Doesn't much matter. On any scale, by any reasonable definition, as you illustrated with your list of US job - i.e. opportunity, according to you - providers, the US provides less and fewer than many other countries.
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Seattle said:
You would prefer that there be no ability to incorporate? Do you have an issue with the accumulation of capital?

Do you not try to accumulate capital?
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Trolls. What can you do?
(This is the same guy who complains about being overmoderated here, if anyone needs a chuckle).
 
iceaura said:
Or opportunity to succeed, to be above average, etc.
Are you trying to claim having a job is itself an "opportunity" for anything?
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Of course it is. People with jobs have more opportunities than people who don't. I am sure you realize this.
Doesn't much matter. On any scale, by any reasonable definition, as you illustrated with your list of US job - i.e. opportunity, according to you - providers, the US provides less and fewer than many other countries.
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Nope. Simply untrue.
 
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