Common misconceptions about Islam

[quadraphonics]

aha, also the woman, many times, is who keeps things running in the house, like money and food and etc...

Such is not at all incompatible with women being treated as inferiors and oppressed. It is, in fact, a rather typical role for women in unequal societies - the point being that the prescription of proper roles to begin with is oppressive and unequal (men are typically afforded the self-determination to define their own role, in such societies).

And, likewise, the presentation of such a role as an argument against gender inequality is a tell-tale sign of somebody who doesn't recognize such in the first place (typically from being raised in an unequal culture that lacks in such awareness).

I don't mean to be terribly condescending there, but these are the exact same arguments that traditionalists have been making against feminism in my society for many, many decades now. And they remain uncompelling - "know your role!" is not the same thing as self-determination, and it is inevitable that whichever group is empowered to define everyone's roles will do so in a way that oppresses everyone else.

 

[Shadow1]

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Slaves used to run things like farms very well too, that doesn't mean anything.

what do you mean?
why don't you just say directly and clearly what you got? :shrug:

 

[spidergoat]

Quad said it better than me. Responsibility doesn't make up for being treated like an inferior creature that can't even drive a car or talk to a man alone.

 

[Shadow1]

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Such is not at all incompatible with women being treated as inferiors and oppressed. It is, in fact, a rather typical role for women in unequal societies - the point being that the prescription of proper roles to begin with is oppressive and unequal (men are typically afforded the self-determination to define their own role, in such societies).

And, likewise, the presentation of such a role as an argument against gender inequality is a tell-tale sign of somebody who doesn't recognize such in the first place (typically from being raised in an unequal culture that lacks in such awareness).

I don't mean to be terribly condescending there, but these are the exact same arguments that traditionalists have been making against feminism in my society for many, many decades now. And they remain uncompelling - "know your role!" is not the same thing as self-determination, and it is inevitable that whichever group is empowered to define everyone's roles will do so in a way that oppresses everyone else.

well, what means that a man and a woman are both equal, doesnt mean exactly ecaul in everything everything, i mean, this don't even exist in any an country, even in west, because, for example, like some simple stuff, mostly the woman is who cooks the food at home, and clean the house, and the man helps too anyway, but mainly still the woman do it, for example, a woman go to shoping as a hobby, and stay hours, whie a man, just go directly to he's targect of what he's going to, anyway, that's not what i meant, what i was talking about, that women, and men, have both same rights, to work, to study, to live, to talk, to .. to ..to ..to..
and yes i live in a muslim society, where men and women, are equal, in rights i mean, because ecaul exactly like i explained before, but still they have both the same rights,


in general, our freedom (i mean both men and women if you think i mean only one of them :bugeye: ), stops at the freedom of the other, means, we are free to do anything, but to respect others, for example, here in tunisia, in the public places, you can't be with your wife infront of all people and kissing each other by thong, or to say bad words and stuff..

 

[Shadow1]

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Quad said it better than me. Responsibility doesn't make up for being treated like an inferior creature that can't even drive a car or talk to a man alone.

uuuuh, did i say women and men are not equal?
here's what i meant, this is an example
a fother, died, and left some money, and have two kids, one male and one female, both adults.
the female, work and take care of her children she'st he responsible of the house, while her husband is irresponsible.
the male, is the responsible on he's family, and he have ennuf money, but the female, is in more need for extra money, than that male, so, the female, will take more money from what the fother left, than her brother.

in that case, the man, is inferior than that woman in the domain of inheritance of their fother's money that he left before he die.


in another case, in a country, where there's a high unemployement, and women occupy most of the jobs. while there are many men, who are responsibles on a family, so, the priority of giving a job, will be given to those men, who are responsible on their families, also women who are responsible on their familes, and effcorse, the quality of that worker will be took in consideration, for example that woman, studied hard in her hall life, and then, she's working, but she's not responsible on a family, while that man is responsible on a family, but he never made an effort in studying and etc.. so it's he's fault, so better go find another job somewhere, also things like, that person studied hard and etc.. to reach that job, should be puted in consideration

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

ok, in islam, that's all bullshits, in islam the relegion, anyway, in muslim societies, well, more specificly, muslim arab societies, let's 70 years ago, in many countries, it was like, women , not illigal, but, immoral to go out, and to show her face, and etc... and guess what, that is exactly, the time, where those people, were back to stoneage like you said, but in islam, the relegion, all those are bullshits, and serious mistakes, according to islam, and yes human rights. and HEY HEY HEY, are you talking about today how we treat our woman? go educate your self... maybe you got a dark image from saudi arabia and others, wich i didnt visit before to see with my own eyes and judge, because your media is actually ignorant in some parts...for example about the tunisian revolution, hmm, some media news, american ones, are ignorant in many points, many

A dark image from Saudi Arabia??? Saudi Arabia has established itself as the "capital," as it were, of Sunni Islam, just as Iran is the capital of the Shiites. At least in the Middle East. We all know that most of the world's Muslims live in Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Nigeria, but it's the Saudis and the Persians who make all the noise and act like role models. Saudi Arabia and Iran have all of the key holy sites of Islam, don't they?

And I did say specifically that I was talking about the places that are still in the Stone Age, where an old-fashioned kind of fundamentalist Islam is practiced. Unfortunately this includes Afghanistan and much of northern Pakistan, as well as Saudi Arabia. Even in relatively "modern" Iran, women can't go out in public without covering their hair and dancing is forbidden (although done in private). In the tribal areas of Afghanistan and Pakistan, music is forbidden! Music, one of humanity's greatest inventions! How much of a retarded asshole do you have to be to ban music?

Music and dogs are the two most important things in my life, and even though I am an avowed pacifist I would take up arms against anyone who tries to deny them to me or to my country. So I will vote for massive military spending if the Taliban--which regards itself as the role model for all pious Muslims--ever gains enough power to launch a serious attack. Not just exploding underwear that doesn't go off.

It would appear I was also asleep when a man could buy several woman and put them in his house. Islam sounds awesome. Man got cash, man have women.

The rationale behind polygamy in Islam has been twisted over the centuries, but originally it was a humanitarian practice. One of the things that was going on in Mohammed's time was massive warfare throughout the region; this is one of the main reasons Muslims still call it a "religion of peace," since arguably his main goal was to bring peace to the region. After years of war, the male population had decreased and there were a lot of widows. It was regarded as honorable for a man to take in the widows of his deceased brothers and other relatives, and treat them as his wives. If there were widows around who had no surviving male in-laws, then obviously the rule had to be stretched so that some guy with a prosperous household could take in an extra one or two.

In an era with no government social services, I'll have to give them a pass on this one. The motivation behind it was most definitely not evil, despite how it worked out in the long run.

 

[Shadow1]

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A dark image from Saudi Arabia??? Saudi Arabia has established itself as the "capital," as it were, of Sunni Islam, just as Iran is the capital of the Shiites. At least in the Middle East. We all know that most of the world's Muslims live in Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Nigeria, but it's the Saudis and the Persians who make all the noise and act like role models. Saudi Arabia and Iran have all of the key holy sites of Islam, don't they?

actually, no, mecca and medina, are the relegious capital of muslims, because of the kaaba, the holiest place on earth for muslims.
kaaba in mecca: the n1 holy place

medina: n1 too

iran? uuuh, nope

n2
Jerusalam (Al-Quds) ; Al-Aqsa mosque

And I did say specifically that I was talking about the places that are still in the Stone Age, where an old-fashioned kind of fundamentalist Islam is practiced. Unfortunately this includes Afghanistan and much of northern Pakistan, as well as Saudi Arabia. Even in relatively "modern" Iran, women can't go out in public without covering their hair and dancing is forbidden (although done in private). In the tribal areas of Afghanistan and Pakistan, music is forbidden! Music, one of humanity's greatest inventions! How much of a retarded asshole do you have to be to ban music?

yeah i saw once those stuff, and that's way away from islam, like puting metal sticks in some points of body where blood don't go out, and like, making smokes and saying random things called "magic", no, that's not islam, and you tell me you know islam :/
well, covering the hair, is a personnal thing, i don't think it should be forced, because, if not wearing it is wrong, that would be between that person and god, and not between him and anyother person.
well, not allowed to dance like the whores dance, or half naked dancing, or dancing for sexual desires, i have no problem with that, i mean, like on stage, but in parties, i don't think it would be not allowed, no?

music? uuuh, by islam, no music is not forbidden, anyway, there was once, some people, like, a branche, who consider pictures of people and music, is forbidden, while there's no quranic text that prooves that, while islam is based on quran, even if someone think music is forbidden, then, don't listen to it, why would they make it forbidden for all people? again, that's a personnal thing, if it is wrong (wich i strongly doubt that it is wrong) that would be between that person and god, and it's no one else buisness..

Music and dogs are the two most important things in my life, and even though I am an avowed pacifist I would take up arms against anyone who tries to deny them to me or to my country. So I will vote for massive military spending if the Taliban--which regards itself as the role model for all pious Muslims--ever gains enough power to launch a serious attack. Not just exploding underwear that doesn't go off.The rationale behind polygamy in Islam has been twisted over the centuries, but originally it was a humanitarian practice. One of the things that was going on in Mohammed's time was massive warfare throughout the region; this is one of the main reasons Muslims still call it a "religion of peace," since arguably his main goal was to bring peace to the region. After years of war, the male population had decreased and there were a lot of widows. It was regarded as honorable for a man to take in the widows of his deceased brothers and other relatives, and treat them as his wives. If there were widows around who had no surviving male in-laws, then obviously the rule had to be stretched so that some guy with a prosperous household could take in an extra one or two.
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waow, now right here! you speak very good and clear! i like what you said here very much, but, that islam, still didnt extinct or desepeared, it still exist, wich you call "moderate" muslims, who live like everyone else but don't use drugs and don't drink alcohool and don't eat pork meat and don't make sex and other sexual things out of marriage, and to wear respectfull clothes, pray 5 times a day, and donate money to poor people, and effcorse beleive in one god and no one but god= those are the most important qualities in islam for a muslim, and yes, those people exist, and no they are not extremists like you see in tv or like in afghanistan that have been blew up and destroyed both by u.s.a (since afghanistan have alot of oil, my eyes will also go directly to u.s.a. ) and taliban

 

[Shadow1]

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oh, and the n3 is kairouan

and
inside1
inside2

 

[scifes]

I was also wondering when the Qur'an was completed? I mean, what was the day and year?

F*** you.
i went to the hellish depths of the internet to give you that date, translated and referenced.
people with short term memory loss should be banned from internet forums, since we can't whack them on the face.

 

[GeoffP]

Your English just got a lot better. Maybe conflict agrees with you.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

well, not allowed to dance like the whores dance, or half naked dancing, or dancing for sexual desires, i have no problem with that, i mean, like on stage . . . .

So you don't approve of ballet, modern dance, musical comedy, and any other type of dancing for the entertainment of others? Dance is an artform, currently one of most popular ones. To disapprove of it is to disapprove of one of the most important components of Western culture. "Half naked" is another way of saying "half clothed," so it means almost nothing. And to accuse a professional dancer, who has spent his or her whole life learning a craft that requires more energy than most professional sports, of dancing "like a whore" is a grievous insult. Sexuality is part of human nature and human culture. To suppress it so that it does not appear in public discourse is to remove reference to an important part of life from public life.

"moderate" muslims, who live like everyone else but don't use drugs and don't drink alcohol and don't eat pork meat and don't make sex and other sexual things out of marriage, and to wear respectful clothes, pray 5 times a day, and donate money to poor people, and effcorse beleive in one god and no one but god--those are the most important qualities in islam for a muslim, and yes, those people exist, and no they are not extremists

They certainly qualify as "extremists" by our definition.

• Alcohol and other drugs have their place in life; some people are weak and cannot take them safely, but for most people they are just an interesting way of temporarily gaining a different perspective on the world. I have known engineers, attorneys and artists who did some of their most creative work after assimilating the inspirations they received under the influence of "recreational" drugs.
• Pork is one of the healthiest meats available, and the land required to grow feed for cows has a far more damaging impact on the environment than raising pigs. Beef is the most environmentally irresponsible meat that is commonly consumed. Raising a cow for milk produces ten times as much protein per dollar and per unit of grain as killing it for meat.
• Adultery--sex in which at least one party is married to someone else--is not a recommended practice, but as evils go it's pretty minor. Fornication--sex between two unmarried people--is inconsequential, and in fact is often appropriate. People need to find out whether their interests and habits are compatible before they get married, and for many people that includes their sexual interests and habits. Marrying someone you've never slept with can be a disaster.
• Clothing, like all aspects of appearance, goes through fashion cycles. What is "respectful" today will be considered "offensive" tomorrow. English women used to wear gloves and veils. Today that would be regarded as rude in most situations. It is always rude to wear a mask in public that completely obscures the face in the United States--except in specific situations like skiing, a Halloween party, or an extremely cold winter. It identifies you as a robber and you may be shot out of fear.
• Praying five times a day is a tremendous disruption of our business environment. Church bells that ring once on Sunday morning are tolerated, but broadcasting prayer calls over loudspeakers that cover an entire city five times a day, seven days a week, is a "public nuisance."
• Helping the poor is always a good idea, and Americans were the most charitable people on earth until President Roosevelt turned our country into a socialist workers' "paradise" in 1933 and began raising the income tax to its current confiscatory level. The government promised that it would use that money to take care of the poor, and the uncaring, incompetent, unaccountable motherfuckers had simply better keep that promise, or else give us our damn money back so we can do it ourselves.

 

[Shadow1]

So you don't approve of ballet, modern dance, musical comedy, and any other type of dancing for the entertainment of others? Dance is an artform, currently one of most popular ones. To disapprove of it is to disapprove of one of the most important components of Western culture. "Half naked" is another way of saying "half clothed," so it means almost nothing. And to accuse a professional dancer, who has spent his or her whole life learning a craft that requires more energy than most professional sports, of dancing "like a whore" is a grievous insult. Sexuality is part of human nature and human culture. To suppress it so that it does not appear in public discourse is to remove reference to an important part of life from public life.

well, i didnt say i disaproove dancing, but i did say i disaprove the hores dancing like in night clubs, that dance around a pillar for example

They certainly qualify as "extremists" by our definition.

• Alcohol and other drugs have their place in life; some people are weak and cannot take them safely, but for most people they are just an interesting way of temporarily gaining a different perspective on the world. I have known engineers, attorneys and artists who did some of their most creative work after assimilating the inspirations they received under the influence of "recreational" drugs.
• Pork is one of the healthiest meats available, and the land required to grow feed for cows has a far more damaging impact on the environment than raising pigs. Beef is the most environmentally irresponsible meat that is commonly consumed. Raising a cow for milk produces ten times as much protein per dollar and per unit of grain as killing it for meat.
• Adultery--sex in which at least one party is married to someone else--is not a recommended practice, but as evils go it's pretty minor. Fornication--sex between two unmarried people--is inconsequential, and in fact is often appropriate. People need to find out whether their interests and habits are compatible before they get married, and for many people that includes their sexual interests and habits. Marrying someone you've never slept with can be a disaster.
• Clothing, like all aspects of appearance, goes through fashion cycles. What is "respectful" today will be considered "offensive" tomorrow. English women used to wear gloves and veils. Today that would be regarded as rude in most situations. It is always rude to wear a mask in public that completely obscures the face in the United States--except in specific situations like skiing, a Halloween party, or an extremely cold winter. It identifies you as a robber and you may be shot out of fear.
• Praying five times a day is a tremendous disruption of our business environment. Church bells that ring once on Sunday morning are tolerated, but broadcasting prayer calls over loudspeakers that cover an entire city five times a day, seven days a week, is a "public nuisance."
• Helping the poor is always a good idea, and Americans were the most charitable people on earth until President Roosevelt turned our country into a socialist workers' "paradise" in 1933 and began raising the income tax to its current confiscatory level. The government promised that it would use that money to take care of the poor, and the uncaring, incompetent, unaccountable motherfuckers had simply better keep that promise, or else give us our damn money back so we can do it ourselves.

first of all; no one would force you for that, also, no, what is called extremism for us, is a person for example who think that women are inferior or inferior than dogs like you said, and who think that everyone must be forced on those things in the list, and etc... anyway that's a personnal thing, call it what you want, what i wanted to point, is muslims are not like you media show them, and mosques calling to praying is not annoying, and, what's your problem if people are like that? it's their buisness that your's, anyway, covering the woman face is not an order, and is not a part of islam, while either weraring hijab or not, it's a personnal thing,
praying five times a day, can be delayed if you can't pray them at their time you know, so it's not an obstacle to your buisness, because if you cant find the time to it, you can do it later when you have time for it, but you should do it afterall, but it's more f avorite to be prayed at their times

 

[Pinwheel]

So when the Qur'an was completed?

 

[dbnp48]

So when the Qur'an was completed?

Muhammad received revelations over a period of 23 years. He was illiterate but his followers wrote his revelations down. The Qur'an did not exist as a book at the time of his death in 632. The third caliph Uthman ibn Affan ordered the preparation of an official, standardized version in 650. Here's the link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur'an

 

[Captain Kremmen]

Ooh, look.
People dancing around a pillar.

 

[GeoffP]

Tsk.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

Yes, I shouldn't have done that.
I know it. I'm bad. What is the Arabic for mea culpa?
But Shadow was insulting lap dancers, calling them hores.

Which is worse, insulting a rock or insulting beautiful lap dancers?

Lap Dancers. Where half of the world's Oil money is (wisely? Probably not, but certainly better) spent
Not spent on arms, but legs.

You know you'd like a lap dancer shadow. you little hypocrite

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

But Shadow was insulting lap dancers, calling them whores.

Um... As the Head Linguist around here I would say that's a pretty close call. It's certainly more accurate than "the Canadian Ballet," which is what Americans in Buffalo and the other border towns were calling them fifteen years ago.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

As a sometimes good Catholic, I shouldn't approve of lap dancers.
They shouldn't be so attractive!
btw he did say hores.

 

[dbnp48]

Um... As the Head Linguist around here I would say that's a pretty close call. It's certainly more accurate than "the Canadian Ballet," which is what Americans in Buffalo and the other border towns were calling them fifteen years ago.

A lap dancer performs suggestive motions while rubbing up against a client. This sometimes results in a client orgasm. Both parties have their clothes on.

A whore AKA prostitute engages in vaginal, oral or anal sex which virtually always results in a client orgasm. Sometimes sadomasochism or role-playing is involved. Usually, both parties have their clothes off.

That seems different to me.