City Revives Paddling, sees major improvement in Behavior

[John99]

The burden of proof is on the people who want to have their school officials hitting schoolchildren kids with sticks.

Those of us who don't want that allowed don't need evidence, even as much as we have supplied - which is sufficient, btw, for the arguments we are making. We aren't advocating such obviously questionable behavior.
No. I observe the occasional existence of perversion and self-deception in the real world.
I have every reason, and evidence from my own experience as well as thousands of accounts over hundreds of years in multiple cultures and far-flung continents, to assume that some percentage of VPs, Principals, and other school officials are occasionally dirty minded, sadistic, mean, unfair, unjust, self-deceptive in their accounts of their intentions, and not to be trusted with permission to hit schoolchildren with sticks.

Are you denying the occasional existence of perversion and self-deception, in the real world?

oh no i dont disagree at all. tbh, i just saw the word spanking and didnt realize this was the thread about schools. i already made my position on this clear that it should be left to the parents to be the parent and discipline their children so they do not infringe on the rights of others.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

A Texas City recently voted to revive corporal punishment and has noted a dramatic improvement in the behavior of the children since that time despite the fact that only one child has actually been paddled.

By Michael Birnbaum
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, April 16, 2010

TEMPLE, TEX. -- In an era when students talk back to teachers, skip class and wear ever-more-risque clothing to school, one central Texas city has hit upon a deceptively simple solution: Bring back the paddle.

Most school districts across the country banned paddling of students long ago. Texas sat that trend out. Nearly a quarter of the estimated 225,000 students who received corporal punishment nationwide in 2006, the latest figures available, were from the Lone Star State.

But even by Texas standards, Temple is unusual. The city, a compact railroad hub of 60,000 people, banned the practice and then revived it at the demand of parents who longed for the orderly schools of yesteryear. Without paddling, "there were no consequences for kids," said Steve Wright, who runs a construction business and is Temple's school board president.

Since paddling was brought back to the city's 14 schools by a unanimous board vote in May, behavior at Temple's single high school has changed dramatically, Wright said, even though only one student in the school system has been paddled.

"The discipline problem is much better than it's been in years," Wright said, something he attributed to the new punishment and to other discipline programs schools are trying. Residents of the city's comfortable homes, most of which sport neighborly, worn chairs out front, praise the change.

"There are times when maybe a good crack might not be a bad idea," said Robert Pippin, a custom home builder who sports a goatee and cowboy boots. His son graduated from Temple schools several years ago.

Corporal punishment remains legal in 20 states, mostly in the South, but its use is diminishing. Ohio ended it last year, and a movement for a federal ban is afoot. A House subcommittee held a hearing on the practice Thursday, and its chairman, Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-N.Y.), is gearing up for a push to end the practice once and for all. She plans to introduce legislation within weeks. ​

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/15/AR2010041505964.html
You've got to love Texas.

I have no issues with most forms of punishment as long as its the parents that carry it out. This instance is not the case. If a stranger punished my child I would hurt him. On the other hand if a stranger pointed out my childs negative behavior, I would discipline my child.

 

[Bells]

Why dont you try that some time yourself?

I have provided several links throughout this thread. Why don't you try reading it sometime.

 

[Bells]

I have no issues with most forms of punishment as long as its the parents that carry it out. This instance is not the case. If a stranger punished my child I would hurt him. On the other hand if a stranger pointed out my childs negative behavior, I would discipline my child.

Exactly. It is the delegation of punishment that grates more than anything and the attempt to justify said delegation. If you can't bring yourself to hit your own child, you shouldnt delegate for others to do it.

 

[John99]

I have provided several links throughout this thread. Why don't you try reading it sometime.

Links are not necessarily 'scientific proof'. I thought this was the other thread, as i explained in the post above. I do not agree with the OP.

 

[Kennyc]

Paddling in schools performs the same function as the death penalty does in larger society.

Both are important. Both are needed.

 

[Tiassa]

So ... nothing useful, then?

Paddling in schools performs the same function as the death penalty does in larger society.

Satisfies a primal, animalistic need for revenge?

 

[Kennyc]

Satisfies a primal, animalistic need for revenge?

Not really.

 

[Neverfly]

No. I observe the occasional existence of perversion and self-deception in the real world. I observe that self-description of "intent" is not reliable information in this situation.

You used no descriptives that made it occasional or possible or remote...
You simply said, twice, sadistic-- dirty mind.

I have every reason, and evidence from my own experience as well as thousands of accounts over hundreds of years in multiple cultures and far-flung continents, to assume that some percentage of VPs, Principals, and other school officials are occasionally dirty minded, sadistic, mean, unfair, unjust, self-deceptive in their accounts of their intentions, and not to be trusted with permission to hit schoolchildren with sticks.

Now that you've used proper descriptives, I can agree.
There ARE occasional bad cops, too.

Are you denying the occasional existence of perversion and self-deception, in the real world?

No and it's irrelevant. What you are replying to is the result of you NOT saying "occasional."
You labeled a School Administrator is simply twisted right off the bat. It was a general statement from you.

 

[iceaura]

You used no descriptives that made it occasional or possible or remote...
You simply said, twice, sadistic-- dirty mind.

I used the singular throughout, not that it matters - even with the plural, nowhere there is a universal claim made or implied.

None is necessary, for the argument. Don't forget about the actual argument, OK - I was responding to Ophiolite's attempt to define certain kinds of hitting as non-violent due to the "intent" of the hitter alone.

Are you denying the occasional existence of perversion and self-deception, in the real world?
”
No and it's irrelevant.

It's directly relevant, to the argument being made.

Even the advocates of hitting these kids defend only justified, properly moderated, well-intentioned hitting. One of my points was that they cannot possibly guarantee that.

The other, equally telling, point is that the best intentioned hitting is problematical, considering what we see of subsequent events in the lives of the hit. At best, we see "normal" adults - no apparent harm done.

 

[Psyche]

There is no such thing as relativism when it comes to the conduct of how we should treat the young. Forcibly confining them in buildings with strangers who don't care about them and then giving said strangers the power to use physical force on them (on top of humiliation) if they don't behave like easily manageable obedient drones is dangerous and pathological. It’s symptomatic of a society that has absolutely no ability to experience genuine empathy, and is only interested in controlling and exploiting the vulnerable.

 

[Pandaemoni]

Bells:
The claim that modern children are more disrespectful is apparent on all fronts.

"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly disrespectful, impatient and wild."
--Hesiod

"Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers."
--Socrates

"What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?"
--Plato, student of Socrates

Every generation says the same things about kids. It is not "apparent" at all that it is ever true.

 

[Neverfly]

I used the singular throughout, not that it matters - even with the plural, nowhere there is a universal claim made or implied.

Yes, it is. If you make the general statement, it is implied.

If you had not meant it that way, so be it. You've now learned to not call School Administrators Dirty minded or Sadistic without clarifying that you meant the few that actually may be.

None is necessary, for the argument. Don't forget about the actual argument, OK - I was responding to Ophiolite's attempt to define certain kinds of hitting as non-violent due to the "intent" of the hitter alone.
It's directly relevant, to the argument being made.

It is only relevant in cases discussed outside what the OP covers.

Even the advocates of hitting these kids defend only justified, properly moderated, well-intentioned hitting. One of my points was that they cannot possibly guarantee that.

This is true.
This is why I have been defending their position.

That it cannot be guaranteed and that there is not enough evidence of benefit is why I've retracted my claims and changed sides.

Changing my position in order to increase accuracy does not, however, mean that I am going to agree with all the "anti" arguments made.

The other, equally telling, point is that the best intentioned hitting is problematical, considering what we see of subsequent events in the lives of the hit. At best, we see "normal" adults - no apparent harm done.

This topic alone would be a deep discussion.

Simply because we have little solid evidence to go on of the factors of development.

Every generation says the same things about kids. It is not "apparent" at all that it is ever true.

Good point.
I'll consider that statement refuted.

 

[Kennyc]

There is no such thing as relativism when it comes to the conduct of how we should treat the young. Forcibly confining them in buildings with strangers who don't care about them and then giving said strangers the power to use physical force on them (on top of humiliation) if they don't behave like easily manageable obedient drones is dangerous and pathological. It’s symptomatic of a society that has absolutely no ability to experience genuine empathy, and is only interested in controlling and exploiting the vulnerable.

Wow.

Interesting the angles and pov some take on this.

Do you really feel schools are evil?

 

[sifreak21]

[

You are going to debate the use of the word?

yes spanking and hitting are 2 different words

Again, provide scientific evidence that "spanking" is beneficial to children in the long term. Studies have been done and they found that it was not beneficial to children in the long term. Surely some studies have been done to show the opposite, since you keep pushing that same argument. Provide some links.

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/6/t062100.asp
scroll down

You would "spank" a child for throwing a ball?

if the child didn't listen to what i was saying after all other options are used yes

You would ground a child for throwing a ball?

read above

How about this alternative. Take all the balls away from little Timmy. You know, remove temptation? Explain to Timmy why you don't want him to throw the ball anymore. You know, take time and actually try to get them to understand why his throwing the ball is bad.

my parents did take balls away i found something else to do that i knew was wrong.
lets try your way and twist and patronize me for my beliefs
so you would take ever ball away from the child?

I see that spanking has not helped you much with the use of the english language.

Personal attack

Lets taser children!

You are aware that the police are constantly investigated in the use of tasers and for police brutality, right? That the use of tasers is highly regulated. You do know this, right?

never once did i say tazer children your the one who keeps comparing children to adults

yes i know they are.. they should only be used when the officer is being over ran by the suspect and is unarmed. they are more for females i want to See a 130lb female take on an 260 built guy not going to happen. the taser evens the playing field and gives the officer the upper hand.. to be quite honest id rather get tasered 100 times then hit in the face with a baton

I had a case, several years ago, where a spouse attempted to use that very argument about the "spanking" he gave his wife on a daily basis. In his mind, he was not violating or abusing her, nor was he causing any damage. He was just attempting to educate her about the right way of doing things. It didn't get very far.

again your talking about adults this topic is about children yet you keep bringing adults into it. if you touch me its assault if you touch your child its not
if you spank a child properly after all options are exhausted you explain to the child what they did wrong and pat them on the butt it is very effective

spanking or touching an adult is assault. spanking your child is not this has been said many many times i guess you just refuse to read it

The very act of hitting someone is a violation against that other person, and yes, children are people too. You can refer to it by any name, be it spanking, smacking, slapping, the act itself is indicative of raising one's hand or object (eg paddle, hair brush, belt) and striking another person. How is that not violent in your eyes?

yes its a violation between 2 adults 2 kids that but from parent - child not pulling pants down is not when did i say paddle hair brush wtf? and belt i never said to use any object i had them used on me yes i never said using an object once again twisting what I'm saying

Referring to it as corporal punishment does not take away the simple fact that you are hitting another individual with force. You can try to pretty it up and say that you are trying to educate or communicate to the child that their behaviour is innappropriate. It still does not detract from the very simple fact that you are striking that child in doing so. Hitting another person is violent. It doesn't make it less so because the individual being spanked/hit/smacked/paddled is a child.

if you give someone a high five your hitting them with force too. in the article i believe it was the parents who pushed for it.

If you spank an adult and whether it leaves a mark or not, it is still assault. If you spank a child and it doesn't leave a mark, it is not deemed as assault, but is viewed as a form of communication. It is only deemed assault if it bruises the child. Those rules only apply to children. Spanking an adult, bruise or no bruise, is deemed violent and abusive. What I want to know is why the same rules do not apply to children? They don't even apply to animals. If you spank a dog to teach it the error of its ways and to train it, you can find yourself arrested and jailed. But if you do the same to a child, it is acceptable. It is astounding to me how this can be so and how and why people attempt to justify it.

pointless argument STOP COMPARING CHILDREN TO ADULTS its not the same! now your comparing children to animals dogs are about as smart as a 2 year old thats about it and hitting any how is abuse why? because you can explain to the dog 100000000times why you did it he still wont understand your reasoning outside of maybe chewing crap he still wont understand why with a dog you physically close its mouth huddle over it and wait a min or 2 physically touching the dog to get the point across i want to see you train a dog without ever touching him or her its impossible

Would you advocate the same argument against the mentally disabled?

No, reason is because they don't know what they are doing is wrong "depending on what type of disability is"

There is no exact balance, because every child is different. But all the studies I have read over the years all point to the same thing. Hitting a child, call it spanking, smacking, paddling, etc, is still a violent act against a child. It may provide an immediate desired reaction from the child, but there is a risk of long term damage. And with some children, more so.

it doesn't matter how many studies you have read quite frankly i don't give a fuck, I went through getting spanked it it has had no effect on me. and I'm sure theres millions more out there just like me. having gone Through it no amount of studies is going to make me believe that spanking has long term effects "if used properly" on the child I'm living proof of that and what were the symptoms of these long term effects? a study like that would need to take at least 20 years to complete

Would you do the same with your children?

spank them? yes

My parents never once threatened me to do well in school. Not once. I was brought up to believe that the only thing they expected from me was for me to try my best and not give up. And I did pretty well. Never got into trouble and never even got detention and I got straight A's. Instead of threats of violence, I was supported by my parents.

doing your best and not trying are 2 different things... I'm positive if your parents knew how smart you were and just flat out weren't trying or just enough to get by they would have taken action if not thats a parent failure in my opinion.

IE if you know your child is a B student and is getting all Ds

He's willing to "spank" a child for throwing a ball. Instead of taking all the balls away and explaining why he's doing it, instead of explaining why he doesn't want "Timmy" to not throw the ball, instead of explaining why Timmy is getting the time out's, etc, he rather just "spank" because apparently all the other methods failed. What do you think he could have done differently? I'll give eyou a hint.. explained to Timmy why he did not want him to throw the ball.. You know, take time and get down to their level and explain things to them.

personal attack, on an example.. priceless

its all HE, HE, HE this isn't about me alone its about spanking in general i don't appreciate you pointing the finger at me for my beliefs and millions of others feel the same way that i do if spanking is used properly its a great tool with 0 side effects i don't give a fuck what studies say im living proof of that..

I'm a bad speller so? just noticed the spell check thing up there ill put it to use.

and finally i respect your opinion on spanking if you spank them great if you choose not to thats also great this whole debate is you attacking and not respecting me for my opinions when i respect yours. so instead of trying to call me out on examples trying to connect spanking with spelling personally attacking me how about you just talk about it in general. the only reason i put myself in the mix is because i was spanked and have had 0 side effects.. if my parents hadn't taken punishments to that level i wouldn't be as successful as i am right now. and no amount of studies you post will make me change my mind the fact is they are wrong all of them unless they put "in some cases"

 

[Psyche]

Wow.

Interesting the angles and pov some take on this.

Do you really feel schools are evil?

Given that school pretty much destroyed my will to exist I have no problem making this claim. If one is so inclined to dig deep into the history of schooling, the view of human nature that the authoritarian-behaviorist method of traditional educational practice forces into people, and learn to deconstruct the classroom environment from first principles rather than accepting it all at face value, its clear that the reality of schools is a far cry from the mythology that we’re taught. On this topic, the author John Taylor Gatto is a crucial voice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ogC...32541FC5&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=19

 

[CutsieMarie89]

He's willing to "spank" a child for throwing a ball. Instead of taking all the balls away and explaining why he's doing it, instead of explaining why he doesn't want "Timmy" to not throw the ball, instead of explaining why Timmy is getting the time out's, etc, he rather just "spank" because apparently all the other methods failed. What do you think he could have done differently? I'll giv eyou a hint.. explained to Timmy why he did not want him to throw the ball.. You know, take time and get down to their level and explain things to them.

From how I was raised... In sifreak21's example, Timmy's throwing of the ball is not what Timmy is in trouble for after the first or second time you have to tell Timmy to stop, he can no longer claim ignorance. Timmy has been asked not to throw the ball, Timmy has been explained to, why throwing the ball is bad. Assuming Timmy is not an infant and each instance is not taking place several weeks apart, he is being obstinate and defiant on purpose. Timmy should be in trouble for being disobedient and not listening, not simply because he was throwing a ball.

Is that not the issue you would address if your child was behaving in the same manner, repeatedly doings things they had been told not to do?

 

[sifreak21]

From how I was raised... In sifreak21's example, Timmy's throwing of the ball is not what Timmy is in trouble for after the first or second time you have to tell Timmy to stop, he can no longer claim ignorance. Timmy has been asked not to throw the ball, Timmy has been explained to, why throwing the ball is bad. Assuming Timmy is not an infant and each instance is not taking place several weeks apart, he is being obstinate and defiant on purpose. Timmy should be in trouble for being disobedient and not listening, not simply because he was throwing a ball.

Is that not the issue you would address if your child was behaving in the same manner, repeatedly doings things they had been told not to do?

thats exactly what i meant. its not that Timmy is throwing the ball its that Timmy is disobeying his parent and yes they happened right after each other not over weeks

 

[Bells]

[
yes spanking and hitting are 2 different words

What are you doing when you spank someone?

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/6/t062100.asp
scroll down

This is the first paragraph after I did scroll down to the small part that advises for parents who will still spank their children:

By now you should realize that our position on spanking is simple: don't. But we are also experienced enough to realize that some loving, nurturing, committed parents believe in spanking as part of their overall discipline package. As a pediatrician with thirty years in practice, I am also quite aware that regardless of our advice against spanking, some parents are going to spank their children. For these parents, the best we can hope for is to help them spank in a way that is less likely to become abusive. Consider these suggestions.​

It's still telling parents that they shouldn't do it.

Good link.

if the child didn't listen to what i was saying after all other options are used yes

But you didn't use all the other options, did you?

my parents did take balls away i found something else to do that i knew was wrong.
lets try your way and twist and patronize me for my beliefs
so you would take ever ball away from the child?

Yes. And I have often. I have also taken their lego away as well as their other favourite toys.

never once did i say tazer children your the one who keeps comparing children to adults

yes i know they are.. they should only be used when the officer is being over ran by the suspect and is unarmed. they are more for females i want to See a 130lb female take on an 260 built guy not going to happen. the taser evens the playing field and gives the officer the upper hand.. to be quite honest id rather get tasered 100 times then hit in the face with a baton

I am comparing them to adults because they are human beings, like adults are human beings. And yet, because they are smaller and are less mentally developed than adults, they automatically have less rights than adults. I am asking why that is?

again your talking about adults this topic is about children yet you keep bringing adults into it. if you touch me its assault if you touch your child its not
if you spank a child properly after all options are exhausted you explain to the child what they did wrong and pat them on the butt it is very effective

spanking or touching an adult is assault. spanking your child is not this has been said many many times i guess you just refuse to read it

But why does the adult have more rights and protection at law against "spanking" than a child? That is what I am asking and no one has been able to give an answer. Why is it assault for me to spank you but not to spank a child?

Why is a child less deserving of legal rights and protection enjoyed by adults?

yes its a violation between 2 adults 2 kids that but from parent - child not pulling pants down is not when did i say paddle hair brush wtf? and belt i never said to use any object i had them used on me yes i never said using an object once again twisting what I'm saying

Have you grasped yet, what this whole thread is about?

It is about schools using a paddle on a child. Or more to the point, a child who was paddled at a school.

if you give someone a high five your hitting them with force too. in the article i believe it was the parents who pushed for it.

Do you think it's right that they pushed for hitting their child with a paddle?

pointless argument STOP COMPARING CHILDREN TO ADULTS its not the same! now your comparing children to animals dogs are about as smart as a 2 year old thats about it and hitting any how is abuse why? because you can explain to the dog 100000000times why you did it he still wont understand your reasoning outside of maybe chewing crap he still wont understand why with a dog you physically close its mouth huddle over it and wait a min or 2 physically touching the dog to get the point across i want to see you train a dog without ever touching him or her its impossible

Okay. I'll make it simple for you.

1) "Spanking" an adult is deemed assault. Be it with a hand or paddle or belt or whatever a person uses to do the "spanking".

2) "Spanking" a dog is deemed animal cruelty. Be it with a hand or paddle or belt or whatever a person uses to do the "spanking".

3) "Spanking" a child is not deemed assault or cruelty towards that child. You can use your hand, paddle or belt and it would not be deemed assault.

Why is it illegal in the first two but not the third? Why is it illegal to spank an adult or even a dog, but not a child? Why does an adult and a dog have more protection at law than a child does against spanking?

No, reason is because they don't know what they are doing is wrong "depending on what type of disability is"

What of an adult who has the same mental capacity of a 7 year old?

it doesn't matter how many studies you have read quite frankly i don't give a fuck, I went through getting spanked it it has had no effect on me. and I'm sure theres millions more out there just like me. having gone Through it no amount of studies is going to make me believe that spanking has long term effects "if used properly" on the child I'm living proof of that and what were the symptoms of these long term effects? a study like that would need to take at least 20 years to complete

Some of the studies I have posted have been running for more than 20 years. Some have continued on from other studies.

spank them? yes

Would you delegate and allow others to spank your children?

doing your best and not trying are 2 different things... I'm positive if your parents knew how smart you were and just flat out weren't trying or just enough to get by they would have taken action if not thats a parent failure in my opinion.

IE if you know your child is a B student and is getting all Ds

As my grade 3 teacher found out, "spanking" and hitting a child in a bid to get them to do better has the opposite affect. My mother was a school teacher and she knew that spanking a child to do better would more often than not result in the child doing worse.

its all HE, HE, HE this isn't about me alone its about spanking in general i don't appreciate you pointing the finger at me for my beliefs and millions of others feel the same way that i do if spanking is used properly its a great tool with 0 side effects i don't give a fuck what studies say im living proof of that..

Of course. And next time you are sick, you will not go to a doctor to ask for their expert advice, correct? Because you don't give a "fuck" about what studies or experts think on the matter.

I am a person who can tell you exactly of the detrimental affects of spanking or corporal punishment on a person's psyche. Do you know why? Because of the 'corrective' treatment I received from my grade 3 teacher and from having to sit there and watch as a grade 5 teacher used similar means against a deaf child for not listening. The damage it does to you mentally stays with you for life. One cannot see it on the outside, but it is there. You go to any jail and ask prisoners whether they were spanked as children and I can assure you, the greater majority of them will say yes. Their being spanked and corrected by their parents did not prevent them from turning to crime or being aggressive.

Studies have shown time and again that spanking has a higher chance of leading a child to be aggressive. To believe that violence is acceptable. I know you do not give a fuck what studies show, but that is what it is showing. Corporal punishment is deemed a human rights violation, did you know that? Why do you think that is? Why do paediatricians advocate against spanking? Why do psychologists and psychiatrists also advocate against spanking and advocating for making corporal punishment in schools, for example, illegal? Why do you think that is?

and finally i respect your opinion on spanking if you spank them great if you choose not to thats also great this whole debate is you attacking and not respecting me for my opinions when i respect yours. so instead of trying to call me out on examples trying to connect spanking with spelling personally attacking me how about you just talk about it in general. the only reason i put myself in the mix is because i was spanked and have had 0 side effects.. if my parents hadn't taken punishments to that level i wouldn't be as successful as i am right now. and no amount of studies you post will make me change my mind the fact is they are wrong all of them unless they put "in some cases"

I will tell you this. I respect you more for doing the spanking yourself than for delegating it to a 3rd party to do it for you.

 

[Psyche]

Trailer for The War on Kids, an excellent documentary about Public Education: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nlnwm11d6II&feature=related