Church will burn Quran

[superstring01]

I say this all the time but it's never done for Muslims or Islam on this forum.

Islam (and it's host nations) is currently the only religion where people still take the to streets over a cartoon, still considers stoning a women over adultery (though, with considerable international petition, she might just avoid being stoned to death, but could still be executed by some other means), has a heartily enforced death penalty for homosexuality (and, what LUCK, Muslim nations have recently been joined by a backwards nation in the middle of the African jungle) and still beheads people for witchcraft (oh, yeah, that one was barely averted. . . sorry). One doesn't see even remotely the same thing in non-Islamic nations. So, generally speaking, Muslims can safely be judged as quite backwards.

Name a single cultural, economic, scientific or medical creation in the last 100 years to come from an Islamic nation.

Religions and societies that obsessively oppress minds and people tend to struggle with contributing anything of value to the world around them.

~String

 

[Ja'far at-Tahir]

Class: To day the part of Jesus will be played by Mohammad and the Qur'an will replace the Bible*

Are you serious? This is stupid, come on, I thought you had a little bit more knowledge of Islam than this. I realize it's a joke but come on.

In the modern world multiculturalism is going to continue and with it a plethora of beliefs. Now we're faced with the implications of a One True God in a world of many True Gods.

4 of the 5 major world religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Hinduism) believe in the unity of God. Infact a lot of religions believe in the one God however all of this irrelevant. I don't have to accept any prophets after Muhammad (saw) to be able to show respect and tolerance towards non-Muslims which this is what this is really about, a lack of respect and tolerance. If Christians do not accept the prophethood of Muhammad (saw) fine, this doesn't bother me, it's when you do things like this, burning al-Qur'an and other such things that I have a problem with, it's purely a lack of respect and tolerance. I can be a devout Muslim convinced in my belief of Islam and still live side by side with Jews, Christians, Baha'is, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. and show them respect and tolerance towards their respective faiths.

As usual, I don't think you get 'it'.

 

[Bells]

Indeed. Did you know that the Quran actually teaches that islam is supposed to be made victorious over all other religions, even when others are adverse to changing?

There is that implication, yes. The Muslim Brotherhood has this as one of its goals; "destroying Western civilization from within", and so forth.

Which has what to do with this thread?

We are discussing a bunch of uneducated yokels burning the Quran and calling Islam evil and the devil, and you two come in here discussing the supposed desire of Muslims to take over the world?

Troll much?



----------------------------------------------------------

Back to the subject of the OP:

A very interesting question about how Jones and his little church is being looked by his fellow evangelical pastors:

Tennessee Lt. Gov. Ron Ramsey, lagging in polls in the Republican gubernatorial primary race, according to Talking Points Memo, says he's not sure if Constitutional guarantees of freedom of religion apply to Islam, since, he says, Islam may be a cult, not actually a religion.

Now, you could even argue whether being a Muslim is actually a religion, or is it a nationality, way of life, cult whatever you want to call it.​

Ramsey did not dispute the video of his remarks posted at TPM and answered its request for comment with an email:

My concern is that far too much of Islam has come to resemble a violent political philosophy more than peace-loving religion. It's time for American Muslims who love this country to publicly renounce violent jihadism and to drum those who seek to do America harm out of their faith community.​

So, are the vast majority of U.S. pastors who would never dream of burning a Quran going to call out the Dove World Outreach Center?


(Source)

 

[Bells]

Islam (and it's host nations) is currently the only religion where people still take the to streets over a cartoon, still considers stoning a women over adultery (though, with considerable international petition, she might just avoid being stoned to death, but could still be executed by some other means), has a heartily enforced death penalty for homosexuality (and, what LUCK, Muslim nations have recently been joined by a backwards nation in the middle of the African jungle) and still beheads people for witchcraft (oh, yeah, that one was barely averted. . . sorry). One doesn't see even remotely the same thing in non-Islamic nations. So, generally speaking, Muslims can safely be judged as quite backwards.

You serious?

:bugeye:

You come from a country where your previous leader was spouting that God told him to launch a war on another country, that has people going on rants about homosexual marriage and has had pastors calling for burning of children's books and for the ban of children's movies because it will encourage children to get into witchcraft, not to mention have religious organisations that support the bombing of abortion clinics and murdering staff who work in such clinics and hospitals, as well as one or two religious groups who protest at funeral of homosexual people in their communities and others...

So, you serious?

 

[synthesizer-patel]

Of course, I was waiting for the laughing fool to post his usual horseshit. I could explain why you're a moron but I know it would go over you're head and really it's not like you would respond with a coherent response anyway, is it? I honestly don't even think you're capable of doing so even if you tried. Tell you what, I have a nice shiney set of keys, that should entertain you for about an hour or 4. Run along child, adults are talking.

Clearly you aren't impressed by Q's comment.

Could you perchance explain to us why?

 

[Ja'far at-Tahir]

So in response to me bitching about the hypocrisy of this forum, you respond with this? The exact same thing I was bitching about? Interesting.

still beheads people for witchcraft(oh, yeah, that one was barely averted. . . sorry).

Taken from the same article you posted:

"A Shi'ite Muslim, Sibat traveled to Saudi Arabia in 2008 to perform a religious pilgrimage known as 'umra,' when he was arrested by Saudi's religious police who accused him of practicing sorcery."

Translation: a Shi'i man was arrested by Wahhabis and accused of some nonsense on the account of being Shi'a.

 

[Michael]

Are you serious? This is stupid, come on, I thought you had a little bit more knowledge of Islam than this. I realize it's a joke but come on.

Those are the aspects that lead to some Christians burning the Qur'an.

OK, Ja'far, you tell me. Objectively, explain why these Christians came to the conclusion they needed to burn a Qur'an. COULD they be the very same underlying meme's that led the Taliban to destroy those 2500 year old Buddhas (and let's not forget this wasn't the first time Muslims had tried to smash those monuments to Buddha).

It is my opinion that the following three memes encourage intolerance towards other people's faith often leading to acts of aggression, disrespect and violence:
- There is only One God and it ('He') is ours.
- There is only One Perfect infallible Revelation and it is ours.
- This Revelation is Final (ending with 'our' Messiah/Last Prophet)

Of course there are differences in theology. Christianity seemingly revolves around asking for forgiveness while Islam around submission. But, it are these memes (list above) are the similarities that I believe lead to very similar intolerant behaviors.


There's an interesting bit of historical trivia about a Japanese Buddhist monk who, coincidentally, came to the exact same meme conclusions. He thought 'He' was given the Perfect Buddhist Revelation. He was the Last. He convinced both himself and his followers that he was the 'True' Buddha. They went around burning down Temples and destroying Shinto Shrines.
- After 3 years, the local Lord decided there was nothing else he could do and so had them all rounded up and executed.
- In this case, these types of memes lost.
But, if you're keen to really think about this stuff, you might want to research such incidents. The seem to show up and again and again.


It's my position that we (society) don't need One God, One Book, One Prophet/Messiah. These are not required for a perfectly healthy superstition. They're kind of like baggage that it's time to drop off at the docks.

4 of the 5 major world religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Hinduism) believe in the unity of God. Infact a lot of religions believe in the one God however all of this irrelevant. I don't have to accept any prophets after Muhammad (saw) to be able to show respect and tolerance towards non-Muslims which this is what this is really about, a lack of respect and tolerance. If Christians do not accept the prophethood of Muhammad (saw) fine, this doesn't bother me, it's when you do things like this, burning al-Qur'an and other such things that I have a problem with, it's purely a lack of respect and tolerance. I can be a devout Muslim convinced in my belief of Islam and still live side by side with Jews, Christians, Baha'is, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. and show them respect and tolerance towards their respective faiths.

Yes, I totally understand where you are coming from. The difference is I'm willing to face up to the underlying issues.

OK, let me ask you your opinion on another historical scenario. In the ancient Chinese capitol of Chang'an, in the year 750, there lived about 1 million people. It was the largest city in the world. Chinese did trade all over the known world. The Buddhist Chinese paid for and build Mosques for visiting Muslims - and a recent discovery showed even Nestorian Christians lived in the city. Of course the city was brimming with Buddhist and Taoist Temples as well, but, they made their trading partners feel welcome. In the same way YOUR paragraph suggests people should behave. With tolerance and respect.

My Question to you: What about Baghdad? Muslims did a lot of trade with Chinese and Hindus. How many Hindu and Buddhist Temples did Muslims build for their Chinese and Indian guests? Why?

As usual, I don't think you get 'it'.

How many Hindu and Buddhist Temples did Muslims build for their Chinese and Indian guests? Why?


Do you think that Hindu Temples should be allowed to be built in Media and Mecca for the visiting Hindu that live and work there (as well as those Muslims that have converted to that faith)?

 

[Michael]

Of the top 5 major World religions THREE are non-monotheists.
- Christianity
- Islam
- Hinduism
- Buddhism
- Chinese folk Religions

 

[Michael]

We are discussing a bunch of uneducated yokels burning the Quran and calling Islam evil and the devil, and you two come in here discussing the supposed desire of Muslims to take over the world?

I don't think we should write these guys off as backwards yokel-locals. While their a level or two more crazy on the faith-o-meter, not much so. I see it more a sign of the times, something one would expect to see as the world shrinks and people have to deal with different and diverse faiths living with one another.

There's better life-philosophies out there that can cater to the needs of the superstitious as well as teach good morals. This is the conversation we need to have.

 

[synthesizer-patel]

There's better life-philosophies out there that can cater to the needs of the superstitious as well as teach good morals. This is the conversation we need to have.

Perhaps, but the clincher will be if they still allow people to gain wealth and influence from the peddling of said life-philosophies

 

[Tiassa]

Arid and barren

You serious?

:bugeye:

You come from a country ....

I think you're overreacting, but only because I find our neighbor's answer somewhat ... er ... how about expected? No, not specifically from him, but in general. Eventually, someone's going to say it.

But, to the other, beyond the superficial merits of the grim picture he paints, there really isn't much else. The soil is barren, nor does his seed of idea find rain.

In the end, the argument he put forward is all there is. There isn't any real way to develop it, because, as Americans, he and I hit a specific wall. That is, if we start accounting for the factors leading to certain notable symptoms within the sociopolitical dynamics, it turns out that what is needed to alleviate thse manifestations happens to counteract American economic and sociopolitical interests.

And that conundrum is symptomatic of America.

Some important factors in establishing American magnitude as an empire or international political influence need not only the conditions that lead to the symptom, but also the symptom itself. And from sea to shininng sea, you are absolutely guaranteed to find at least one person to whom this cause and effect is irrelevant, obscured, or simply inconvenient. Today you've encountered him, but he's hardly the only one.

 

[GeoffP]

Which has what to do with this thread?

We are discussing a bunch of uneducated yokels burning the Quran and calling Islam evil and the devil, and you two come in here discussing the supposed desire of Muslims to take over the world?

Troll much?

Oh yes, a very great deal.

You'll recall that I was asked a specific question. I gave a specific answer. The issue came up probably because of Ja'fir's unsupported assertions about Islam vis-a-vis Christianity:

This is so outrageous I don't even know where to begin. I mean, in Islam, we recognize their holy books.

I said weeelll, not exactly in response; it was sort of a disingenuous assertion, IMHO. Sort of Tiassa's other gorilla in the room; farcical, but a parade favourite. I suppose things got out of hand from there. We promise to keep it down in future, mom.

 

[Adstar]

This is the news from CNN:



I can not be so sure, but my guess is that even the crusades couldn't plan such a weird action a thousand years ago. As a non-believer, it doesn't bother me in any religious level; but I can see it will cause unnecessary tension.

It is an unnecessary provocative act. No need to burn any books.

True Christians allow the message of Jesus to defeat the deception of the quran in those who have a love for the truth.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Ja'far at-Tahir]

True Christians allow the message of Jesus to defeat the deception of the quran in those who have a love for the truth.

This opinion, actually, is something that I would accept. It leaves the differences between our two faiths to the realm of intellectual-theological debate instead of mindless violence and offensive expressions of hatred.

 

[Ja'far at-Tahir]

Hinduism

Hinduism, from what I understand, is "Monotheistic," at heart.

 

[Ja'far at-Tahir]

Those are the aspects that lead to some Christians burning the Qur'an.

How? How is that specific sentence "aspects that lead some," to X?

OK, Ja'far, you tell me. Objectively, explain why these Christians came to the conclusion they needed to burn a Qur'an.

There is probably numerous psychological reasons as to why an individual or a group of individuals would choose to express there opinions in this specific manner however I am not a psychologist nor sociologist so I can't really comment in this regard with any authority. Also, I don't think an irrational act needs an objective or rational explaination as far as this conversation is concerned because ultimately it's irrelevant.

- There is only One God and it ('He') is ours.
- There is only One Perfect infallible Revelation and it is ours.
- This Revelation is Final (ending with 'our' Messiah/Last Prophet)

None of these beliefs would inherently lead one to acts of agression and so on and really this only reflects you're anti-religious bias and it's simply an assumption. Also, you're stripping X religion of all it's other teachings and reducing it to 3 points of which you are saying it leads to X assumption inherently which seems silly and absurd. In both Islam and Christianity there exists teachings which advocate tolerance and respect for other peoples regardless of differing faith or creed. There is no reason at all why one can't be both devout in their faith while also appreciate and respect others around them. There is no rational reason as to why this can't be so. Why you leave this totally out of the question is beyond aside from I think due to you're anti-religious bias, you have assumed that this view is impossible.

 

[Michael]

Hinduism, from what I understand, is "Monotheistic," at heart.

4 of the 5 major world religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Hinduism) believe in the unity of God.

Some forms apparently, many say it's more henotheistic.

But, then again, some people say Shia are polytheistic.

Googled it and here was the top hit: Smashing the Bahai Cult: They are just mushriks (polytheists)

The Bahai faith is just a cult. I think the best way to refute this cult is by exposing the shirk that they do. Keep in mind that the Bahai cult arose from extremist Shi'ism, so all the odious polytheistic practises of Shi'ism found themselves in the Bahai cult.

The vitriol is almost dripping off that post.... the sad thing is it doesn't need to be that way. It's all made up, we can make it up better


Do you think that Hindu Temples should be allowed to be built in Media and Mecca? I'm curious.

 

[Ja'far at-Tahir]

Could you perchance explain to us why?

As are all of his posts, their just pointless insults and there is no argument/counter-argument, ever. They add absolutly nothing to the discussion, are often off-topic and non-sequiter and it appears he can't have a conversation with anyone here, it's just the same pathetic, juvenile shit over and over and over again. It seems he just trolls the religious threads to post some edgey teenage Atheist jabs at those "stewpid," religious folk.

 

[Michael]

None of these beliefs would inherently lead one to acts of agression and so on and really this only reflects you're anti-religious bias and it's simply an assumption. Also, you're stripping X religion of all it's other teachings and reducing it to 3 points of which you are saying it leads to X assumption inherently which seems silly and absurd. In both Islam and Christianity there exists teachings which advocate tolerance and respect for other peoples regardless of differing faith or creed. There is no reason at all why one can't be both devout in their faith while also appreciate and respect others around them. There is no rational reason as to why this can't be so. Why you leave this totally out of the question is beyond aside from I think due to you're anti-religious bias, you have assumed that this view is impossible.

Well, yes, I am stripping it down. No, I'm not anti-religious. I've said many times I support the world view that for now people need some sort of superstition. So, I support forms of religion.

Yes, those few memes are enough to tip the balance in some people's head and out weight ALL the other morals. So, why keep them? You can still teach the other morals. Buddhists, Shinto, Taoists, Native American faith - these have the same moral prerogatives. There is absolutely nothing morally superior found in any monotheism.


Do you think teaching a child to believe the White Race is the Perfect race and more Superior than all the rest, that this could taint their views of all other things (namely non White people)? Well? We know race is an illusion - so what good would come from teaching someone such a thing? Nothing.

Why teach religious bigotry????

 

[Michael]

Also, I don't think an irrational act needs an objective or rational explaination as far as this conversation is concerned because ultimately it's irrelevant.

Thousands of Ahmadiyya Muslims are persecuted and even murdered for their believe in a New Prophet and Revelation.

How do you explain Indonesian Muslims voting 80% support to outright ban and make illegal Ahmadiyya Muslims faith? Is that "too psychological"? How about when a few hundred Ahmadiyya Pakistani Muslims were murdered in Pakistan by other Muslims?

It's not "too pychological" it's very obvious and you can ask the people themselves. They'll tell you the Ahmadiyya Muslims broke two of the rules: A New Prophet, a New Revelation.




Do you think that Hindu Temples to the Goddess Shiva should be allowed to be built in Medina and Mecca? I'm curious.