Church will burn Quran

[nirakar]

Judaism is older than zoroastrianism

Wrong.

The age of Zoroastrianism keeps getting pushed back further in time by modern scholars while the age of Judaism keeps getting younger.

Judaism is older than zoroastrianism and never worshipped the sun.

While you did not make up the sun worshiping bit it is incorrect to say that Zorastrians worshiped the sun.

The many minor offshoots from Zorastrianism may have done who knows what.

JThese two never met till much time after Judaism evolved.

First Judaism like everything else probably borrowed from the beginning all over.
God creating the Earth in six days was probably something Judaism borrowed from some other group that borrowed it from Zoroastrianism's six periods of creation.

But the major borrowing of Judaism from Zoroastrianism is thought to have happened after the Babylonian captivity.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=147&letter=Z

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=147&letter=Z

Most scholars, Jewish as well as non-Jewish, are of the opinion that Judaism was strongly influenced by Zoroastrianism in views relating to angelology and demonology, and probably also in the doctrine of the resurrection, as well as in eschatological ideas in general, and also that the monotheistic conception of Yhwh may have been quickened and strengthened by being opposed to the dualism or quasi-monotheism of the Persians.

J There is a difference between real monotheism and monopaganism, or at least how these two belief systems operate. If you look closely, only of thse systems have no head bashing dieties battling for supremecy.

Many scholars say Judaism did not fully abandon polytheism until after Babylonian captivity when they were directly influenced by Zoroastrianism's monotheism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_Unearthed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_Unearthed The Book of Kings, as it stands today, seems to suggest that the religion of Israel and Judah was primarily monotheistic, with one or two wayward kings (such as the Omrides) who tried to introduce Canaanite polytheism, the people occasionally joining in this 'apostasy' from monotheism, but a close reading and the archaeological record reveals that the opposite was true.[33] Iron Age remains show that in the time of the setting of the Book of Kings, sacrifices continued to be offered at hilltop shrines (which the bible terms "high places"), incense and libations were being offered throughout the land, and clay figurines of deities were still being used in homes everywhere in the land as household gods;[33] one inscription from the Shephelah, dating from the period, even refers to "YHWH and his Asherah".[34]

http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/mine/jud_zor.htm

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Monotheistic

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Monotheistic Monotheistic - Definition ...Zoroastrianism is considered by some to be the earliest monotheistic view to have evolved among mankind, though it is not fully so, as the chief god Ahura Mazda is not the sole creator. It has been theorized that Judaism was influenced by Zoroastrianism

JWhen Islam emerged, they first prayed facing Jerusalem, as an inducement to Jews. When this was rejected, Mohammed ordered an about face turn to Mecca. That is the facts of it. This also says where Muslims today got their ritual of praying facing a sacred place. It is the nature of the beast of religions, to deny anything unfavourable.

The other overiding fact is the pre-Islamic Arabs at no time followed the Abrahamic belief, nor were they even around at the time of Abraham. As an identifable group, the Arabs emerged in Arabia after 500 BCE. Today, we see Moses and Abraham presented as Muslims throughout the Islamic world - without even a mention of the true Hebrew source of these figureheads. One cannot boast of being Godly and also harbour terrible historical falsehoods. Nor can one horde Hebron, the birthplace of Judaism, and claim DOGS & JEWS FORBIDDEN: there is no sch thing as sacred islamic soil based on robbery and denial. You leave out the best bits.

But I asked for dates. You don't know the dates?

 

[Billy T]

.... http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=147&letter=Z...

Thanks for the link. I knew little of Zorastrianism, but did know they were much older than Judaism.
IamJoseph's glaringly false statement of the reverse bring into question all his "facts."

I found them more advanced in the thinking and respect for the enviroment than most modern religions in this:

"... In disposing of the dead, it is unlawful to burn or bury the body or to throw it into water, as any of these modes of disposal would defile one of the sacred elements; the dead must therefore be exposed in high places to be devoured by birds and dogs, a custom which is still observed by the Parsees and Gabars in their "Towers of Silence." ..." *

Once when swimming in the ocean my body was suddenly being hit many times each second by small fish in a school passing by me. I immediately became fearful that they were perhaps being chased by one or more sharks. After a few more seconds I realized there was nothing I could do and thought that would not be a bad way to die.** In fact soon thought that would be a useful way to die - I had eaten a lot of ocean fish - perhaps now it was their turn.

* This will never catch on / be accepted in the capitalistic world: – There is no profit for the crematorium owner, the Indian sellers of fire wood, the chemical companies making embalming fluid to pollute the ground water, casket makers, Churches etc. holding memorial services.

I believe the ancient Greeks and several other cultures did this with badly deformed babies also. I am too much a product of my culture to not be shocked, but when rationally considered, that does seem best compared to messing up the lives of brothers and sisters (parents too) for decades.

** It would certainly be over quick. Also I have noticed that when a pride of lioness brings down a herd animal it struggles at most a few seconds then falls over and is calm. I strongly suspect that intense pain make you lose consciousness or "black out."

 

[nirakar]

Thanks for the link. I knew little of Zorastrianism, but did know they were much older than Judaism.
IamJoseph's glaringly false statement of the reverse bring into question all his "facts."

IamJoseph is wrong most of the time and often makes up incorrect "facts" himself rather than just repeating from bad sources but being wrong about the age of Zoroastrianism is a smaller mistake than usual because half of the internet has the age of Zoroastrianism wrong. He says Judaism is older than Zoroastrianism. If Judaism began in 1800 BCE and Zoroastrianism began at 575 BCE then he would be right this time. In the statement that Judaism is older than Zoroastrianism IamJoseph is not on an rotten intellectual limb of his own creation by himself, he has plenty of company and he did not create that belief.

Based on others scholarship I guess pre-Judaism started about 900 BC and believe Moses and Abraham are fictitious people. I believe that in the time of King Josiah 630ish BCE Judaism resembling modern Judaism but that it came to be much more like modern Judaism around 340 AD when the new Jewish nation dominated by Jews who returned from Babylon influenced by Zoroastrianism was firmly established. The next step forward being 140–37 BC when the Jewish Hasmonean Kingdom finally ruled over areas that King David only ruled in fiction. IamJoseph and any fundamentalist Jews, Christians and Muslims will prefer the traditional more glorious version of Jewish history that says Judaism began with Abraham at about 1800 BCE.

Many Western Web Sites claim that that Modern Parsi tradition places Zoroaster's birth at around or before 600 BCE but the few actual Parsi websites I came across say that their tradition places Zoroaster's birth at before 6,000 BCE.

An actual Parsi website http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com/ and http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com/zor33.html Says

These are the tenets of the Mazdayasni Zarathushtri religion, as accepted and preached by all the Dasturjees and religious teachers and common Zarathushtris in India. May our faith increase day by day, in these glorious tenets, that our ancestors have believed in for thousands of years..........

..........Zarathushtra was the first prophet to preach a monotheistic religion, and He was born in Iran about 8000 years BC. He revealed that there was only one God, Ahura Mazda and that life in the physical world was a battle between good and evil. As per man's actions, he would either cross the "Chinvato Peretu" or the sword bridge after death, and reach Heaven, or fall from it and go to the abode of the evil one. In the final days there would be a battle between good and evil, evil would be vanquished and the world would be purified by a bath of molten metal. Mazda would then judge the world, resurrecting the dead and His Kingdom would be established on earth.

This link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster says

Zarathushtra (Avestan: Zaraθuštra IPA: [ˈzaːˌraˈθuːʃˌtrʌ], b. 18th↔10th century BCE[1]), was an ancient Iranian prophet and philosopher, and the founder of the Zoroastrian religion. The form Zoroaster ([ˌzoroˈæsˌtɘr]) is of a Greek and Latin derivation from the Avestan (cf. name). "Zarathushtra" is a modern rendering of the Avestan pronunciation.[2] In the Middle Persian and Modern Persian language (8th century–present) he is called Zartosht (Persian: زرتشت [ˈzɑːrˌtoʃt]).

It is generally thought that Zoroaster lived about the 10th or 11th century BCE, though some scholars believe that he lived sometime between 1750 and 1500 BC or between 1400 and 1200 BC. The traditional Parsi people of Pakistan and India place the Prophet as older than 600 BC.[3] The hymns attributed to him—the Gathas—are at the liturgical core of Zoroastrianism.

The 1800 BC to 100 BC is what modern scholars are saying is probabable but they say Zoroaster may have been before that. But this link also made a mistake.

The Parsi claim is that Zoroaster lived before 6,000 BCE not before 600 BCE. The Parsi's claim is probably influenced by trying to be older than Hinduism's claims of oldness.

Clearly a lot of people in the West prior to 1950 were using the "before 600 BCE" date but I don't know what plagerized old historian was the source of this date.

I personally think history prior to 1950 on all topics was very shaky and filled with bad information.

This link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism says:

However, it is debated to exactly when he lived, as estimates range from 1700 BCE[25] to 500 BCE.[26] The precise date of the founding of Zoroastrianism is uncertain. An approximate date of 1500–1200 BCE has been established through archaeological evidence and linguistic comparisons with the Hindu text, the Rig Veda.

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/zarathushtra/index.htm

This link http://www.culturopedia.com/religions/zoroastrianism.html contradicts itself by saying:

Parsism or Zoroastrianism is about 2600 years old and finds its origin in Persia. The religion was founded by Spenta Zarathustra or Zoroaster, who is considered as the Prophet of the Parsis. Zoroastrian practice is based on the responsibility of every man and woman to choose between good and evil, and to respect God's creations. Prophet Zarathustra, who lived in Iran in 6000 BC, expounded a dualistic philosophy, based on the opposing powers of the good and the evil. Zarathustra preached the oneness of god and believed that Ahura Mazda was the one and only god, who is formless and has six great aspects called the Amesha-Spentas.

This link http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/zarathushtra/index.htm says :

There are no written records from Zarathushtra's time. The earliest surviving written references to Zarathushtra are those of Greek writers from about 2,500 years ago (see below). They in turn quote earlier sources now lost to us. Zarathushtra in the estimation of the Greeks, lived some 6,000 years before their time, or 8,200 to 8,500 years ago.


........... The Age in which Zarathushtra Lived

There is no consensus on the age in which Zarathushtra lived. There are a range of dates put forward ranging from 8,500 to 3,700 years ago.

A great body of relevant ancient Iranian records have either been viciously destroyed by Alexander, the Arabs and Mongols, or lost. The majority of accounts of the time in which Zarathushtra lived that have survived are Greek writings from the fourth century BCE to the first century ACE.

Pliny the Elder (23-79 CE) quotes Eudoxus of Cnidus (ca. 365 BCE) and Aristotle (ca. 350 BCE) as placing Zoroaster 6000 years before the death of Plato (347 BCE) or 6365 BCE. Pliny also quotes Hermippus (ca. 250 BCE) as placing Zoroaster 5000 years before the Trojan war (ca. 1200 BCE) or around 6200 BCE.

Diogenes Laertius (230 CE) states that according to Xanthus of Lydia (ca. 450 BCE), Zoroaster lived 6000 years before the Persian king Xerxes invaded Greece (ca. 480 BCE) or about 6480 BCE. Diogenes also states that according to Hermodorus (ca. 400 BCE), a follower of Plato, Zoroaster lived 5000 years before the Trojan war (ca. 1200 BCE). Plutarch (ca. 46-120 CE) also places Zoroaster 5000 years before the Trojan war.

While he is not a classical Greek author, Lactantius (ca. 240-320 CE), a Latin-speaking native of North Africa, states that ancient King Vishtasp (Hystaspes) reigned long before the founding of Rome (ca. 750 BCE?). Zoroaster lived during King Vishtasp's reign.

Some authors think the dates placing Zarathushtra as having lived 8,200 to 8,500 years ago are too fantastic to be true and place Zarathushtra about four thousand years from the present. Yet other dates (now known to be in error) place him later in time.

Behruz (also spelt Behrooz) Dabih (1889-1971 CE), a Persian satirist, is credited with proposing the vernal equinox of 1737 BCE, the beginning of the period of Aries, as the date when Zarathushtra proclaimed the religion. Therefore, the Gregorian year 2010 CE would be 3747 AZ.

The late Mary Boyce (1920-2006), Professor of Iranian Studies at the University of London, stated in her book Zoroastrians, Their Religious Beliefs and Practices (page 18) that "to hazard a reasoned conjecture" was "that Zoroaster lived sometime between 1700 and 1500 B.C.", the lower date apparently being made to appease other Western 'scholars' who advocated even later dates.

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This link http://www.answers.com/topic/zoroaster says

* Born: 628 B.C.
* Birthplace: Iran
* Died: 551 B.C.
* Best Known As: The founder of Zoroastrianism

Now where the hell do the above link and the first Jewish Encylopedia link get two different 500 something BCE death dates from? They are wrong but they probably have sources.

This link http://ebionite.org/zoro.htm says "Isaiah 40-48 offers striking parallels with the Gatha 44:3-5, as has been shown by Morton Smith. "

This site http://mb-soft.com/believe/txo/zoroastr.htm says

The date of Zoroaster's birth has been given variously as 6000 BC, 1400 BC, and 1000 BC, but Herzfeld accepts the traditional date, approximately, as now confirmed (Herzfeld, (570 - 500 BC); Jackson, 660 - 583 BC). .......Zoroastrianism is a religion that developed in Iran from about the sixth century B.C., generally ascribed to Zoroaster (Zarathustra), who was born in Iran "258 years before Alexander." The date of Zoroaster's birth has been given variously as 6000 B.C., 1400 B.C., and 1000 B.C., but Herzfeld accepts the traditional date, approximately, as now confirmed (Herzfeld, 570-500 B.C.; Jackson, 660-583 B.C.).

Ernst Emil Herzfeld (July 23, 1879–January 20, 1948) was a German archaeologist and Iranologist. He is outdated.

 

[PsychoTropicPuppy]

So is it cancelled or what now? Sorry haven't kept up with this topic.
I hear some Afghanis went on a murderous tour when they heard about the quran burning manifest? Looks like the mere suggestion of burning a simple book can really kill people

 

[GeoffP]

Heard some story about Iran buring Bibles in response. Possible but could be propaganda as easily. Some guy in Illinois got arrested for burning a Quran though.

 

[PsychoTropicPuppy]

Did he get arrested for burning a Quran or for putting fire to something in a location where making fire in the open is prohibited?

 

[GeoffP]

Oh, I agree: it could gave been any ordinance that he was considered to have violated. It's just the $10,000 reward for information leading to his arrest that made me say hmm. They don't usually post that kind of cash for your standard errant camper.

 

[PsychoTropicPuppy]

$10,000 for telling on someone who burned/is going to burn a Koran?
Wow...anyone here burned a Koran recently? I want to earn some cash to buy myself some :m:

 

[GeoffP]

$10,000 for telling on someone who burned/is going to burn a Koran?
Wow...anyone here burned a Koran recently? I want to earn some cash to buy myself some :m:

I'd consider burning it myself and calling the cops on me to earn some quick cash: yet, I just contented myself with calling the station and asking them what law I would be breaking and why the reward was so high. They hung up.

 

[PsychoTropicPuppy]

I'd consider burning it myself and calling the cops on me to earn some quick cash: yet, I just contented myself with calling the station and asking them what law I would be breaking and why the reward was so high. They hung up.

Punishment: All the newspapers publishing page long articles about you!

 

[GeoffP]

All publicity is good publicity.