well i like all people regardless of their backgrounds because i look at the individual. That said, there are cultures that buckle down and put their nose to the grindstone. Take tour Asian (chinese, Korean etc.) you tend to see those kids with there noses in the books and they arent too concerend with having fun.
christians and jews, do they believe in each others' prophets?
- Thread starter scifes
- Start date
well i like all people regardless of their backgrounds because i look at the individual. That said, there are cultures that buckle down and put their nose to the grindstone. Take tour Asian (chinese, Korean etc.) you tend to see those kids with there noses in the books and they arent too concerend with having fun.
SAM is right.
Out of all the things Jesus may have done, I dont believe he fulfiled any part of the prophecy.
The major thing was uniting and bringing all the Jews back into Israel. At that time most Jews were already in Israel and were united.
The second is he would raise the dead on a sacred burial site I believe is called mound of olives (havent been in A LONG TIME), and even today it is an honor to be buried there.
And even then, after jesus came along his followers pretty much screwed Israel and the Jews over several times.
And when you think about it, it would be more appropriate for the Mossiah to come along now because the Jewish population is spread across the world.
*************
M*W: Perhaps they didn't see him as the messiah they expected. Perhaps Jesus didn't exist at all.
Jesus was made into a legend. Myth is full of legends.
A current day legend is SuperMan.
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
There is certainly no consensus of scholars on that question. I gather the existence of Mohammed is not certain either, although not nearly as doubtful as Jesus.
I believe there is enough proof that Both Jesus and Muhammad existed and lived a long life too . If we do not believe this piece of history then why do we bother with the rest of history ?!!!.
To me the existence is not as important as what they would be if the existed which is human beings just like us.
And just like everybody else that came along claiming to be the messiah or the like. They would have been delusional and/or fraudulent. Not children of god.
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
I would dance in the streets if there were a holiday to renounce ALL religions.
Renouncing Judaism was the goal of Christianity and Christmas is the celebration of the (alleged) birth (on the wrong date) of the (alleged) man who (allegedly) founded Christianity. That's hardly a stretch.
Well if you're going to get into it, ALL religions are nothing but a collection of archetypes, instinctive images that turn up in all cultures in all eras. They were accidentally programmed into our DNA by a mutation that happened to be carried by Mitochondrial Eve or Y-Chromosome Adam, so now we've all got it. Or maybe not all of us. My family seems to lack it, perhaps after a couple of hundred thousand years a new mutation has occurred.
Hellenism at least has the original pantheon of multiple gods that shows up in every traditional religion. That is a much richer and more useful model of the human spirit than the pathetic Abrahamist one-dimensional model in which everything falls somewhere on a scale between "good" and "evil" and almost all the important figures have penises.
Lots of reasons, a lot of it is because the misunderstanding of the Old Testament. Also, they expected the savior of the universe to come in a little more splendor and glory, they expected the Messiah to conquer the Romans. He didn't, at least, not in the way they expected.
Followers of Jesus believe Him. Therefore no follower of Jesus could have killed any Jews because even if they looked upon the Jews as their enamies they would Love them and never seek to do them harm.
What the Jews have seen is not followers of Jesus seeking their suffering but followers of a false religion seeking to discourage Jews from coming to the realisation that Jesus is the Messiah.
It is very hard for a Jew to see Jesus as He is because of the many people who have done them harm in the name of Jesus. In the end that is satans wish too. That the Jews will never seek to know Jesus. So those who teach hatered for the Jews and encourage others to harm the Jews are allied to the one who seeks to keep the Word of God from them.
Agreed.
Jesus did not come to rescue man from the “curse of the Torah.” but to fulfil the Torah.
Yes. But december the 25th was never the birth date of Jesus.
Yeah. The celebration of christmas on the 25th of december is pagan. Nothing new to me there. But this is a creation of that same false religion whom you believe is Christian but is not.
Well if this is true then he was one of those who fell to the deception of constantine. Whose first act was to instruct His troops to mark their shields with a sign of the Christians and to fight and kill for him under that sign.
This was in direct rebellion against Jesus call to love ones enemy. The whole genesis of the catholic/orthodox church was built on this initial act of rebellion against the Word of Jesus.
Also they did not produce the "New Testament" all those rightings existed way before the days of constantine and their harlotry with him.
I understand. But irrespective of all the violence and added paganism and all the hatred. You still must look upon the message of Jesus as He gave it and decide do you accept Him or reject Him.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
You seem to think that christians spend all their days thinking about Jews and the sole focus of their religion is a statement of anti-jewishness.
You must be so Jewish centric to think that everyone else's main focus in life is to be Anti-jewish.. Let me tell you that even when i was part of that religion (i used to be a catholic) i never thought much about the Jews at all and at christmas Jews where the last thing on my mind.
The World does not revolve around the Jews or Judaism. The centrepiece of all religions of the world is not their reaction to Judaism.
The day is about the birth of Jesus. Once again not anything to do with the destruction of the Jews. Never forget that is was a pagan Roman army that destroyed the Temple and exiled the Jews from isreal. There where no Christians in that legion.
False comparison. If the Jews where forced into accepting the values of catholicism / orthodoxy then there would be no Jews in existence today.
And i add.
I do not celebrate christmas. And while i do face some scorn for it. No attempt has ever been made by others to force me to celebrate christmas.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
As for the topic of "intelligance"
Peoples intelligence is not set in concrete at birth. Depending on the environment one grows up in ones inelegance can be increased or decreased within a range.
Cultures can change very rapidly in response to persecution or a sudden drop in social status. I live in Australia and it is a nation that has experienced a lot of immigration over the last 100 years. When people come to Australia they nearly always come suffering a drop in social status and wealth. The strong motivation in all immigrants is to regain their social status and material wealth. Therefore very often immigrant parents will adopt a changed culture with more emphasis on achieving a rise in social status and material wealth through scholastic achievement. So their children are motivated to study and exercise their mental capacities from an early age. Therefore increasing the IQ they end up having because their minds are exercised more vigorously then would have happened had the family remained in their nation of origin.
Persecution also can have the effect of increasing a peoples desire to obtain high achievement in study so as to allow them to quickly recover from the periodical bouts of persecution they experience. Often these episodes of persecution end in the loss of social status and material wealth. Therefore such a culture does well to place learning as a very high priority to help them overcome past episodes of persecution and to prepare for the next episode. If one builds up wealth in excess of ones needs at the present time then one can run with this movable wealth when the next episode of persecution happens.
The Jews have in times past in Europe been excluded from land ownership by law. As land has been a foundational basis of wealth for most peoples in history being excluded from land ownership forced them to become even more reliant on perusing professions and business as roads to material security. Both the professions and business require good education and sharp thinking to succeed.
It is not surprising that historically the Jewish people have succeeded in these areas. They had no choice but to succeed in these areas. The only alternative is to starve and die.
In Australia we see as immigrant communities become established and have recovered their social status and wealth in Australia their Children start to become more average in their scholastic abilities because the sense of urgency that their immigrant grand parents installed into their parents has been dissipated by the sense of security that material gain and social status brings to them.
For the Jewish however this sense of security is often not achieved, They may say to themselves, Yes i have wealth, Yes i have reached the top of my carrier field or Yes i am in the top 10% of the rich of this land. But in the back of their heads they are always waiting for the next time when they will be attacked and see all they have built stolen or smashed and burned to the ground. Therefore the Jewish community is compelled to remain in a permanent state of persecution induced scholastic achievement, Even when they are doing well and when most other communities relax and enjoy the fruits of their achievements the Jews will continue to be driven to higher achievement.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Peoples intelligence is not set in concrete at birth. Depending on the environment one grows up in ones inelegance can be increased or decreased within a range.
Cultures can change very rapidly in response to persecution or a sudden drop in social status. I live in Australia and it is a nation that has experienced a lot of immigration over the last 100 years. When people come to Australia they nearly always come suffering a drop in social status and wealth. The strong motivation in all immigrants is to regain their social status and material wealth. Therefore very often immigrant parents will adopt a changed culture with more emphasis on achieving a rise in social status and material wealth through scholastic achievement. So their children are motivated to study and exercise their mental capacities from an early age. Therefore increasing the IQ they end up having because their minds are exercised more vigorously then would have happened had the family remained in their nation of origin.
Persecution also can have the effect of increasing a peoples desire to obtain high achievement in study so as to allow them to quickly recover from the periodical bouts of persecution they experience. Often these episodes of persecution end in the loss of social status and material wealth. Therefore such a culture does well to place learning as a very high priority to help them overcome past episodes of persecution and to prepare for the next episode. If one builds up wealth in excess of ones needs at the present time then one can run with this movable wealth when the next episode of persecution happens.
The Jews have in times past in Europe been excluded from land ownership by law. As land has been a foundational basis of wealth for most peoples in history being excluded from land ownership forced them to become even more reliant on perusing professions and business as roads to material security. Both the professions and business require good education and sharp thinking to succeed.
It is not surprising that historically the Jewish people have succeeded in these areas. They had no choice but to succeed in these areas. The only alternative is to starve and die.
In Australia we see as immigrant communities become established and have recovered their social status and wealth in Australia their Children start to become more average in their scholastic abilities because the sense of urgency that their immigrant grand parents installed into their parents has been dissipated by the sense of security that material gain and social status brings to them.
For the Jewish however this sense of security is often not achieved, They may say to themselves, Yes i have wealth, Yes i have reached the top of my carrier field or Yes i am in the top 10% of the rich of this land. But in the back of their heads they are always waiting for the next time when they will be attacked and see all they have built stolen or smashed and burned to the ground. Therefore the Jewish community is compelled to remain in a permanent state of persecution induced scholastic achievement, Even when they are doing well and when most other communities relax and enjoy the fruits of their achievements the Jews will continue to be driven to higher achievement.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
In addition to all of the other responses to this question which was asked in various forms, there is also another key issue which (perhaps only) I raised earlier in this discussion: It is not at all clear that Jesus was a real historical figure.scifes said:
The account of Jesus's life, from the virgin birth to the loaves and fishes and all the way through to the resurrection, is a series of miracles. If ever there was an extraordinary assertion, the hypothesis that this person actually lived and this was the true story of his life is certainly one of the most extraordinary of all. By the Rule of Laplace (or Sagan's Law), an extraordinary assertion must be supported by extraordinary evidence before anyone is obliged to treat it with respect.
Of course there were no scientists in the modern sense of the word in those days and Laplace had not been born yet, but the Jews are a skeptical, quarrelsome, argumentative people (I'm not trash-talking them but merely quoting any dozen of the ones I know) who do not believe things they are told without evidence. They would have applied the Rule of Laplace to the story of Jesus. When the evidence was presented, rabbis would have argued over it for years and their discourse would be faithfully recorded in the Talmud.
The fact that someone as important as Jesus is not mentioned in the contemporary Hebrew-language Judaic literature is more than a little puzzling. The first citation is in Greek-language literature written many years after his death.
What are we to make of this? The only conclusion I can draw is that the Jews simply do not believe the story of Jesus. Either he was a totally fictional character or he was a mere mortal who had been blown out of proportion by hearsay. In either case, this was not the Messiah.
Therefore, to the precise question, "Why didn't the Jews follow Jesus when he came along," the precise answer may very well be, "Because Jesus did not actually come along," or alternately, "Jesus lacked the credentials required for the Jews to follow him."
To Adstar:
You've posted a bunch of nonsense without reading the thread.
1. I answered the OP
2. Someone asked about Xmas.
3. I responded to that question.
4. Someone else mentions that the difference is "Jews are disobedient"
I could address your comment point by point, but it would be without any success since your conceptual picture of the Torah is completely wrong. For example, you said, "Fulfills the Torah"...well...that doesn't make any sense. 'Sefer Torah' the name for the Torah - means, "Book that gives Law". There's nothing to fulfill, it's the law...period.
There are not many direct prophecies printed in the 5 books which constitute it, only one comes to mind - that's in Moshe's final addressing of the people when he says there will be "Another great prophet" which was Jeremiah, you can tell because its Hebrew is written like that of the Torah as opposed to the other prophets. The majority of the book constitutes "If you do this, I will do this" - "If you don't do this, I will do this" - "Do this, because I said so.". There are no prophecies - and therefore, nothing to be fulfilled.
What you meant to say was
It fulfilled the Tanakh - which was the prophets, judges, and other writings. Well...that's not true either - and that's why Jews reject Christianity, not because Christians were mean to them for 1600 years. What the Christians propose doesn't even make sense. It fulfilled almost none of the prophecies, it didn't change anything... Do you realize that Jews in the first temple period had higher life expectancy and higher quality of life than European Christians in the early Renaissance? How could a prophecy which promises that people will physically live forever decrease life expectancy when it came true? Any prophet who ever went against what the original Torah said was ignored - there's evidence and precedent for this, look in Jeremiah when the other prophets kept saying "No, everything is okay" while Jeremiah said "No...you're all screwed, get ready to be imprisoned." The words spoken by the supposed were spoken hundreds and thousands of years earlier, why is his reiteration of them prophetical - but their original says...wrong? Come on AdStar, if you're going to make an argument, learn what any of the things you're talking about are.
It actually reminds me of Christians in Israel...it's hilarious. Almost all Jews in Jerusalem despite how secular - know the Torah inside and out. These Christians go to Jerusalem and preach Christianity to them...and the Jews most secular people...hobos...'rebels'...all can cite exact verses which they can't respond to. The majority of them hardly even understand their own theology much less the theology that it 'surplanted'. The reason people can accept Christianity as the continuation of Judaism, is because they know nothing about Judaism, and often, Christianity for that matter.
You've posted a bunch of nonsense without reading the thread.
1. I answered the OP
2. Someone asked about Xmas.
3. I responded to that question.
4. Someone else mentions that the difference is "Jews are disobedient"
I could address your comment point by point, but it would be without any success since your conceptual picture of the Torah is completely wrong. For example, you said, "Fulfills the Torah"...well...that doesn't make any sense. 'Sefer Torah' the name for the Torah - means, "Book that gives Law". There's nothing to fulfill, it's the law...period.
There are not many direct prophecies printed in the 5 books which constitute it, only one comes to mind - that's in Moshe's final addressing of the people when he says there will be "Another great prophet" which was Jeremiah, you can tell because its Hebrew is written like that of the Torah as opposed to the other prophets. The majority of the book constitutes "If you do this, I will do this" - "If you don't do this, I will do this" - "Do this, because I said so.". There are no prophecies - and therefore, nothing to be fulfilled.
What you meant to say was
It fulfilled the Tanakh - which was the prophets, judges, and other writings. Well...that's not true either - and that's why Jews reject Christianity, not because Christians were mean to them for 1600 years. What the Christians propose doesn't even make sense. It fulfilled almost none of the prophecies, it didn't change anything... Do you realize that Jews in the first temple period had higher life expectancy and higher quality of life than European Christians in the early Renaissance? How could a prophecy which promises that people will physically live forever decrease life expectancy when it came true? Any prophet who ever went against what the original Torah said was ignored - there's evidence and precedent for this, look in Jeremiah when the other prophets kept saying "No, everything is okay" while Jeremiah said "No...you're all screwed, get ready to be imprisoned." The words spoken by the supposed were spoken hundreds and thousands of years earlier, why is his reiteration of them prophetical - but their original says...wrong? Come on AdStar, if you're going to make an argument, learn what any of the things you're talking about are.
It actually reminds me of Christians in Israel...it's hilarious. Almost all Jews in Jerusalem despite how secular - know the Torah inside and out. These Christians go to Jerusalem and preach Christianity to them...and the Jews most secular people...hobos...'rebels'...all can cite exact verses which they can't respond to. The majority of them hardly even understand their own theology much less the theology that it 'surplanted'. The reason people can accept Christianity as the continuation of Judaism, is because they know nothing about Judaism, and often, Christianity for that matter.
evangelicals don't know shit about their own religion why would they know anything about someone elses.