Christians and Christmas

[Bells]

Most people find the whole concept of the Trinity to be confusing. As a child I voiced my confusion much to the constant gritted teeth of the nun in religious studies, and in the end it was my mother who explained it to me in a manner that I understood. She took an orange and cut it into three pieces. And she told me that all the pieces together make up a whole orange, but apart they make up three different aspects of the whole. Even though I'm more agnostic then the devout Christian that my parents may have wished me to be as a child, if I were to ever have a child I'd want my child to understand all the faiths that exist out there, and I'd probably use the orange trick that my mother used on me to help my child understand the notion of the Holy Trinity.

 

[davewhite04]

Originally posted by Vienna
Thanks Bells, you are a star

I think what you have said is what I wanted to hear. I know the Trinity is not an easy concept for anyone to grasp (child or adult) but it is much easier to grasp at a young age when there are less conflicting ideas flying around.
My son DID have the true idea of the Trinity and he knew it well, but now he's totally confused with the recent teachings that Joseph is the father of Jesus. He said to me "But I thought God was???". I saw the confusion in his eyes and I went to pieces. Is it worth it I wonder?

What I'm going to do next I don't know, at the moment my own belief is up in the air.

Hiya Vienna,

Saying Joseph is the father of Jesus is not necessarily incorrect. It is written in scripture that Jesus came from the lineage of David, who was related to Joseph not Mary, so it seems it was accepted that Joseph was Jesus' dad in the flesh realm.

Dave

 

[Bells]

Vienna

I don't think I've lost my faith. Personally I feel that there is something that is bigger than myself out there but I just don't personally understand it. I don't know what it is and while I am aware it is not Bill Gates, I don't know what it all actually is or what it means. I guess in a way that is but one journey in life, to try and find out what it all is. I was never one to believe the stories of Adam and Eve and the rest as they never made sense on a scientific basis. For example, there is proof of evolution and that for me makes sense as it is something tangible and proven. I don't expect to see scientific proof of God, but I personally believe that something is out there and I just don't know what it is yet. The belief that there is a greater being out there and not knowing what it is is what makes me agnostic. I am not one to follow blindly what I am told. I was born and raised in a Catholic household and throughout my life I always disagreed with much of the Catholic doctrines, hence why I do not follow those doctrines.

What I do believe is that if there is something or someone who will judge me when my life is over, then so be it. Therefore I chose to live my life in a manner that respects peoples religious beliefs and to try and do the right thing by myself and those around me. I don't really see it as a loss of faith, just a journey through my life and hope that whatever comes after, if it comes after, is something that will answer my questions. I don't know who is correct, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Budhists, Hindus, etc... so therefore I prefer to live my life in a manner that does not discriminate against others for their beliefs and to be respectful of others. I don't think my personal beliefs are above others and I don't believe that one religion is better than another. Many believe in a higher deity and it is not up to me or anyone else to tell them that they are correct or wrong, or that another religion or God is the correct one to believe in. No one can know for sure who is right. Therefore, I have always followed the notion that one should not discriminate against others just because their religious beliefs are different to one's own, hence why I tend to bite when I see people lording it over others that their belief is greater than others or when people put down other religious beliefs just because it is different to one's own.

In the meantime, I prefer to just sit back and learn from those around me and learn of their beliefs, not to try and prop up or justify my own beliefs, but so that I can understand where they come from, and the only way to do that is to respect their belief in their religion or their non-belief.

 

[davewhite04]

Originally posted by Vienna

I understood that this lineage was linked with Mary because of her marraige to Joseph, and not through Joseph himself.
As Joseph is not the father of Jesus, the lineage would not exist without Mary.

No. It was Joseph who was the son of David (through generations).

If you're unsure about these things the best source is the bible, Matthew explains this though it is pretty tricky to fathom

If you stick to scriptures instead of some of the non-sense on this board you can't go wrong.

Best wishes

Dave

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by Bells
Most people find the whole concept of the Trinity to be confusing. As a child I voiced my confusion much to the constant gritted teeth of the nun in religious studies, and in the end it was my mother who explained it to me in a manner that I understood. She took an orange and cut it into three pieces. And she told me that all the pieces together make up a whole orange, but apart they make up three different aspects of the whole. Even though I'm more agnostic then the devout Christian that my parents may have wished me to be as a child, if I were to ever have a child I'd want my child to understand all the faiths that exist out there, and I'd probably use the orange trick that my mother used on me to help my child understand the notion of the Holy Trinity.

I hope you don't end up with a smart ass child that would tell you, but mom, why only three? We can cut up the orange to thousands of pieces, and in that case which piece would christ be?.

 

[Cris]

Dave,

If you stick to scriptures instead of some of the non-sense on this board you can't go wrong.

LOL. You are joking right? It is scripture that is so ambiguous, conflicting and confusing that the result is thousands of different Christian sects and cults all claiming truth from scripture yet all interpret the texts differently.

So if Joseph isn’t the father of the alleged Jesus then who is the father? Surely it has been agreed by now that the idea of a ‘virgin’ birth was simply a mistranslation of ‘young-woman’.

Then we have the trinity farce. A hilarious and complex concoction to explain away the major mistake of the early Christians who forgot that there can be only ONE god, as is clearly stated in the OT; and then they created Jesus who is also a God. OOPS.

And how was the trinity discovered – through observation? No of course not but through a committee of mystics who had to create another fantasy to cover up the earlier mistake.

Can any rational person ever really take this comedy religion called Christianity seriously? Surely not!

 

[davewhite04]

Originally posted by Cris

LOL. You are joking right?

No.

It is scripture that is so ambiguous, conflicting and confusing that the result is thousands of different Christian sects and cults all claiming truth from scripture yet all interpret the texts differently.

My advice, don't join any of these sects or cults.

So if Joseph isn’t the father of the alleged Jesus then who is the father? Surely it has been agreed by now that the idea of a ‘virgin’ birth was simply a mistranslation of ‘young-woman’.

God is his father, as it is written. When Joseph agreed to complete the marriage with Mary he in essence "Adopted" Jesus.

Then we have the trinity farce. A hilarious and complex concoction to explain away the major mistake of the early Christians who forgot that there can be only ONE god, as is clearly stated in the OT; and then they created Jesus who is also a God. OOPS.

I never mentioned the trinity, it is something that I'm studying now.

And how was the trinity discovered – through observation? No of course not but through a committee of mystics who had to create another fantasy to cover up the earlier mistake.

As above.

Can any rational person ever really take this comedy religion called Christianity seriously?

Yes.


Dave

 

[Cris]

Dave,

My advice, don't join any of these sects or cults.

Are you not a Christian then? Do you not follow a particular interpretation of the bible or are you guilty of creating your own perspective, i.e. yet another cult?

God is his father, as it is written.

It is also written that Joseph is his father. Which one provided the sperm? And how would you know?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/virgin_b2.htm

When Joseph agreed to complete the marriage with Mary he in essence "Adopted" Jesus.

Where in scripture does it say this? This looks like your creative interpretation which is what most Christians seem to do when trying to interpret biblical ambiguity.

I never mentioned the trinity, it is something that I'm studying now.

It was referenced earlier in the thread.

Yes.

Why would any rational person take Christianity seriously? We have no factual information concerning the alleged birth of Jesus and there is considerable doubt he ever existed. And there is no information as to whether Joseph ever had sex or not with Mary. We neither know the year of birth or the time of year or even the place of birth -

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/birthplace.html

And the idea of a ‘virgin’ birth in the bible is just another example of creative mythmaking –

http://www.geocities.com/logic_faith/prophecies_files/jesus_virgin_birth_mary.htm

So, really why ever take Christianity seriously? It has no factual basis and examined objectivity it is obviously just a set of imaginative fantasies. Or do you claim to have some facts?

 

[davewhite04]

Originally posted by Cris

Are you a Christian then?

Yes.

Do you not follow a particular interpretation of the bible or are you guilty of creating your own perspective, i.e. yet another cult?

I study the bible from time to time, I use commentries and such to clarify certain aspects of the text. I am Church of England by birth.

You don't need to belong to a cult or indeed create one to be a Christian.

It is also written that Joseph is his father. Which one provided the sperm? And how would you know?

Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost. You'd have to ask God if sperm was involved or not.

Just out of interest, where is it written that Joseph is the Father?

I know because I believe what is written is true, that's the key you see?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/virgin_b2.htm

Where in scripture does it say this? This looks like your creative interpretation which is what most Christians seem to do when trying to interpret biblical ambiguity.

If you're really interested, read Matthews early writings regarding the Angel that visited Joseph etc. Joseph became Jesus' parent once he married Mary.

Why would any rational person take Christianity seriously? .... Or do you claim to have some facts?

Because it makes sense. I don't think there will be any more facts regarding Christianity in my lifetime, a few things might pop up, nothing substantial though. The only thing to decide is whether you believe what's written in the bible is fact or fiction? That's the question.

Dave

 

[Cris]

Dave,

I am Church of England by birth.

Technically you were atheist at birth, i.e. lacks belief in a god, since you were unable to hold any belief until you grew somewhat.

You don't need to belong to a cult or indeed create one to be a Christian.

But the C of E is such a cult/sect that states what it means to be Christian. Either you take your ideas from an existing sect/cult or you create your own. You have no choice since there is no absolute and independent definition of what it means to be Christian. You might like to claim that the Bible is the absolute guide but then which version and translation will you choose. It is because of so many translations that there exist so many sects/cults.

Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost.

You'd have to ask God if sperm was involved or not.

Whose DNA was used then? And asking me to ask a mythological character isn’t very helpful.

Just out of interest, where is it written that Joseph is the Father?

Follow the links I quoted, that’s why I quoted them.

I know because I believe what is written is true, that's the key you see?

Certainly the key to religious belief is to believe something as true whether it is true or not. This is otherwise known as blind faith. From the perspective of reason the rational person would rather choose to believe something that is actually true and that requires evidence. This means your claim to ‘know’ is simply vacuous, which I hope you realize.

Your key then is believing that what is written is true but you have no way to know that what is written is actually true. Isn’t that a rather foolish outlook?

Because it makes sense.

How can that be true? No one has ever been able to demonstrate that a god or spirit in any form exists, or even that one could ever exist, or that such things are in anyway possible.

How then can you claim it makes sense to believe such things? It seems very clear that such beliefs do not and cannot make sense.

 

[Godless]

Wow, what a turn of events...

From the origins of Christmas, to the realization if the birthday boy was actually born at all.

If I remember correctly, from bable school. but first;

Vienna:your child is too young to understand religion, and or the concept of god, thus explaining to him that Joseph is the dad of Jesus, would suit him till either you or the school teach him differently.

Back at hand;

Joseph had a "dream" the hole concept that Jesus is the holy one, and a Christ is based on a "dream". this is the reason why Joseph accepted Mary, even though she was already nocked up!.

Which back in those days would have been a no-no, to have a young woman pregnant without a husband. She would have been thought of as a slut.

thus conviniently Joseph has a "dream" that the one who is to be born is a messia.

Though I'm an atheist I do believe that the entity of Jesus as a man did exist, however everything that is claimed he did, or who he was is by all means exagerated, to create this religion of Christianity about 300 years after his death..

Godless.

 

[Bells]

Originally posted by Flores
I hope you don't end up with a smart ass child that would tell you, but mom, why only three? We can cut up the orange to thousands of pieces, and in that case which piece would christ be?.

LOL... If my child ends up being anything like I was as a child... I'll pity myself in advance... I was the smart arse kid and would always ask questions and it was those questions which resulted in the nun in religous school telling my parents that I was not cut out for religious classes because I'd never accept what I was told but always asked questions.. lol.. Lets just hope it's not all in the genes

 

[okinrus]

Well I think my parents removed me from sunday school. It doesn't seem that asking questions would get someone kicked out of sunday school though. But perhaps when you were in sunday school the nuns would beat the children for mistakes.

Though I'm an atheist I do believe that the entity of Jesus as a man did exist, however everything that is claimed he did, or who he was is by all means exagerated, to create this religion of Christianity about 300 years after his death

Well I'm not going to argue what you said before on this thread. But 300 hundred years is a exageration. Paul wrote most of his books in 50AD.

Technically you were atheist at birth, i.e. lacks belief in a god, since you were unable to hold any belief until you grew somewhat.

Lack of knowledge does not really qualify. A child would not know what God means much less say He exists.

 

[Cris]

Okinrus,

Lack of knowledge does not really qualify. A child would not know what God means much less say He exists.

Becoming a theist is a deliberate choice. Until then you are a non-theist, i.e. an atheist – one who lacks theistic beliefs.

 

[davewhite04]

Hiya Cris,

Originally posted by Cris

Technically you were atheist at birth, i.e. lacks belief in a god, since you were unable to hold any belief until you grew somewhat.

How can you have a "lack of belief" when you're a newly born child? This doesn't make any sense, you're wrong. But maybe instead of saying I was Church of England by birth I should have said christened by them.

But the C of E is such a cult/sect that states what it means to be Christian. Either you take your ideas from an existing sect/cult or you create your own. You have no choice since there is no absolute and independent definition of what it means to be Christian. You might like to claim that the Bible is the absolute guide but then which version and translation will you choose. It is because of so many translations that there exist so many sects/cults.

A Christian can be someone Professing belief in Jesus Christ, full stop.

Whose DNA was used then?

I don't know, so I'd be guessing if I said anything. Why is this important?

Follow the links I quoted, that’s why I quoted them.

Hmm Roman Catholic Beliefs... I have found flaws in there belief already, but I'll comment on a passage that is relevant to the answer I give Vienna in the first place.

Luke 2:48: "...Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you." In this passage, Jesus' mother Mary reproaches him, and refers to Joseph as his father.

This basically answers Vienna's question.

"This verse is also ambiguous, because step-fathers were often called fathers in 1st century Palestine, as they are today"

This confirms that Joseph was accepted as Jesus' Step Father.

Now a refute may be, well no, this tells us that Joseph is the Father! but this will not do, you have to believe in the whole book including the virgin birth, or none of it at all.

Thanks for the link.

Certainly the key to religious belief is to believe something as true whether it is true or not. This is otherwise known as blind faith. From the perspective of reason the rational person would rather choose to believe something that is actually true and that requires evidence. This means your claim to ‘know’ is simply vacuous, which I hope you realize.

In the beginning it does take a leap of "blind faith" if you are not the gullible type. But after you've taken this leap, which you must make with at least hope in your heart then not only the bible makes sense, but life does. With these results your faith strengthens and is no longer blind faith.

Your key then is believing that what is written is true but you have no way to know that what is written is actually true. Isn’t that a rather foolish outlook?

That's the key. I don't think there'll be any discoveries in the material world that can be used as material evidence, so you have to choose to believe. I realize that alot of intelligent people find this stumbling block enough not to pursue it further, not all though.

How can that be true? No one has ever been able to demonstrate that a god or spirit in any form exists, or even that one could ever exist, or that such things are in anyway possible.

COBOL doesn't make that much sense to me, it's restricted and there is better software packages available. However, SQL(even though there are a few different standards) makes sense. I had to have faith in my ability to learn it, but I knew once I became proficient in it there wasn't anything I couldn't do with SQL, there are a few bugs but you can always work around them. SQL by the way is a standard database software language.

The bible is like SQL to me, it opens doors. However I am not proficient in the bible yet, but I believe I've made the correct choice.

When I talk about opens doors, I mean things like viewing the world from a better perspective, feeling inner peace and having a relationship, that for me is real, with God. You, perhaps, might call me a mad computer programmer It's ok, I really don't mind.

How then can you claim it makes sense to believe such things? It seems very clear that such beliefs do not and cannot make sense.

Very clear to you perhaps, but not to me and a few billion others.


Dave

 

[Markx]

Originally posted by davewhite04
Hiya Cris,





A Christian can be someone Professing belief in Jesus Christ, full stop.

Not so fast. Where is the rest of this myth?

Son of God, Holy Spirit, trinity, the great Human sacrifice, dying for sin, crucifiction, coming back from dead etc etc etc.


I profess belief in christ as a prophet of God. Am I christian now?

 

[davewhite04]

Originally posted by Markx
Not so fast. Where is the rest of this myth?

Son of God, Holy Spirit, trinity, the great Human sacrifice, dying for sin, crucifiction, coming back from dead etc etc etc.


I profess belief in christ as a prophet of God. Am I christian now?

Maybe I should have been more specific. Believing in Jesus as Christ.

Dave

 

[Godless]

Dave..

Quote Dave: (How can you have a "lack of belief" when you're a newly born child? This doesn't make any sense, you're wrong.)

Answer:

No Chris is correct, when you are born you are a clean slate. No knowledge of anything, therefore by deducting reason if the baby does not know of god, does not believe in god, does not know what faith is, nor religion, etc...

The baby is an atheist=Lack of belief!!.Lack of knowledge makes this entity an atheist.

Godless.

 

[Markx]

Originally posted by davewhite04
Maybe I should have been more specific. Believing in Jesus as Christ.

Dave

My friend, do you know what christ means?

Didn't it came from the greek word Christos? Anointed one? or Messiah? or the rubbed one. Something like that?

I believe that Jesus was a messiah but I am not a christian. Or am I ? since I believe that Jesus was a messiah/christ. You need to be more clear about it I think. What do you think? What I am trying to say is, that christ is only a title not a something to believe in.

 

[davewhite04]

Re: Dave..

Originally posted by Godless
Quote Dave: (How can you have a "lack of belief" when you're a newly born child? This doesn't make any sense, you're wrong.)

Answer:

No Chris is correct, when you are born you are a clean slate. No knowledge of anything, therefore by deducting reason if the baby does not know of god, does not believe in god, does not know what faith is, nor religion, etc...

The baby is an atheist=Lack of belief!!.Lack of knowledge makes this entity an atheist.

Godless.

To disbelieve something you must at least recognise it in the first place.

But I'm not really interested in this direction of debate, so you believe what you will.

Dave