Christians and Christmas
- Thread starter Pakman
- Start date
Vienna,
For everyone else and a great many Christians Christmas has become a period of being with family and giving gifts around a Christmas tree. And all of that has pagan origins.
You can go on claiming all you like that it is meant to celebrate Jesus' birth, but unless everyone actually does that then clearly Christmas has multiple meanings for different people.
But only for Christians, and even most of those take no part in the religion at Christmas time.
For everyone else and a great many Christians Christmas has become a period of being with family and giving gifts around a Christmas tree. And all of that has pagan origins.
You can go on claiming all you like that it is meant to celebrate Jesus' birth, but unless everyone actually does that then clearly Christmas has multiple meanings for different people.
More Christians take part in the celebration of Christmas than any other Christian celebration.
Well you've just explained this yourself, what people are doing when they "think" they're celebrating Christmas, are just celebrating some pagan style solstice event!
There is only one meaning for Christmas, all other explanations are pagan and excuses for a piss up or whatever.
What you are saying here is that Christmas has nothing to do with Christianity and the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. You are very wrong!
Due to the commercialism and secularism of today, the meaning of Christmas has become corrupt. Many people that "celebrate" Christmas today never even think of Jesus Christ, yet it was because of our Saviour Jesus Christ that the world has Christmas today.
You can celebrate the pagan solstice holiday as much as you want, but don't confuse it with Christmas.
And if you still don't believe me - Ask the Pope
CHRISTMAS - The celebration of the birth of JESUS CHRIST, OUR SAVIOUR AND LORD!
Originally posted by Vienna
More Christians take part in the celebration of Christmas than any other Christian celebration.
Well you've just explained this yourself, what people are doing when they "think" they're celebrating Christmas, are just celebrating some pagan style solstice event!
There is only one meaning for Christmas, all other explanations are pagan and excuses for a piss up or whatever.
What you are saying here is that Christmas has nothing to do with Christianity and the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. You are very wrong!
Due to the commercialism and secularism of today, the meaning of Christmas has become corrupt. Many people that "celebrate" Christmas today never even think of Jesus Christ, yet it was because of our Saviour Jesus Christ that the world has Christmas today.
You can celebrate the pagan solstice holiday as much as you want, but don't confuse it with Christmas.
And if you still don't believe me - Ask the Pope
CHRISTMAS - The celebration of the birth of JESUS CHRIST, OUR SAVIOUR AND LORD!
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M*W: WHY THE CHURCH PICKED DEC-25 FOR JESUS BIRTHDAY
The actual birthday of Jesus was forgotten by the early Christian movement. in those days, various groups celebrated his birth on JAN-6, APR-21 and MAY-1. By the 4th century, the church selected the approximate time of the winter solstice as the date to recognize Jesus' birth. They picked up this date from Pagan sources. As luck would have it, the autumn equinox might have been a more accurate choice.
The winter solstice occurs about DEC-21 each year. It is the day of the year when the night is longest and the daytime shortest. Using the crude instruments available, ancient astronomers were able to detect by DEC-25 of each year that the daytime had become noticeably longer. This date was chosen, and remains, the traditional date for followers of many different Pagan religions to celebrate the rebirth of the sun. Following the solstice, each succeeding day has slightly more sunlight than the previous day. It was seen as a promise that warmth would return once more to the earth. Numerous pre-Christian Pagan religions honored their gods' birth or rebirth on or about that day. Their deities were typically called: Son of Man, Light of the World, Sun of Righteousness, Bridegroom, and Savior. Some examples are:
Roman Pagan Religion: Attis was a son of the virgin Nana. His birth was celebrated on DEC-25. He was sacrificed as an adult in order to bring salvation to mankind. He died about MAR-25, after being crucified on a tree, and descended for three days into the underworld. On Sunday, he arose, "as the solar deity for the new season." 5 His followers tied an image of Attis to a tree on "Black Friday," and carried him in a procession to the temple. His body was symbolically eaten by his followers in the form of bread. Worship of Attis began in Rome circa 200 BCE.
Greek Pagan Religion: Dionysus is another savior-god whose birth was observed on DEC-25. He was worshipped throughout much of the Middle East as well. He had a center of worship in Jerusalem in the 1st century BCE. Some ancient coins have been found in Gaza with Dionysus on one side and JHWH (Jehovah) on the other. In later years, his flesh and blood were symbolically eaten in the form of bread and wine. He was viewed as the son of Zeus, the Father God.
Egyptian Pagan Religion: Osiris is a savior-god who had been worshipped as far back as Neolithic times. "He was called Lord of Lords, King of Kings, God of Gods...the Resurrection and the Life, the Good shepherd...the god who 'made men and women be born again'" 5 Three wise men announced his birth. His followers ate cakes of wheat which symbolized his body. Many sayings associated with Osiris were taken over into the Bible. This included: 23rd Psalm: an appeal to Osiris as the good Shepherd to lead believers through the valley of the shadow of death and to green pastures and still waters
Lord's Prayer: "O amen, who art in heaven..."
Many parables attributed to Jesus.
Worship of Osiris, and celebration of his DEC-25 birth, were established throughout the Roman Empire by the end of the 1st century BCE.
Persian Pagan Religion: Mithra was a Persian savior. Worship of Mithra became common throughout the Roman Empire, particularly among the Roman civil service and military. Mithraism was a competitor of Christianity until the 4th century. Their god was believed to have been born on DEC-25, circa 500 BCE. His birth was witnessed by shepherds and by gift-carrying Magi. This was celebrated as the "Dies Natalis Solic Invite," The "Birthday of the Unconquered Sun." Some followers believed that he was born of a virgin. During his life, he performed many miracles, cured many illnesses, and cast out devils. He celebrated a Last Supper with his 12 disciples. He ascended to heaven at the time of the spring equinox, about March 21.
The Babylonians celebrated their "Victory of the Sun-God" Festival on DEC-25. Saturnalia (the Festival of Saturn) was celebrated from DEC-17 to 23 in the Roman Empire. The Roman Emperor Aurelian blended Saturnalia with a number of birth celebrations of savior Gods from other religions, into a single holy day: DEC-25. After much argument, the developing Christian church adopted this date as the birthday of their savior, Jesus. The people of the Roman Empire were accustomed to celebrating the birth of a God on that day. So, it was easy for the church to divert people's attention to Jesus' birth.
References:
B.G. Walker, "The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets," Harper & Row, (1983)
http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_sel.htm
Myths?? Secrets??Tolerance???
I am conversing with pagan numbskulls
What on earth you talking about?? Grasping at straws now aren't you.
We all know that your a bit of a crank Mrs. M*W, please take your copy and pastes and shove them where the sun don't shine. If you can't utter your own personal thoughts on the subject then I truly feel sorry for you
I've told you thickskinned lot before and I will say this once again for the last time......................................
CHRISTMAS - The celebration of the birth of JESUS CHRIST, OUR SAVIOUR AND LORD!
And this is my last word on this subject, if you do not wish to be educated on the subject of Christmas fair enough. Any further questions please email the Pope
Enjoy your pagan festivals this solstice - you heathens.
Originally posted by Vienna
Myths?? Secrets??Tolerance???
I am conversing with pagan numbskulls
What on earth you talking about?? Grasping at straws now aren't you.
We all know that your a bit of a crank Mrs. M*W, please take your copy and pastes and shove them where the sun don't shine. If you can't utter your own personal thoughts on the subject then I truly feel sorry for you
I've told you thickskinned lot before and I will say this once again for the last time......................................
CHRISTMAS - The celebration of the birth of JESUS CHRIST, OUR SAVIOUR AND LORD!
And this is my last word on this subject, if you do not wish to be educated on the subject of Christmas fair enough. Any further questions please email the Pope
Enjoy your pagan festivals this solstice - you heathens.
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M*W: I have no problem "uttering my own personal thoughts," but since this is supposed to be a time of "peace on Earth and goodwill toward all," I'll just keep my personal thoughts to myself. Whatever it is you believe this time of year, (i.e. Virgin Mary, Joseph, baby Jesus, and all the animals in the manger), you should fit right into the nativity scene, because you're such an ass.
Vienna,
Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the Church. Irenaeus and Tertullian omit it from their lists of feasts; Origen, glancing perhaps at the discreditable imperial Natalitia, asserts (in Lev. Hom. viii in Migne, P.G., XII, 495) that in the Scriptures sinners alone, not saints, celebrate their birthday; Arnobius (VII, 32 in P.L., V, 1264) can still ridicule the "birthdays" of the gods.
In England, Christmas was forbidden by Act of Parliament in 1644; the day was to be a fast and a market day; shops were compelled to be open; plum puddings and mince pies condemned as heathen. The conservatives resisted; at Canterbury blood was shed; but after the Restoration Dissenters continued to call Yuletide "Fooltide".
Conclusion. The present writer in inclined to think that, be the origin of the feast in East or West, and though the abundance of analogous midwinter festivals may indefinitely have helped the choice of the December date, the same instinct which set Natalis Invicti at the winter solstice will have sufficed, apart from deliberate adaptation or curious calculation, to set the Christian feast there too.
I’m not sure if that statement says anything useful. Many people celebrate Christmas without any religious involvement, are you including Christians in that group? What does it mean for a Christian to celebrate Christmas? Perhaps going to church and/or praying, at least, right?
Well no, I doubt most people consciously think of the solstice, are even aware of it or the pagan history behind Dec 25. In practical terms Christmas is a holiday period, a break from work for most and a time for family and gift exchanges. A religious component is not included for most families in the world who ‘celebrate’ Christmas.
You seem to be confusing the meaning you are trying to impose and the reality that many people apply their own equally valid meanings – e.g. a time to be with family and exchange gifts and be happy.
That might be what you want me to say or think I am saying but I have not said anything like that. The Dec 25 time was originally a time for pagan festivals that existed long before Christianity. Many aspects of these festivities have clearly and overwhelmingly survived in the current celebrations, e.g. gift giving, evergreen trees, feasting, holly, mistletoe, Santa Clause, etc., etc. These are not Christian activities. That Christianity has also adopted the date and given the time a name means that it is also a time for Christians to celebrate their deity.
Well no. It has become what it has become. It has perhaps drifted away from the Christian expectation, and is more like the pagan ideas. In that sense it was Christianity that corrupted the original pagan ideas and now it is moving back towards its some of its original celebratory activities, although I can’t see anyone worshipping a Sun god anymore.
Yup, my point exactly. Clearly Christmas means something else to those people.
Except that if Christianity had not been invented then the pagan festivals would likely have continued as they did before Christianity, and strangely enough continue today. All Christianity has done is to give the period a different name, and added a religious component that most see as entirely optional.
I have no confusion, both events occur on the same day. But while most people understand the religious implications, i.e. the birthday of a mythological god, most do not directly participate in any related religious activity. To most people Christmas is a family time for gift exchanges, etc.
OK, well at least the Catholic Encyclopedia. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm
Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the Church. Irenaeus and Tertullian omit it from their lists of feasts; Origen, glancing perhaps at the discreditable imperial Natalitia, asserts (in Lev. Hom. viii in Migne, P.G., XII, 495) that in the Scriptures sinners alone, not saints, celebrate their birthday; Arnobius (VII, 32 in P.L., V, 1264) can still ridicule the "birthdays" of the gods.
In England, Christmas was forbidden by Act of Parliament in 1644; the day was to be a fast and a market day; shops were compelled to be open; plum puddings and mince pies condemned as heathen. The conservatives resisted; at Canterbury blood was shed; but after the Restoration Dissenters continued to call Yuletide "Fooltide".
Conclusion. The present writer in inclined to think that, be the origin of the feast in East or West, and though the abundance of analogous midwinter festivals may indefinitely have helped the choice of the December date, the same instinct which set Natalis Invicti at the winter solstice will have sufficed, apart from deliberate adaptation or curious calculation, to set the Christian feast there too.
But for the majority of people – an excuse to party, and hope the religious nuts stay away.
you answered your own question, 25 december is the day that you celebrate jesus birth, that was the original idea, coca cola invented the red santa claus. and if your not christian, you tell me why do you celebrate christmas?
Vienna,
Unlike others I don’t see this period as a time to be with family, partly because they are mostly in the UK and there is no way I’m going to visit somewhere cold when I don’t have to. This is a good time to get some work done so I’ll be working through the solstice week.
Explained away?
No need. I don’t celebrate Christmas, the religious or the pagan version.
Unlike others I don’t see this period as a time to be with family, partly because they are mostly in the UK and there is no way I’m going to visit somewhere cold when I don’t have to. This is a good time to get some work done so I’ll be working through the solstice week.
Bells
Staff member
Now you know how we feel when we converse with YOU Vienna.
If only it were your last word on the subject. We've down this road before and you'd always come back again and again. And believe me Vienna, if I ever came to your for any form of education, it would mean that my mind had been reduced to a vegetative state
. And yes I would prefer to email the Pope, as even he in his shocking state would make more sense than you.LMAO!! Well said
Bells
Staff member
Originally posted by Vienna
Bells
OK point taken, we have different views Ok. I wanna ask you something that has puzzled me for a while.
Its off the subject hope you don't mind.
When a disaster occurs, say to your house or something, like lightening has hit it and does some damage, ok. You claim from the insurers, but only to be told they don't pay out because it was an act of God.
Hang on a minute I thinks, how would this explanation of refusal of payment for damages go down with an atheist - "act of God"??
What do you think Bells, I'm just curious.
Vienna
Well since I'm not an atheist per se I can't really tell you how an atheist would handle it. But personally, I'd want to know what they classify to be an act of God. For example you used the damage to house analogy, well I'd want to know how damage to my house in a storm was an act of God? The act of God argument for insurance companies is a scam. Someone very dear to me passed away a few months ago and I was there at his bedside as he died. He had been ill for some time, but his death was still a shock to us all as that final moment came suddenly and the doctor's mishandling of his illness had exacerbated the issue. About 5 minutes after he'd died and my family and I were in such pain that no words can explain it, his doctor walked into his hospital room and said... "well in the end it was an act of God". Now my family (unlike me) are all devout Christians, and they found that comment so offensive that he doctor had to leave the room quickly to avoid further embarrassment to himself. Anger someone who is grieving and then you know what wrath really is. My family and I were appalled at such a pitiful excuse for this beautiful man's death. The act of God reason is but a pitiful excuse and is a fallacy and it is discriminatory.
There is no such thing as an act of God. God did not cause damage to my house in a storm, he/she was not the one damaging my home personally. And that is how I would reply to such a claim by an insurance company. And if they refused to pay out still, I would go again over the fine print and try and find mention of the words "act of God" and then whether I find it or not, I'd sue their arse for not paying and for discrimination. If I was covered for storm damage then I would have to be reimbursed for any damage caused to my home in the event of a storm. The notion of a so called act of God is offensive, whether you're an atheist or a believer because it is so discriminatory.
Bells
Staff member
File a formal complaint.
When I was a child long long long ago, my parents made me take religious studies. Now the nun at these classes explained it to us like this. God is the father of Jesus but Joseph was the man who was entrusted in bringing the boy Jesus up to be a man. Now as a child I found this to be confusing and I was not alone. Many hands went up to ask questions that day and the nun went on further to clarify it as the notion that God was the father but Joseph was the papa (daddy... sorry the lessons were in french and the idea of papa is still how I refer to it). Children as young as 7 may find the whole notion of a virgin birth to be confusing, unless you've had the "talk" with them.
But if you're unhappy with the way your child's school is educating its students, file a formal complaint to the heads of the school. If they do nothing about it, go higher... Bishop, etc.