Christians and Christmas

[whitewolf]

Why don't you all fuck off and leave Christians to celebrate Christs birthday in peace. Instead you knock it, scorn it and insult it,

I'm assuming you are Christian. In which cace, this year, don't you dare give presents, and don't you dare light up that damned pagan tree! Instead, get a birthday cake.

We celebrate these things because they are a tradition, in our family and in our culture.

 

[Vienna]

Originally posted by whitewolf
I'm assuming you are Christian. In which cace, this year, don't you dare give presents, and don't you dare light up that damned pagan tree! Instead, get a birthday cake.

We celebrate these things because they are a tradition, in our family and in our culture.

I will write this very slowly for you so as you don't miss anything...
Christmas is a Christian celebration and is an important part of Christianity, it will be celebrated by Christians in what ever manner Christians feel fit.

You can do as you like.

 

[whitewolf]

Christians in what ever manner Christians feel fit.

But the Bible prohibits pagan worship! Which outlaws the Christmas tree. And I've also heard that easter stems from pagan traditions, with its eggs and bunny.

Which brings me to the next question: Why do we color the eggs for easter? And why is there a bunny?

 

[Bells]

Originally posted by Vienna
Reading through these posts I find that atheists celebrate 25th December by paying tribute to the solstice, just like pagans - primitive. I know lots of muslims that celebrate Christmas - odd!
Why don't you all fuck off and leave Christians to celebrate Christs birthday in peace. Instead you knock it, scorn it and insult it, in short your all fucking jealous that you haven't got anything in your life which is as fine as Christmas.

And reading through your posts Vienna all I find is that you are a very small minded individual with no life. So seeing that in all other posts you've stated that you aren't a Christian and that you're bordering on atheism, you wont be celebrating Christmas at all this year?

Christmas is a Christian celebration and is an important part of Christianity, it will be celebrated by Christians in what ever manner Christians feel fit.

You can do as you like.

Oh wait, I forgot, after the tirades that you've put us through, you then stated that you kind of follow Jesus Christ. So does that mean you will be celebrating Christmas? Vienna, all you are is a fence sitter. You abuse one religion when it suits your argument or the current climate and then you adopt another religion when it suits.

If you had bothered to read what was being said in this thread, you'd have realised (even with your minute intelligence) that what we were discussing in this thread was the origin of Christmas and what it means to people. Why should you care if atheists or muslims celebrate it? What possible business is it of yours? Are they infringing on your own pitiful little life when they celebrate it? My guess would be no, since you have no life. I'd suggest that you rethink your comments about paganism, atheism, agnostics and muslims, etc. They at least have a belief in something or nothing. They are sure of where they stand. Others aren't sure and at least are honest about it. You on the other hand use religion as a shield to hide behind when it suits your argument and then abuse others for their beliefs like a self-righteous know it all. You really should only criticise others for their beliefs when you know where you stand yourself.

And as for calling Pagans primitive, don't forget that most of the Christian holidays, including Christmas were originally pagan holidays. Or are you such a pure Christian now that you deny its history? So by definition, that would make all Christians pagans in a way, since they adopted all of the pagan's holidays and converted it to Christianity. But I forgot, you aren't a Christian, you just follow Christ ... which would make you what exactly?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Originally posted by Bells
And reading through your posts Vienna all I find is that you are a very small minded individual with no life. So seeing that in all other posts you've stated that you aren't a Christian and that you're bordering on atheism, you wont be celebrating Christmas at all this year?

Oh wait, I forgot, after the tirades that you've put us through, you then stated that you kind of follow Jesus Christ. So does that mean you will be celebrating Christmas? Vienna, all you are is a fence sitter. You abuse one religion when it suits your argument or the current climate and then you adopt another religion when it suits.

If you had bothered to read what was being said in this thread, you'd have realised (even with your minute intelligence) that what we were discussing in this thread was the origin of Christmas and what it means to people. Why should you care if atheists or muslims celebrate it? What possible business is it of yours? Are they infringing on your own pitiful little life when they celebrate it? My guess would be no, since you have no life. I'd suggest that you rethink your comments about paganism, atheism, agnostics and muslims, etc. They at least have a belief in something or nothing. They are sure of where they stand. Others aren't sure and at least are honest about it. You on the other hand use religion as a shield to hide behind when it suits your argument and then abuse others for their beliefs like a self-righteous know it all. You really should only criticise others for their beliefs when you know where you stand yourself.

And as for calling Pagans primitive, don't forget that most of the Christian holidays, including Christmas were originally pagan holidays. Or are you such a pure Christian now that you deny its history? So by definition, that would make all Christians pagans in a way, since they adopted all of the pagan's holidays and converted it to Christianity. But I forgot, you aren't a Christian, you just follow Christ ... which would make you what exactly?
----------
M*W: Remember, this is the guy who called himself just "average" in every aspect of his life. Pardon the Freudian analogy, but is it any wonder he calls himself an average "Vienna" (i.e. sausage) and not a huge "Bockwurst?"

 

[Vienna]

One dumb heathen starts and they all follow like sheep...LOL!

Water off a ducks back ROFLMFAO!!!!!!!!

Comon you primates - you can do better than that.

 

[Fafnir665]

Originally posted by Vienna
One dumb heathen starts and they all follow like sheep...LOL!

Water off a ducks back ROFLMFAO!!!!!!!!

Comon you primates - you can do better than that.

Or can you do no better then they? You can't refute even one of their claims or arguments, just resorting to meaningless insults instead? I doubt anyone but me will respond to this comment, and the iobky reason I am is to point out your extreme ignorance.

 

[Vienna]

Originally posted by Fafnir665
Or can you do no better then they? You can't refute even one of their claims or arguments, just resorting to meaningless insults instead? I doubt anyone but me will respond to this comment, and the iobky reason I am is to point out your extreme ignorance.

Of course your gonna say that

You wouldn't recognise intelligence if it smacked you in the face, and you probably deserve one.

I'm playing with you all - Christmas is for Christians not Heathens Primates Atheists Muslims etc etc.

When you shower can claim to equal such a gift as Christmas let me know. Enjoy your Atheistmass, Paganmass or Heathenmass whatever you wish to call it, you are all jealous that you haven't got an equivalent as pure as Christmas in your sorry lives to celebrate.

 

[Cris]

Moderator comment -

Come on guys - fewer personal attacks please and more on the real topic - after all this is the season of peace and goodwill to everyone, right? Now does that idea have a pagan or Christian origin?

 

[Cris]

Some of the origins of Christmas.

All of the customs of Christmas pre-date Christianity. The day is a collection of traditions and practices taken from many cultures and nations.

The date of December 25th comes from Rome and was a celebration of the Italic god, Saturn, and the rebirth of the sun god. This was done long before Christianity.

It was noted by the pre-Christian Romans and other pagans, that daylight began to increase after December 22nd, when they assumed that the sun god died. These ancients believed that the sun god rose from the dead three days later as the new-born and venerable sun. (This is also the most likely explanation for the Christian Resurrection myth.) Thus, they figured that to be the reason for increasing daylight.

This was a cause for much wild excitement and celebration. Gift giving and merriment filled the temples of ancient Rome, as sacred priests of Saturn, called dendrophori, carried wreaths of evergreen boughs in procession.

In Germany, the evergreen tree was used in worship and celebration of the yule god, also in observance of the resurrected sun god.

The evergreen tree was a symbol of the essence of life and was regarded as a phallic symbol in fertility worship. So perhaps telling your young kids that the Christmas tree in the corner of the room represents a giant p----, may not be entirely appropriate.

Witches and other pagans regarded the red holly as a symbol of the menstrual blood of the queen of heaven, also known as Diana. The holly wood was used by witches to make wands. The white berries of mistletoe were believed by pagans to represent droplets of the semen of the sun god. Both holly and mistletoe were hung in doorways of temples and homes to invoke powers of fertility in those who stood beneath and kissed, causing the spirits of the god and goddess to enter them.

These customs transcended the borders of Rome and Germany to the far reaches of the known world.

The word "Mass" means death and was coined originally by the Roman Catholic Church, and belongs exclusively to the church of Rome. The ritual of the Mass involves the death of Christ, and the distribution of the "Host", a word taken from the Latin word "hostiall" meaning victim! In short, Christmas is strictly a Roman Catholic word.

It looks like the tactics of the Romish Church absorbed the customs, traditions and general paganism of every tribe, culture and nation in their efforts to increase the number of people under their control. E.g. "Bring your gods, goddesses, rituals and rites, and we will assign Christian sounding titles and names to them.

So is Christmas Pagan or Christian? The name is Christian, but most of the rituals are still very much Pagan.

It looks like just an ugly hybrid that satisfies neither side, or perhaps satisfies many but only partially.

 

[Fafnir665]

Originally posted by Vienna
Of course your gonna say that

You wouldn't recognise intelligence if it smacked you in the face, and you probably deserve one.

I'm playing with you all - Christmas is for Christians not Heathens Primates Atheists Muslims etc etc.

When you shower can claim to equal such a gift as Christmas let me know. Enjoy your Atheistmass, Paganmass or Heathenmass whatever you wish to call it, you are all jealous that you haven't got an equivalent as pure as Christmas in your sorry lives to celebrate.

And I'm supposed to find this post so amazingly well thought out and intelligent that it squashes all further attempts to respond to it... why? You havn't said a single thing that is argument quenching, awe inspiring, or even very well thought out.

Since you want to play like that though, how long has christmas been just for christians?

On one hand, Christmas is a religious holiday for Christians, but is also a cultural holiday for Eurpoeans. Thus, one can accept and revere the religous mesage and meaning but reject its European cultural accretions of Santa Claus, reindeer, mistletoe, frantic shopping, alienated gift-giving, etc. (Ibid)

The fact of the matter is, Christmas is not just for christians. Christmas is a cultural holiday, celebrated by whomever wants to celebrate it. Just because it doesn't have the same underlying meaning for them as it does a christian, doesnt make it any less a christmas.

 

[Bells]

Cris

Very true. The symbols that are adopted by Christians and non-christians alike during the Christmas season are based on pagan beliefs. The Church adopted December 25, a Pagan holiday, for the day that Christ was supposedly born. And this was seen to be a way to reign in the Pagans. The symbols such as the Christmas tree and holy and mistletoe are all pagan symbols which were later adopted by Christians as their own. Most of the Christian holidays were originally Pagan holy days. As for the notions of goodwill, I'd guess they were also Pagan in origin as the early Christian churches had no concept of goodwill. All they cared about was to convert and conquer.


And Vienna...

You wouldn't recognise intelligence if it smacked you in the face, and you probably deserve one.

Talking from experience? I see all the face smacking you've received has been ineffectual. And it's nice to see how mature you're behaving in this post. Insulting people when you realise you have no true argument. Classic Vienna style... or lack of.

 

[Vienna]

Originally posted by Cris
Some of the origins of Christmas.

http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract3.html

Thank you Cris

Nice copy and pasting. Any original thoughts?

 

[Vienna]

Originally posted by Fafnir665
Since you want to play like that though, how long has christmas been just for christians?

Ever since the birth of Christ

The fact of the matter is, Christmas is not just for christians.

Why???

Out of interest do you celebrate Eid too????

Christmas is a cultural holiday, celebrated by whomever wants to celebrate it.

Christmas is a Christian celebration.
Do recognise the connection here...Christ....Christmas?? Hello?????

Just because it doesn't have the same underlying meaning for them as it does a christian, doesnt make it any less a christmas.

You haven't a clue have you?

You celebrate Christmas in the true stlye of the secularism and commercialism of today.

You all see it as a good old piss up and a family get together without knowing why.

Get a life!

 

[Bells]

Vienna, one day you're actually going to surprise me and make sense. Unfortunately that day is not today.

The actual notion of Christmas is togetherness to celebrate the birth of Christ. So people wanting to get together with family for a piss up as you so nicely put it, fits in with the central basis of Christmas. The notion of bearing gifts is indoctrinated in Christianity as reperesenting the symbol of the 3 wise men bearing gifts. Are you aware what Christmas stands for Vienna? It stands for goodwill and family and peace and tolerance. I see you haven't got any of that yet as you have no goodwill, you aren't a peaceful person but enjoy insulting others and this brings us on to the notion of tolerance.. of which you have NONE. Why do you care that non-christians celebrate Christmas? Are you that much of a bigot that you wont even share that holiday with people who aren't Christians? So if a non-christian told you merry christmas you'd tell them off? I have family members who aren't Christians and they celebrate it with us because they recognise it as a time of togetherness. Go to any church on Christmas day Vienna and you will hear the priest/pastor go on and on about how this is the time for peace and togetherness and forgiveness.

But seeing as you said yourself you aren't a Christian, your home is void of all the symbols that indicate that you celebrate the season, since you say that Christmas should only be celebrated by Christians. I think it is YOU who needs to get a life Vienna. In the process get some humanity, it might get you somewhere one day. Many non-christian leaders celebrate Christmas by for example going to mass. Why do they do it? Because they wish to show respect to those who follow the Christian belief and also because they recognise it as a day of peace and togetherness. Who cares if non-christians celebrate Christmas. They do so because they recognise what it stands for and wish to participate by either not fighting on that day, being with their families or giving gifts. I think these non-christians get the notion of what Christmas is truly about Vienna. You on the other hand do not.

 

[Vienna]

Belles

You can try and justify it till the cows come home, but Christmas is a Christian celebration - not Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, Secular or friggin Martian - it is a CHRISTIAN CELEBRATION.

Belles - talking to the likes of you is like tyrying to educate pork, on second thoughts, pigs have more sense. The majority of people on these boards are ignorant and uneducated to the plain truth of Christmas and you are no exeption.

But carry on celebrating Christmas, you acknowledge the fact that Jesus is the Saviour and you confirm that Christianity is the one and only true Faith, thank you.

 

[Vienna]

Originally posted by Pakman
Why do Christians celebrate Christmas?

The answer to this is easy!

Christmas is a celebration of the Incarnation, the supreme mystery that the Holy and Almighty God took on human flesh and became one of us in order to effect our salvation. A mystery this profound and glorious can't be contemplated in just one day. This is why the church pauses during Advent to prepare for the Lord's coming. This is also why Christmas extends for a period of twelve days and leads directly into the breathtaking festival of the Epiphany, the day and season the church sets aside to ponder the many ways Christ revealed Himself to the world.

Besides Christmas Eve and Christmas Day, there are other December festivals that help believers recall the true meaning of Christmas. The three days immediately following Christmas Day are sometimes called "Witness Days."

December 26th honors Saint Stephen, Deacon and Martyr, the first Christian to die for his faith (see Acts 7:54-60).

December 27th is the Festival of Saint John, Apostle and Evangelist. John was the disciple whom the Holy Spirit inspired to write the Gospel lesson appointed for Christmas Day, the beautiful words that summarize the miracle of the Incarnation: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… (see John 1:1-18 for the complete text).

December 28th is a memorial to the Holy Innocents, the baby boys of Bethlehem who were murdered by King Herod in his insane attempt to exterminate the Christ-child (see Matthew 2:16-18).

On the surface, these festivals have little in common with each other or with Christmas Day. However, each of these days points to the true meaning of Christmas. Stephen willingly gave up his life for his faith. The Innocents of Bethlehem were martyred without their choice. The apostle John endured persecution and exile to preach the Gospel.

These three days remind us that it is because of the ugliness and magnitude of our sins that Christ was born. They also remind us that the life of the Christian is sometimes full of hardship and suffering, and that Satan and the world are enemies to the saving message of the Gospel.

But in spite of our own sins, the devil's machinations, and the world's sorrow, Christians are able to rejoice in God's Son, Jesus Christ, born two thousand years ago in Bethlehem to die for us and save us.

Another special commemoration takes place on January 1st, the Eighth Day of Christmas. Eight days after the Lord's birth, Mary and Joseph had Him circumcised as required by Jewish law. At His circumcision, He was also formally given the name Jesus (see Luke 2:21). The significance of this day is twofold. First, circumcision was the visible sign of God's covenant with Abraham and his descendants (see Genesis 17:1-13). In the cutting of flesh and the spilling of blood, we see a prophesy of Christ's death on the cross for the sins of the world and the fulfillment of God's ancient promise to bless the children of Abraham. Second, we receive yet another glimpse of the true meaning of Christmas in the name Jesus, which means "He saves." As recorded in Matthew 1:20-21, an angel spoke these words to Joseph concerning the child that Mary was carrying in her womb: Joseph… do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name JESUS, because he will save his people from their sins.

Never forget the real meaning of Christmas, the true "reason for the season:" JESUS CHRIST, OUR SAVIOR AND LORD!

 

[Bells]

Originally posted by Vienna
Belles

You can try and justify it till the cows come home, but Christmas is a Christian celebration - not Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, Secular or friggin Martian - it is a CHRISTIAN CELEBRATION.

Belles - talking to the likes of you is like tyrying to educate pork, on second thoughts, pigs have more sense. The majority of people on these boards are ignorant and uneducated to the plain truth of Christmas and you are no exeption.

But carry on celebrating Christmas, you acknowledge the fact that Jesus is the Saviour and you confirm that Christianity is the one and only true Faith, thank you.

No Vienna, I never said that Christianity was NOT a Christian holiday. No one has stated that Christmas is not a Christian holiday.

As for your thoughts on Christianity being the one and only true faith, only bigots and people of very low intelligence think that. Christianity is not and nor has it EVER been the one and only true Faith. It is but one of many.

And as for pigs having more sense than I? Vienna, I can only be thankful that I at least have some sense. After all, I could think like you do and if that were the case, I'd rather cut my limbs off. Everyone knows what Christmas is and what it actually means. But NO ONE has the right to say that only Christians should celebrate it. Who gives you that right? What, you've converted to Christianity for this thread because it suits your argument? If a non-christian decides to put up a Christmas tree and celebrate it with their family, who made you God and deny them that right? If a non-christian decides for whatever reason to go to church and celebrate christmas, who gives you the right to tell them they aren't allowed to do so?

My reasons for celebrating Christmas is because it is a chance to spend time with my whole family and those I love, many of whom AREN'T Christians. And my parents who are devout Christians would be appalled if I celebrated Christmas because I thought like you, that Christianity is the only true faith. Christmas is about tolerance, not about people like you thinking they are above everyone else because they read the Christian Bible. And I find it interesting that you are now prattling on about Christianity being the one true faith, where before you'd crap on about how you were an atheist and that Christians had it all wrong. So you're a Christian now so that you can celebrate Christmas and lord it over those who aren't by your definition Christianity? Your hypocrisy never ceases to astound me Vienna. I'd rather be what you deem to be ignorant. Because to think like you would make me a bigot and a hypocrite.

 

[Vienna]

Originally posted by Bells
No Vienna, I never said that Christianity was NOT a Christian holiday.

Well thank you for that, and thank you for celebrating the worlds biggest and finest religious celebration - Christmas.

CHRISTMAS - The celebration of the birth of JESUS CHRIST, OUR SAVIOUR AND LORD!

 

[Fafnir665]

Originally posted by Vienna
Christmas is a Christian celebration.
Do recognise the connection here...Christ....Christmas?? Hello?????

On one hand, Christmas is a religious holiday for Christians, but is also a cultural holiday for Eurpoeans. Thus, one can accept and revere the religous mesage and meaning but reject its European cultural accretions of Santa Claus, reindeer, mistletoe, frantic shopping, alienated gift-giving, etc

On one hand, Christmas is a religious holiday for Christians, but is also a cultural holiday for Eurpoeans. Thus, one can accept and revere the religous mesage and meaning but reject its European cultural accretions of Santa Claus, reindeer, mistletoe, frantic shopping, alienated gift-giving, etc

On one hand, Christmas is a religious holiday for Christians, but is also a cultural holiday for Eurpoeans. Thus, one can accept and revere the religous mesage and meaning but reject its European cultural accretions of Santa Claus, reindeer, mistletoe, frantic shopping, alienated gift-giving, etc

On one hand, Christmas is a religious holiday for Christians, but is also a cultural holiday for Eurpoeans. Thus, one can accept and revere the religous mesage and meaning but reject its European cultural accretions of Santa Claus, reindeer, mistletoe, frantic shopping, alienated gift-giving, etc

On one hand, Christmas is a religious holiday for Christians, but is also a cultural holiday for Eurpoeans. Thus, one can accept and revere the religous mesage and meaning but reject its European cultural accretions of Santa Claus, reindeer, mistletoe, frantic shopping, alienated gift-giving, etc

On one hand, Christmas is a religious holiday for Christians, but is also a cultural holiday for Eurpoeans. Thus, one can accept and revere the religous mesage and meaning but reject its European cultural accretions of Santa Claus, reindeer, mistletoe, frantic shopping, alienated gift-giving, etc

On one hand, Christmas is a religious holiday for Christians, but is also a cultural holiday for Eurpoeans. Thus, one can accept and revere the religous mesage and meaning but reject its European cultural accretions of Santa Claus, reindeer, mistletoe, frantic shopping, alienated gift-giving, etc

On one hand, Christmas is a religious holiday for Christians, but is also a cultural holiday for Eurpoeans. Thus, one can accept and revere the religous mesage and meaning but reject its European cultural accretions of Santa Claus, reindeer, mistletoe, frantic shopping, alienated gift-giving, etc

On one hand, Christmas is a religious holiday for Christians, but is also a cultural holiday for Eurpoeans. Thus, one can accept and revere the religous mesage and meaning but reject its European cultural accretions of Santa Claus, reindeer, mistletoe, frantic shopping, alienated gift-giving, etc

On one hand, Christmas is a religious holiday for Christians, but is also a cultural holiday for Eurpoeans. Thus, one can accept and revere the religous mesage and meaning but reject its European cultural accretions of Santa Claus, reindeer, mistletoe, frantic shopping, alienated gift-giving, etc

On one hand, Christmas is a religious holiday for Christians, but is also a cultural holiday for Eurpoeans. Thus, one can accept and revere the religous mesage and meaning but reject its European cultural accretions of Santa Claus, reindeer, mistletoe, frantic shopping, alienated gift-giving, etc

On one hand, Christmas is a religious holiday for Christians, but is also a cultural holiday for Eurpoeans. Thus, one can accept and revere the religous mesage and meaning but reject its European cultural accretions of Santa Claus, reindeer, mistletoe, frantic shopping, alienated gift-giving, etc

On one hand, Christmas is a religious holiday for Christians, but is also a cultural holiday for Eurpoeans. Thus, one can accept and revere the religous mesage and meaning but reject its European cultural accretions of Santa Claus, reindeer, mistletoe, frantic shopping, alienated gift-giving, etc

On one hand, Christmas is a religious holiday for Christians, but is also a cultural holiday for Eurpoeans. Thus, one can accept and revere the religous mesage and meaning but reject its European cultural accretions of Santa Claus, reindeer, mistletoe, frantic shopping, alienated gift-giving, etc