But if you look in the Torah, God is referred to in the plural. People seem to gloss over this, both Jews and Christians. I've seen some convoluted 'explanations' for this, but Elohim has a the plural suffix.
christianity is a polytheism
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I ask again: even if Christianity were polytheistic - and I entreat those subscribing to this theory to isolate in which doctrine of any contemporary, mainstream branch of Christianity this is actually declared, since the implication is general to the entire religion - so fucking what? So what? Or: what then? Is monotheism somehow specifically more moral than polytheism? More "advanced"? How? By what standard? (The unenlightened will claim a lower body count.)
I recommend The Man Who Saw Through Heaven for a bit of reflection.
I recommend The Man Who Saw Through Heaven for a bit of reflection.
Often monotheists themselves see monotheism as superior to polytheism or other theisms, so if it turned out that Christianity itself had polytheistic elements this sense of superiority would be challenged. Often secular historians of religions, even atheists have argued that there is a kind of intelligence/superior culture progression from animism to polytheism to monotheism and these people's positions would be undermined to whatever extent Christianity was really a polytheism. That may not be the intentions of others here, but that would be part of mine.
No it is not a contradiction. It is just not understandable.
People who say we worship 3 Gods are wrong. When our beliefs are that the three are one, we believe in One God.
1 John 5
For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are One.
Can’t figure it out? Relax your not supposed to.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
The Elohim are angels, not gods. Same with the Nephilim and Seraphim.
No. I just double-checked myself in Wikipedia, a Catholic Website, dictionary.com and a Jewish site's translation of the opening of Genesis and they all say that Elohim refers to God.
A couple of these explained why this does not really mean God was plural, but I remain unconvinced by this kind of after-the-fact making it all fit together nicely.
The other two terms you mentioned I agree with you about.
A couple of these explained why this does not really mean God was plural, but I remain unconvinced by this kind of after-the-fact making it all fit together nicely.
The other two terms you mentioned I agree with you about.
Not even close. The Christian Trinity is not three gods; it is one god with three persons, or incarnations.
I am a polytheist; take it from me: I know what polytheism is, and Christianity is not it.
I don't think it's that simple. I think many Catholics consider Mary for example very much the kind of holy creature a polytheist would one of their deities. And in many cultures, where Christianity partially took over polytheistic beliefs the lines are blurred even further. Certainly some South American Christians are not in the closet polytheists. And however much Christians may say that Jesus was 'really' God, he was Gods son and they often worship them in different ways.
We can't confuse what people say their official position is with what they actually do and believe.
I mean think about how many people will say they are not racist.
You have at least three divine figures in Xtianity: God, Jesus and Mary. With different qualities, different times one calls out to them, different stories AND stories about how they related to each other and spoke to each other. Toss in the Holy Ghost, Satan/Lucifier, Angels and the way some Christians relate to Saints and you have a set of divine creatures.
Not really, no. Mary and the Saints are not divine entities unto themselves; Christians, particularly Catholics and Orthodox, see them as people who died in god's grace and can be prayed to for intercession. They aren't seen to hold divine or supernatural powers on their own.
Whereas a polytheist, like myself, sees the gods as powerful supernatural and divine entities. The gods are gods, and nothing less. There really is no other way to put it.
I have already addressed the Trinity, as have others earlier in the thread. If you can't get through your head, that's your own damn fault.
Whereas a polytheist, like myself, sees the gods as powerful supernatural and divine entities. The gods are gods, and nothing less. There really is no other way to put it.
I have already addressed the Trinity, as have others earlier in the thread. If you can't get through your head, that's your own damn fault.
1) in my travels in South America I saw mixtures of polytheistic and monotheistic practices and beliefs all over the place, but especially in rural areas.
2) My sense is that people have official ideas and then the way live. I think polytheistic practices and beliefs occur in many places in Christianity as practiced by believers.
3) Certainly there are monotheistic Christians and certainly official positions are held that it is monotheistic. Educated and intellectual Christians can toss around terms like 'incarnations' which they less intellectual Christian peers would not.
I could now talk about you getting my beliefs into your head and how if you can't it's is your damn problem. But I actually view it as we disagree.
2) My sense is that people have official ideas and then the way live. I think polytheistic practices and beliefs occur in many places in Christianity as practiced by believers.
3) Certainly there are monotheistic Christians and certainly official positions are held that it is monotheistic. Educated and intellectual Christians can toss around terms like 'incarnations' which they less intellectual Christian peers would not.
I could now talk about you getting my beliefs into your head and how if you can't it's is your damn problem. But I actually view it as we disagree.
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Certainly. I'm reminded of the indiginous people of Oaxaca and Chiapas, Mexico. Their religion is more of a syncretic Mayan/Catholic tradition, but they describe themselves as Catholic nevertheless, and--deities which originate in Mayan traditions aside--it is quite clear that they also regard Mary as a deity. In Mexico, at least, this attitude seems to spill over into the Catholicism of many non-indigenous folk as well.
Of course, I've known certain types of Christians who like to maintain that these folks are not "real" Christians.
That's more of Folk Christianity. It is not a part of Church Doctrine; it's just folk beliefs that were too strong to really go away.
It's not a matter of agreement or opinion. Christianity says it is monotheist; ergo, it is monotheist. Our opinions are irrelevant.
We are talking about millions of people. I had similar experiences in Italy with Catholics, not all of them of course, and less ornately ritualed, but nevertheless. These people are counted as Christians by their churches. I see Christianity as a very, very diverse set of phenomena.
Christianity can't say anything. We have some rather complex and not necessarily consistant texts, we have an incredible range of ceremonies and personal ways of going about being Christian. Those approaches are opinions that are relevent.
And, again, people can say one thing, but by their actions reveal something else is true about them.
And, again, we disagree. Telling me our opinions are irrevelent as part of telling me your opinion is correct just doesn't wash with me.
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Thank you.
That is precisely what I am getting at. And they are counted in Papal surveys, you can damn well bet.
In latin america the polytheism is more obvious, it is up front. I see it also in the way people in other places relate to God, Jesus and Mary most of all. They feel differently about and pray differently to God and Jesus. They depict them differently in their images. They appeal to them at different times. And yes, many ask for Mary to intercede of send in a special request to God, but others do not make this clear distinction. Also they treat Jesus and God differently. If you asked most of them, they would say there is one God, because they know that is the official position and the right answer, but at the same time they will behave in different ways towards Jesus and God.
Hinduism, even when it has many gods and godesses can be a monotheism - where the various gods and goddesses are seen as manifestations of Vishnu or some other biggie - but it can also be a polytheism. More relevent to this topic it can often be very hard to tell what a particular believer believes. Are they all real and separate or simply manifestations of One true God? The answers run the full spectrum of possibilities. And one can come away with clearly stated answers unsure where a particular believer falls on the spectrum.
And let's not forget Lucifer. A seemingly eternal being with a great deal of power, at the very least to manipulate. Lucifer is not God. And while he is called a fallen angel, imagine the look on a pagan's face when you tell them stories about Lucifer and then say
UNLIKE YOU WE ONLY HAVE ONE DEITY THAT'S PART OF WHY OUR RELIGION IS SUPERIOR.
Yah, right.
Pagan religions have a variety of entities with a variety of powers and lucifer/satan fits right in the family of trickster/bad gods and godesses.
And if you go to the Protestant churches, say in the Bible Belt, Lucifer/Satan takes on a very powerful role. He is breathing down all of our necks and we are all one step from falling into his clutches. God, on the other hand, is much more transcendant. You have to work to stay in contact with him. With Satan all you have to do is slack off on a Friday night
and he is right there to scoop you up.
Tell me those guys are monotheists.
UNLIKE YOU WE ONLY HAVE ONE DEITY THAT'S PART OF WHY OUR RELIGION IS SUPERIOR.
Yah, right.
Pagan religions have a variety of entities with a variety of powers and lucifer/satan fits right in the family of trickster/bad gods and godesses.
And if you go to the Protestant churches, say in the Bible Belt, Lucifer/Satan takes on a very powerful role. He is breathing down all of our necks and we are all one step from falling into his clutches. God, on the other hand, is much more transcendant. You have to work to stay in contact with him. With Satan all you have to do is slack off on a Friday night
and he is right there to scoop you up.
Tell me those guys are monotheists.
Weird.
If your view is consistent then no one is a monotheist. Because islam and torah judaisim believe satan/lucifer exists.
As for myself i believe satan exists along with demons and Angels, they are not god's. I am saved by the Messiah Jesus. Even if i fall down every friday night.
And "work" ing to stay in contact with God. That’s the stuff of religious bondage that denies the gift of forgiveness that Jesus has secured for those who believe Him.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
No. Observe the end of the first para in Wiki. A change in terminology over the years, apparently. Probably related to that whole Ezekiel/Watcher thingie. A lost mystery, there.
No matter how much you speculate, the central premise of this thread is still wrong. Christianity is a monotheistic religion, that much is obvious.
As for praying to Saints, that's more a cultural phenomenon.
As for praying to Saints, that's more a cultural phenomenon.
To me the Wiki def. might leave it open. The other sites do not.
You asserted earlier that Elohim are Angels.
Here is the opening to Genesis:
My bold on Elohim.
Unless you are saying that pretty much every Bible out there the translation is incorrect – and that it was angels who created the heavens and the earth – I cannot see how Elohim can mean anything other than God.
Did the Angels say Let there be light?
Nevertheless it is a plural word, given the suffix.
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WarAgainstError
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