christianity is a polytheism

[GeoffP]

But as powerful as God? I think not. God is the Morning-bringer, the Creator of...well, Creation. Satan didn't do that. No...I don't feel that the Baptists I knew ever felt that way. They might have been a bit more scarer of Satan, but in their defense God's supposed to be your friend whereas Satan's not so nice a guy.

 

[Hapsburg]

True, but for many Baptists and the like, Satan is every bit as omniscient and omnipotent and I think the hierarchy is all but forgotten.

Keep in mind, most Christian theology in the West, even Protestantism, is based on St. Thomas Aquinas' writings. Aquinas interpreted the Aristotelian idea of an unmoved mover as God. In Western Christianity, God is that unmoved Prime Mover; anything and everything else, no matter how powerful, is moved by God's will or actions, and is thus lesser to him. Since Christianity is monotheistic, those other things are explicitly not gods.

 

[swarm]

Of course xtians claim their god's enemy isn't as powerful, but then why is he still kicking around?

 

[Hapsburg]

Of course xtians claim their god's enemy isn't as powerful, but then why is he still kicking around?

From the Christian perspective: either god is selectively lazy, has a "grander plan" that necessitates Satan's activity, or there's some kind of bureaucratic loophole.

From my personal perspective: IDGI. Yet another reason why monotheism just ain't for me. Too many logical hiccups.

 

[scifes]

I am a polytheist; take it from me: I know what polytheism is, and Christianity is not it.

lol, i'm a monotheist; take it from me: i know what monotheism is, and Christianity is not it.

that doesn't mean i don't believe you, it could just mean that it's somewhere in between without being one conclusively.

and i think some of the users participating in the discussion here seem like christians to me, but for some reason they don't want to stand up, seems i'm the only one who didn't take geoffp's hypothesis to my intentions behind this thread seriously.

but i've found a way to phrase it well:

if a god is someone who is worshiped, then who is/are the god/s?? or his parts/incarnations/combination?

either they worship the one, who becomes god, and his parts are just that, parts or incarnations or whatever, because i'm sure other monotheism have different "faces" to their one god but they worship him as only one.

or they worship the "parts", making them the gods, and a shared entity which unites all three, is one, which is as seen as i said a combination of their gods. but not a god in himself as he isn't worshiped himself.

or,
they worship the gods/parts and the combination/god, which IMO doesn't make sense, or is undefined. makes them worship four actually.


and for those who were wondering, this was one part i didn't understand about christianity and debating metaphysics with the atheists got monotonous, so i was looking for a change.

and you can do or worship whoever you want, this is sciforums, you should know that.

i also liked the analogy that the introduction of the three "aspects" of the originally one god was actually the church sorting out the contradictions they found in their bible. i guess that's the view i'll adopt.

also, to whether or not polytheism is "lower" than monotheism, i guess that depends on the person's belief that a religion might be "true":

1-if he believes a religion could be true, disregarding polytheism is easier than monotheism, because it makes less sense, again, keep in mind this is how someone WHO BELIEVS A DEITY/S COULD EXIST.

2-if he thinks it's BS, then at first monotheism is nonsense as much as polytheism, and some would go further to compare the effects of each theism on it's believers to the other, find that polytheists are USUALLY more peacful and tolerant and so prefer it to monotheism.

?? How exactly is a belief in the existence of Satan equivalent to polytheism? I think you're confusing polytheism with the idea about a "heavenly order" or its incarnadine opposite, the Satanic host. An angel or demon need not be a god.

True, but for many Baptists and the like, Satan is every bit as omniscient and omnipotent and I think the hierarchy is all but forgotten.

But as powerful as God? I think not. God is the Morning-bringer, the Creator of...well, Creation. Satan didn't do that. No...I don't feel that the Baptists I knew ever felt that way. They might have been a bit more scarer of Satan, but in their defense God's supposed to be your friend whereas Satan's not so nice a guy.

the existence of a being with a will out of it's creator will makes the creator less of a god and the creation more of one.
it simply makes the original god NOT omnipotent, he didn't know, or he couldn't do anything about it.

the christian version of god is that he was sorry for bringing evil upon the people. and he had to erase the sin he brough upon people.
that makes him more like us, we make mistakes and try to correct them, either because we didn't know, or we couldn't avoid it.
an omnipotent god should be above both.

for example, in islam, god knew, could've stopped it, but had it be that way because he wanted to, we can go on for decades on the morality of such choice made by god, but i'll leave it at that.

 

[parmalee]

But as powerful as God? ... No...I don't feel that the Baptists I knew ever felt that way. ...

Originally posted by Hapsburg
Keep in mind, most Christian theology in the West, even Protestantism, is based on St. Thomas Aquinas' writings. ...

Originally posted by swarm
Of course xtians claim their god's enemy isn't as powerful, but then why is he still kicking around?

Meh. Don't feel that they felt that way? Traces of Aquinas in the fervent convictions of the Southern Baptist, who may or may not be wholly attentive to the teachings of his minister or diligent in his reading of the NT?

Ultimately, the people come up with their own notions about their holy books--and their god(s) and deity(ies)--and (the) church (with it's "clearly" defined notions) may or may not do anything about it dependent upon whether it is politically warranted.

 

[parmalee]

and i think some of the users participating in the discussion here seem like christians to me, but for some reason they don't want to stand up...

Hmmm. Who are you referring to? I'm not really seeing it--based upon the responses, that is. (though not saying such may not be the case.) Maybe; maybe not.

the existence of a being with a will out of it's creator will makes the creator less of a god and the creation more of one.
it simply makes the original god NOT omnipotent, he didn't know, or he couldn't do anything about it.

Interesting. In the direction of gnosticism, but not quite...

Anyhows, Meister Eckhart's concept of Gelassenheit (roughly: letting-go-ness)is relevant: the will is to be subordinated (but not to god's will, but to the nature of god and the divine: the godhead), but how is one to do this except by force of will? Eckhart equates the "poverty of spirit" (i.e. "blessed are the poor in spirit...," also the "rich man" in the camel-eye of a needle analogy) to a poverty of will, which of course is not merely a suppression of will (again, a problem presents). The interesting part, Eckhart writes (and spoke):

So I say that one should be so poor (in will) that he should not be or have any place in which God could work. When one clings to place, he clings to distinction. Therefore I pray God that he may make me free of "God," for my real being is above God if we take "God" to be the beginning of created things.

Of course, this was deemed "heretical" and earned Eckhart a condemnation, but it's relevance and impact soldiered on.

 

[GeoffP]

lol, i'm a monotheist; take it from me: i know what monotheism is, and Christianity is not it.

Well, I'm sorry, but clearly you don't know what monotheism is after all.

if a god is someone who is worshiped, then who is/are the god/s?? or his parts/incarnations/combination?

?? Just God. That's it. I appreciate the idea that you at least accept the distinctions you outline below; I may have misjudged your intentions.

Meh. Don't feel that they felt that way? Traces of Aquinas in the fervent convictions of the Southern Baptist, who may or may not be wholly attentive to the teachings of his minister or diligent in his reading of the NT?

Well, ask them directly: do you worship three gods, or one god with three "personages" (such a crude phrasing)?

 

[parmalee]

Well, ask them directly: do you worship three gods, or one god with three "personages" (such a crude phrasing)?

First of all, the Baptists may not have been the best example--ask the Central and South Americans, and others alluded to in this thread. But, going with some (not all) Baptists:

Do you (believe) in three gods, or one?
(Probably) one.

How do you distinguish Satan from a god?
Hmm.


p.s. Nice signature, Geoff!

 

[GeoffP]

Me? One god, Maker of etc etc.

I distinguish Satan from a god exactly in this: he's a fallen angel. He doesn't have absolute power, or else the world would be a lot worse. Though you could always ask the Cathars what they thought of that, if there were any left to disagree.

 

[Adstar]

Adstar
As for myself i believe satan exists along with demons and Angels, they are not god's.

”
But there are very much like what anthropologists and even Christians call the gods of other religions.

Well "very much like" is not God.

Adstar And "work" ing to stay in contact with God. That’s the stuff of religious bondage that denies the gift of forgiveness that Jesus has secured for those who believe Him.

It is not an idea I came up with. It is an idea that many, many Christians believe in.

But perhaps you do not think they are Christians.

Your right, i do not think they place their trust in the righteousness of God through the Redeemer Jesus. It stems from a desire to be worthy and their knowledge of their own unworthiness.

Feelings of unworthiness and the desire to be worthy can then act upon the person to cause them to doubt they still have the gift and to believe others who pander to their fears and feelings. Who preach to them salvation through the achievement of goodness.

A lot of so called christians believe in salvation by being good. They believe in paying for the gift by their righteousness. They try to turn the gift into a payment. But it can only ever be a gift.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

:facepalm:
ugh, what was i thinking, asking a question about christianity in an atheist forum, are there any christians on board to get this show on the road with or should i pack my stuff and leave?

HELLO!!
ANY CHRISTIANS HERE?

What’s your question?

And this is an athiest forum. Primarily this place is provided for aggressive anti Christians to bash Christianity. So you would not expect many Christians to be here. Most people do not enjoy being abused; Christians are no different in that regard.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[scifes]

lol, hey we're in the same boat, my dear theist friend, all theists automatically share an alliance whenever crossing the otlandish boarders of sciforums religious subforum...it's a comradship i never though i'd be forming in my life..

well my question is a simple one, is christianity a polytheism because you worship three instead of one, if not, then how come?

and thanks for standind up, just try to be less causious next time, it's more fun that way

indeed, all praise the ancient of days

 

[goodchristians]

Me? One god, Maker of etc etc.

I distinguish Satan from a god exactly in this: he's a fallen angel. He doesn't have absolute power, or else the world would be a lot worse. Though you could always ask the Cathars what they thought of that, if there were any left to disagree.

There is a reference to Cathars in this thread.

As a factual clarification, the term "Cathars" derives from the Greek word Katheroi and means "Pure Ones". They were a gnostic Christian sect of tolerant pacifists that arose in the 11th century, an offshoot of a small surviving European gnostic community that emigrated to the Albigensian region in the south of France.The medieval Cathar movement flourished in the 12th century A.D. throughout Europe until its virtual extermination at the hands of the Inquisition in 1245.

There are an ever increasing number of historians and other academics engaged in serious Cathar studies. Interestingly, to date, the deeper they have dug, the more they have vindicated claims that medieval Catharism represented a survival of the earliest Christian practices.

Thank you!
Brad Hoffstetter
Communications Division
Assembly of good Christians

Some credible sourcespps not allowed to post those links

 

[Adstar]

lol, hey we're in the same boat, my dear theist friend, all theists automatically share an alliance whenever crossing the otlandish boarders of sciforums religious subforum...it's a comradship i never though i'd be forming in my life..

well my question is a simple one, is christianity a polytheism because you worship three instead of one, if not, then how come?

and thanks for standind up, just try to be less causious next time, it's more fun that way

indeed, all praise the ancient of days

If the Three are One then it cannot be said that we worship 3.

John declares that.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word = Jesus to the human mind the above statement is an impossability. Humans do not have the capacity to seeing Jesus as being with God in the beggining but also being God at the same time.

The problem with a lot of people who are seeking a definitive answer on this question is that they are seeking a difinitive, understandable answer on this question. No explanation can be given that is understandable to human beings in our current state of being.

Soooo,, what do people do??? They settle on AN answer that is understandable to them.

Such as Christianity is a polythistic religon where people worship 3 Gods.

Or Christianity is a religion that worships a God that transforms Himself into 3 different personalities.

Or Christians worship a God who somehow has tri-polar personalities.

Or,,, Or ,,, Or and the list goes on.

I say Jesus is God , the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God they are all One.

An interesting conversation between phillip and Jesus:

John 14
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.” 8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?

Jesus is God.

I know this does not answer your question as you want it answered. You want an Answer but i give you a mystery.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[GeoffP]

Of course xtians claim their god's enemy isn't as powerful, but then why is he still kicking around?

Ah, the usual story: why'd he do anything? But it doesn't mean he's as powerful. Mind you, you'd do well to ask the Zoroastrians about the eternal standoff; they're dualists.

well my question is a simple one, is christianity a polytheism because you worship three instead of one, if not, then how come?

No, and we don't, so it isn't.

There is a reference to Cathars in this thread.

As a factual clarification, the term "Cathars" derives from the Greek word Katheroi and means "Pure Ones". They were a gnostic Christian sect of tolerant pacifists that arose in the 11th century, an offshoot of a small surviving European gnostic community that emigrated to the Albigensian region in the south of France.The medieval Cathar movement flourished in the 12th century A.D. throughout Europe until its virtual extermination at the hands of the Inquisition in 1245.

There are an ever increasing number of historians and other academics engaged in serious Cathar studies. Interestingly, to date, the deeper they have dug, the more they have vindicated claims that medieval Catharism represented a survival of the earliest Christian practices.

Thank you!
Brad Hoffstetter
Communications Division
Assembly of good Christians

Some credible sourcespps not allowed to post those links

Yes, I've heard that. It true in some sense: Cathar faith was sort-of similar to the other Aryan beliefs and/or the Monophysites and all that, which do indeed go way back. I'm pretty comfortable with my Trinitarianism, I suppose, but I do appreciate the earlier interpretations. I just don't believe in them. Perhaps my faith is founded on a slim difference: but a difference it is, nonetheless.

 

[parmalee]

It's kinda funny, Geoff: scifes appears to be accusing many of the posters here (in this thread) of being either "closet Christians," or intolerant atheists prone to mockery of theists/Christians. And Adstar is doing the latter. Yet, I've kinda gathered that you might in fact be a Christian (and I don't mean a "closet" one, so that certainly wasn't an "attack"--I'm a little vague sometimes, my new "one minute rule"); Hapsburg is openly a polytheist; Doreen--I don't know, but certainly not intolerant; and myself--don't know/not telling, but also not intolerant. Odd.

 

[scifes]

thanks adstar, really appretiate your reply and clarification.

what i gathered from what you said, is that they are three names for one entity.
in islam god has 99 names and adjectives he is called by, some are actually the two opposite of each other, but they're not contradictory because each has it's place, or each name fits an angle of view.
like the most merciful and the most punishing, for example.

but as i said, do you worship or deal with each of the three as if they were separate, do you worship them independently?

if not, then by my dictionary you're a monotheist.. dilemma solved, misunderstanding cleared.

if you knowledge the three faces but also worship them separately, which seems to be the case because being the father of one's self(unless i'm taking it too literally) is impossible, and uh, if god's the father than who's his wife? definitly not mary? and i don't think is entitled to have a wife..

idk..

No, and we don't, so it isn't.

i don't believe it, you don't cease to surprise me, so again, are you a guy or a women?
because i was under the impression you're a guy till you had some personal message implying you're a wife..

:scratchin:
YOU BETTER NOT BE BOTH!

 

[GeoffP]

It's kinda funny, Geoff: scifes appears to be accusing many of the posters here (in this thread) of being either "closet Christians," or intolerant atheists prone to mockery of theists/Christians. And Adstar is doing the latter. Yet, I've kinda gathered that you might in fact be a Christian (and I don't mean a "closet" one, so that certainly wasn't an "attack"--I'm a little vague sometimes, my new "one minute rule");

I "came out".

i don't believe it, you don't cease to surprise me, so again, are you a guy or a women?
because i was under the impression you're a guy till you had some personal message implying you're a wife..

That was a joke. You'd have to have a better grasp of pop culture and the forums to understand.

 

[Adstar]

thanks adstar, really appretiate your reply and clarification.

what i gathered from what you said, is that they are three names for one entity.
in islam god has 99 names and adjectives he is called by, some are actually the two opposite of each other, but they're not contradictory because each has it's place, or each name fits an angle of view.
like the most merciful and the most punishing, for example.

but as i said, do you worship or deal with each of the three as if they were separate, do you worship them independently?

if not, then by my dictionary you're a monotheist.. dilemma solved, misunderstanding cleared.

Well i only ever talk to YAVEH, But i see you are trying to come to a definitive conclusion about me by saying:

"what i gathered from what you said, is that they are three names for one entity."

No. if that where the case then like islam we have many descriptions ( called names ) for YAVEH. I guess if i looked into it i could come up with 50 or more.

So no Jesus (God With us) and the Holy Spirit are not just different titles for God. I can appreciate you desire to put my peg into a hole but sorry to say that because the 3 being 1 cannot be put into a hole, I as a believer also cannot be put into a hole.


All Praise the Ancient Of Days