Chosen People = Racist Supremacist Ideology

[The Devil Inside]

Hey you have a quote of me saying something anti-Jewish?

I never have said anything anti-Jewish.

I'm anti-Zionist and thus anti-Israeli, but I respect Jewish religion and Jewish ethnicity.

Zionism is a political movement, it has nothing to do with religion, infact its anti-religion.

Peace.

THANK you. how hard have i been asserting this the entire thread? for fuck's sake, at least ONE other person understands this!!

 

[The Devil Inside]

please ban brian foley.

 

[Brian Foley]

Just to clear the direction of this thread a bit and explain this thread as in relation to those posters who claimed Jews were indeed a race . The object of this thread is that if Jews are a race then these quotes must be racist supremacism .

I want to point out the current argument here with GeoffP and me and his contradicatory stance and his refusal to answer the threads assertion of the Chosen people .

The first answer to my thread was by GeoffP who declared that seeing Jews were not a race then it could not be seen as racist tracts .

Again, Jews are not a race, Foley. One would have thought you'd learned that, at least.

In fact GeoffP declared only weeks prior to this assertion that Jews were a race .

Cartoons - bad for your health?

Wrong again. One is offensive to the religious position of muslims - who, as you know, are not a race - and one to the existence of Jews, which are a race.

His excuse for this contradiction was .

Old post. I examined the evidence, changed my mind. "Race" in this manner applies, best case, in the old biological definition.

GeoffP further added a quote from a post on Jewish genetics he authored as an example of how he changed his mind .This was the quote from this thread GeoffP put forward as an explanation for now changing his mind .

I argued that there was no genetic differentiation between Jewish people - Occidental or Ashkenazim - and Palestinians, and that, in fact, they were not a "race"

In fact on that very same thread GeoffP concluded this that in his opinion due to the evidence in his study that Jews were race .

Jewish race myth trash, and Khazarian converts

However, breeding within a homogenous subpopulation for a good, what? 5000 years? says to me strongly that they are indeed a "race"

GeoffP has taken a deliberate contradictory stance , he has been caught out on it by me whence his refusal to answer the threads Biblical chosen people quotes .

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

I think one of the problems with all religions is that a lot of people who are either born into the 'club' or 'enter' into the 'club' in later life do so without fully knowing the history and the meaning of what they are doing hence, when People like GeoffP do get defensive , its due to lack of knowledge about what they are defending. Or there is the alternative which is that the subject matter cannot be defended, there is no defense.

Myself, I have no religion but I do believe in God and I am thus in no mans land, the religious can't place me and neither can atheists. But my beliefs are personal and unique to me and I have no desire to share or spread them.

PI recently tried to start a an athiest party, thus turning a 'matter of opinion' into a faith, which included all the traditional elements of a religion...rules, banishings and rewards for good behaviour. But instead of a God, the all powerful voice was to be that of Pi! It seems that some people will always try to use their views to win favour, support and power, by seeking to spread their view across the largest audience they can reach, instead of merely honouring their view point and enjoying it quietly. Why is this?

I understand religions mainly came about in times of great disquiet and religion brought order to the disorderly. But in a modern world where the law of the land now dictates our code of conduct, why can't religion return to being about worship/faith/kindness and respect instead of all this perpetual division?

Humans should be united unless they wish to remain divided for reasons that have nothing to do with 'God'. My belief: There is one God , he created us all and we will reap the rewards (or NOT) for our way of living in this life time, as there is nothing that can exist in 'heaven or hell' that does not exist right here right now on planet Earth.

So the Christians that do not follow Jesus will NOT burn in Hell.
The Muslims that drink alcohol will NOT burn in Hell
The Jews are NOT the chosen people and will not be going to any promised land now or after death.

Fighting amongst ourselves and dividing curries no favour with god, of that I sure. Any more than it curries favour with a parent when their children start squabbling about who loves mummy more and beating the crap out of each other to prove it. They'll both end up in bed with no supper tha's not symbolic for hell by the way!

 

[Zephyr]

Foley, the most likely reason that other readers of the religion forum haven't commented on this thread is that they assume it's a troll post. Hence the only people arguing here are those who've tried to argue with you before. But nevermind. I still think that any member of the FORUM who has a decent level of intelligence and isn't specifically anti-Jewish would agree that your argument holds no water. DaleSpam, AmishRakeFight, Ophiolite would come to mind but frankly I wouldn't ask them to waste their time on this.

You display no problem in highlighting excesses of Moslems on other threads

I dislike extremism, Foley. Regardless of its origin. But perhaps because of the fact that there are many more Muslims than Jews, there are many more extremist Muslims than extremist Jews. (Just as there are many more moderate Muslims than moderate Jews. This is called 'math')

I don't deny the existence of extremist Jews. I stated that right from the start. But you are saying that because of some bible verses all Jews are extremist, and that is fallacious. I've attempted to point this out to you using the following logic:

1 - other religious groups, e.g. Christianity believe themselves to be chosen by God
2 - these religious groups have extremist elements, e.g. the KKK.
3 - anybody who isn't an idiot or bigoted against a religion recognises that the extremist elements, e.g. the KKK do not represent the entire religion, e.g. Christianity, so chosenness doesn't imply discrimination. (Because in most religions, chosenness means chosen to make the world better, spread the light, etc etc.)
4 - similarly anybody should be able recognise that Jewish extremists do not represent Judaism, and that chosennes doesn't imply discrimination here either.

Now you've apparently managed to understand steps 1 2 and 3. You seem to be stuck on step 4. Perhaps with time and dedication you'll get it, but right now I'm not holding my breath.

Maybe you should start by realising that just because a truth may be inconvenient to you, doens't mean it isn't true:

Yeah . yeah Im sure , so why are there still Jewish minorities in Iraq and Iran .

I didn't say 'all' Arab countries, but quite a few did ethnic cleanse I'm afraid. If Jews are still in Iran it doesn't mean that Morroco, Egypt and many others didn't perform ethnic cleansing. As for Iraq:
"In 1948, there were approximately 150,000 Jews in Iraq. In 2003, there were 100 left, though there are reports that small numbers of Jews are returning in the wake of the 2003 invasion of Iraq."

Show me quotes from either the New Testament or the Koran which endorse your claim that these faiths also claim “chosen people” status , remember you are making the claim so back it up .

Fuck the word “choseness “

First you want the word 'chosen', then you don't want the word 'chosen'...

Have you tried asking a religious Christian whether they believe they have a relationship with God? That Christians are chosen to do some kind of work for God? If they answer in the negative I'd be very surprised.

do reconstructionist Jews reject that Jews are a “chosen people” ?

Yes, the article states that very clearly. Try reading it.


I don't have time to waste in pointless arguments on this forum. I was planning to leave when I received a PM from Foley specifically asking me to post here. While I've done the best I can, I can't argue with somebody with such sophisticated mental filters. Since I'm going to leave properly: Foley, don't bother to reply to this for my sake - I won't be reading it (unless I come across it in a few months, and by then the debate should, hopefully, be long dead.) If you really want to waste someone else's time, ask someone impartial whether or not my arguments make any sense. If not, well, I never said my debating skills were perfect.

To everyone else, I apologise for encouraging him.

 

[The Devil Inside]

aint no thang but a chicken wing, zephyr.

 

[GeoffP]

No you haven’t and seeing you are deliberately avoiding them I will repost it the entire thread .

"Will", "shall", "will".

Not "do", "go", "slay".

Thanks for reposting. It makes things much clearer.

Now please go through each one and explain why it is not racist supremacism .

Again: "Will", "shall", "will".

Not "do", "go", "slay".

That covers all of them. So if you want to accuse someone of racism in those sections, wouldn't it then be God in the dock?

What the Fuck has that to do with it ? Whether its God or Moses it still written down as scripture .

It only has everything to do with it. Claiming that your "people" will come into land and power does not translate into "go get the other people". Unless you think that Jesus meant that people should get busy and kill themselves so as to come into the spiritual inheritance promised them? A good chunk of these quotes refer to specific periods, rather than future prophesy. That is: they are historical.

OK one more time boxhead , this was my reason for posting this thread .
Meaning that seeing posters such as yourself see Jews as a race ( a claim you are now distancing yourself from ) then those tracts must be racist .

And again, I am undecided. Jewish people fit the notion in some ways, not in others. You are the one trying to accuse Judaism of racism: if you accept that, then Jews are also a race, and your attacks on them also racist.

See how that works?

Got It !!!! Seeing you and others claim they are a race , then accordingly these verses must be racist supremacism .

But I don't claim they're a race. We're discussing your hatred here, not my genetic perspective on Judaism. We've already talked about that.

Before I forget I did ask you earlier , and you didn’t reply , could you answer this .

Again: I did. Let me help you out: first you must define "race". You're using "race" in your definition, so before I can answer, you must define it.

Fuck what planet did this Arsehole drop from ? Seriously do you morris dance as a hobby ?

Never mention Morris dancing to me. Ever.

And you should have as much respect for my culture as I have for the time-honoured Australian traditions of kangaroo wrestling, drunken wine-dueling and the tossing of small people for distance.

the sound and embarassin thrashing mountainhare handed you over the Khazarist thread . Obtuse , Dense is an apt word for you .

Its not my fault that you're too dense to get the evidence, Foley. Don't blame me for that.

And I change the argumetn when it suits me?

Geoff

 

[Michael]

Racial differences exist, Michael, regardless of whether or not you've been indoctrinated to think they don't. Rather than watching cutesy little adverts regarding white and black kids sharing a hug complete with tinkly sweet background music and forming your opinions based on what makes you feel better, do some bloody research.

Hello???

 

[GeoffP]

Just to clear the direction of this thread a bit and explain this thread as in relation to those posters who claimed Jews were indeed a race . The object of this thread is that if Jews are a race then these quotes must be racist supremacism .

Finally, Foley admits that his argument is - if the Jews are a race - at its core, racist. Thankyou! (whew!)

As for clarifying the history of the argument, I'll handle that, thanks.

Foley's position has waffled considerably. Back when mountain and I were arguing this out, his position was that there was no genetic relatedness between Palestinians and Jews, and that therefore there was no "genetic right of return" for European Jews to Israel, since they were not genetically related to the "original inhabitants", which he deemed to be Palestinians. Now, this argument was ultimately proved false by me by my finding an article which, contrary to Foley's position, found that in fact European and Occidental Jews were highly related to each other, and to Palestinians, dispelling the "genetic" argument against right-of-return, if, indeed, anyone had ever argued for a "genetic right-of-return". So basically, if this is the argument against European Jewish immigration to Israel, it fails miserably.

Now Foley's second premise was that European Jews were not a contigous genetic group based again on genetic evidence that Khazarite converts to the tribe of Levy had diluted the genetic mixture (from the nuclear/Y-chromosomal side, not in terms of mtDNA, on which "Jewishness" is legally based, according to Jewish law, as I understand it). However, if we again wished to argue against "genetic right-of-return" based on this evidence, it again ultimately fails for two reasons: i) "Jewishness" is, again, traditionally based on mtDNA genotype, which is maternally inherited barring mtDNA leakage, which is quite rare in humans (less than 1% I believe), and ii) the tribe of Levy, that being the unlanded tribe of the priestly class, constitutes a tiny percentage of Jewish people worldwide. The vast majority, greater than 95% I believe, descends from Judah (for which modern Jews are named) and Benjamin (also a minor tribe of origin). One might presumably argue, based on "genetic merit" (again, assuming that applies in this case) that the Levites have no "genetic right-of-return"; but, again, this is not a reflection of mtDNA haplotype, which is maternally inherited and thus reflective of matriarchal "Jewishness", on which Jewish law is based. (Ironically, the Levites, as the priestly class, didn't have any land there anyway.)

I think that's sufficiently clear. The question of "race" is currently undecided. What constitutes "race"? It generates uncertainty, even for me. Foley must define that before the argument can proceed.

Of course, as he's arguing that Jewish law is supremacist, if he succeeds in identifying Jewish people as a "race", then his own complaints are, by definition, racist.

I think that wraps that up. Also, to reiterate: those references refer to the actions of an independent third-party, God. I assume legal proceedings are in the works?

In fact on that very same thread GeoffP concluded this that in his opinion due to the evidence in his study that Jews were race .

Well, race is a quite confusing thing, isn't it, Foley - as your own arguments indicate. One minute they're not a race, so criticizing them isn't racist, the next they are, so that the actions of independent third parties are an excuse for the accusation of racism...wait...wait a second...you're not calling God racist, are you?

I hope for your sake you're not a church-goer.

Geoff

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

Finally, Foley admits that his argument is - if the Jews are a race - at its core, racist. Thankyou! (whew!)

Geoff

There is nothing even hints at Foley admitting he is being racist in that quote you posted.

I guess what you have is therefore 'blind faith' ?

 

[Brian Foley]

when People like GeoffP do get defensive , its due to lack of knowledge about what they are defending. Or there is the alternative which is that the subject matter cannot be defended, there is no defense.

All I want is for GeoffP to simply argue the verses from the scripture I provided , instead I get a race vs not a race . Its ridiculous , in fact none on this thraed who have taken a side opposite to mine has even bothered considering answering those verses .

Myself, I have no religion but I do believe in God and I am thus in no mans land, the religious can't place me and neither can atheists. But my beliefs are personal and unique to me and I have no desire to share or spread them.

Likewise I was brought up a Roman Catholic but I reject the concept of this organised view of God . I accept that there is an eternal creator but I believe we will only know when we die what this Gods identity .

So the Christians that do not follow Jesus will NOT burn in Hell.
The Muslims that drink alcohol will NOT burn in Hell
The Jews are NOT the chosen people and will not be going to any promised land now or after death.

That is a concept I really disagree with and that is this eternal damnation it is utterly barbaric .

There is nothing even hints at Foley admitting he is being racist in that quote you posted.

I guess what you have is therefore 'blind faith' ?

It is the standard run around , do you notice yet again Geoff after I have asked him agin to answer those verses he has once ignored answering those verses . His mind is locked tighter than steel drum .

 

[Brian Foley]

"Will", "shall", "will".

Not "do", "go", "slay".

OK you have not bothered touching on those verses there is no point me carrying on this debate Geoff .

Never mention Morris dancing to me. Ever.

Morris dancing and Maypole twirling are the basis of English culture , be proud ! Its right up their with English cusine , Jellied Eel pies mmmmmmm , yum .

And you should have as much respect for my culture as I have for the time-honoured Australian traditions of kangaroo wrestling, drunken wine-dueling and the tossing of small people for distance.

But Australians dont look as stupid as this :

Sticks , white hankecheifs and bells on their ankles , Christ its no wonder the Irish are fighting them to break away its just sheer embarassmet !

 

[Brian Foley]

Foley, the most likely reason that other readers of the religion forum haven't commented on this thread is that they assume it's a troll post.

You told me to post this thread and watch it be torn apart by the religious posters . In fact all that has happened is we have had posters argue whether or not Jews are a race even contradict themselves . None have even considered deconstucting the Chosen People verses , not even you and I know why , you are avoiding it is because you have to confront your own Jewishness .

Now you've apparently managed to understand steps 1 2 and 3. You

What do you mean , step 1 , I am still waiting for you to provide scriptual evidence to state that Christians beleve they are a chosen people .

I don't have time to waste in pointless arguments on this forum.

Translation : Im Fucked .

I was planning to leave when I received a PM from Foley specifically asking me to post here.

What the Fuck are you talking about ? You told me to post this thread and you immediately avoided it ! I had to PM you to come down here to Fucking answer it . And in that in the PM reply you said this

I can reply, but it might not really answer your question because IMO there are better questions to ask. But that's just human disagreement

And there within that reply is your distancing yourself from any responsibility .

Since I'm going to leave properly: Foley, don't bother to reply to this for my sake - I won't be reading it

You will be reading it I know that for sure , the simple fact is you are a coward , the fact that you will have to admit that you see yourself as a chosen person sticks in your throat , and you know by having to admit that here puts you on the same level as those Moslem fundamentalists you just love to post about .

To everyone else, I apologise for encouraging him.

To those others who have bothered themselves to answer this thread , Zephyr does not give a Fuck about your replies , his only concern was that he hoped this would of turned into fist fight with old Foley whilst the coward stood out it . Its backfired on him thats why he is not bothering to make any connections with any other debater here on this thraed , he knows you are losing it .

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

Brian I have found this lack of 'answering questions' a common theme, with exception of muslims who endeavour to explain with patience most times what is asked of them.

I see that you are trying to get the Jewish posters to see that there is double standard here on sci forums. They see only your posts though, get all inflamed and forget their racist posts in anti muslim threads.

In the 'Is Islam peaceful thread,' I tried to argue Americans were least peaceful for sole purpose of trying to get the American racists who were anti muslim to see their double standard. But they just ignored the questions or AGREED with me!

You will never get these people to see that they are doing that which they themselves despise (as a group of course not individually) all organsied religions do have their extremists and odd (in my opinion) views as to what how and where it all started and how we should live hence forth.

They should be pleased you have taken the time to study these matters as they have clearly not and its their club!

Do not be disheartened, I feel this thread will never reap the 'end' that you seek.

The end to my mind being that we can agree that we are all in it together really? All in some larger or smaller part responsible for what goes on on our planet as we are all men (men as in human, me being a girl an all!) and that no one group is more or less humane than another. Some are more advanced than others, look what we were doing just 100 yrs ago! This is not a personal critisism, time is relative, heck some cultures don't have the wheel yet! Correct me if I'm wrong in this?

One last thing! Arabs invented maths without which we'd have no sci forums or any science, so they should be grateful for that at least

 

[Brian Foley]

Brian I have found this lack of 'answering questions' a common theme, with exception of muslims who endeavour to explain with patience most times what is asked of them.

It is a debating technique of skirting the subject and attempting to introduce other angles which divert you from the actual point of the thread .

I see that you are trying to get the Jewish posters to see that there is double standard here on sci forums. They see only your posts though, get all inflamed and forget their racist posts in anti muslim threads.

What they do is the Jewish posters wrap themselves in indignation and avoid confronting the issue of Chosen people head on and begin comparisons with other religions . Zephyrs stance showed clearly he could not engage the subject head on , it is proof that this is nothing more coupled with the ideology of Zionism a supremacist creed .

In the 'Is Islam peaceful thread,' I tried to argue Americans were least peaceful for sole purpose of trying to get the American racists who were anti muslim to see their double standard. But they just ignored the questions or AGREED with me!

Seriously it is the Christian US which is the biggest threat , they are the ones murdering moslems in the numbers . Those that defend this slaughter really believe this slaughter is in defence against radical Islam .

You will never get these people to see that they are doing that which they themselves despise (as a group of course not individually) all organsied religions do have their extremists and odd (in my opinion) views as to what how and where it all started and how we should live hence forth.

Those extremists are tools of those agent provocateurs who employ these unwitting indidvuals for their own nefarious ends .

They should be pleased you have taken the time to study these matters as they have clearly not and its their club!

No they just convince themselves that I am a radical Neo-Nazi Anti-Semite and let the matter rest . It is a cop-out similar to ostriches with their heads in the sand . The reality of confronting the negative side of their own beliefs scares the shit out of them .

Do not be disheartened, I feel this thread will never reap the 'end' that you seek.

No I am not disheartened there has been a campaign to have me banned or boycotted with copious amounts of complaints being forwarded , I am still here and this thraed has not been locked up as they have tried .

One last thing! Arabs invented maths without which we'd have no sci forums or any science, so they should be grateful for that at least

And some good looking girls

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

[QUOTE.

And some good looking girls [/QUOTE]

I'm no lesbian, but you can say that again! These anti muslim guys need to watch some arab tv!

 

[GeoffP]

There is nothing even hints at Foley admitting he is being racist in that quote you posted.

I guess what you have is therefore 'blind faith' ?

If he argues Judaism is racist, then Jews must by definition be a race. This means that his argument is inherently racist.

Talk about blind...none so blind as those who will not see, eh?

Geoff

 

[GeoffP]

Translation : Im Fucked .

You certainly are. Got any responses? Are Jewish people a race? Figure it out between bouts.

Geoff

 

[GeoffP]

Brian I have found this lack of 'answering questions' a common theme, with exception of muslims who endeavour to explain with patience most times what is asked of them.

I had a good solid laugh about that, for which I thank you. Get around and post on an islamic forum and see what happens. I have; I know.

Geoff

 

[GeoffP]

I'm no lesbian, but you can say that again! These anti muslim guys need to watch some arab tv!

How can you tell under the burkhas and the bruises?

Geoff