Child/Adult Sexual Contact and Evidence

[S.A.M.]

the burden of proof is on the plaintiff. it doesn't matter if they are 12 or 89 years old.
they must prove their case

lets take an exampl;e here.
i am underage. i accuse you sam of fondling my genitals
i am the victim in this case i am innocent.
what do you think should happen in this scenario sam?

Both of us should get good lawyers?

 

[leopold]

Both of us should get good lawyers?

it doesn't matter, cause i the accuser must prove my case against you the defendant. i must prove that you touched my genitals. now i ask you how easy is it to prove that?

 

[S.A.M.]

it doesn't matter, cause i the accuser must prove my case against you the defendant. i must prove that you touched my genitals. now i ask you how easy is it to prove that?

What are you trying to say?

 

[S.A.M.]

But that was not what I proposed.



How then do you distinguish? Affection is affection. The two varieties do not exist in separate compartments. Perhaps in another twenty or thity years you get to a better realisation of this, when the largest part of sex is the ordinary affection of it and the horny bit is an extra if he is lucky enough to be fit to manage it.


The case I put is rather that the child approaches wiith the honeypot.
That is how children make a livng, by being cute.
On thing leads to another, and where then do you draw the line?

--- Ron.

Are you telling me that an adult looks at a cute child being precocious and interprets it as a sexual overture? This is a very very strange concept for me.

 

[leopold]

I find it amazing that a society in which a legal system is willing to accept a criminal innocent until proven guilty would deny the same privilege to a victim, in this case, an under age victim.

in this quote you seem to be questioning whether a victim has the same rights as a defendant.
the victim(plaintiff) must prove their case. the two do not have the same rights.

in the above example you as the defendant has the right of innocence. i as the plaintiff do not have that right, i must prove that you are guilty. you on the other hand do not have to prove anything because it is assumed you are innocent.

 

[perplexity]

Are you telling me that an adult looks at a cute child being precocious and interprets it as a sexual overture? This is a very very strange concept for me.

The trouble would rather be that somebody else interprets it as child abuse.

--- Ron.

 

[perplexity]

i
in the above example you as the defendant has the right of innocence. i as the plaintiff do not have that right, i must prove that you are guilty.

A person of good character is entitled to be believed, but there is then the small matter of reasonable doubt, which for present purposes means "suspect", whether or not the word is to one's taste.

--- Ron.

 

[leopold]

A person of good character is entitled to be believed,

i disagree. no one is above the law. i don't care how 'good' their character is, they still must prove their case.

 

[perplexity]

i disagree. no one is above the law. i don't care how 'good' their character is, they still must prove their case.

In the UK this is the advice that a barrister is entitled to give to a witness and to a jury. If there is nothing substantial to gainsay it, the word of a witness would stand.

--- Ron.

 

[S.A.M.]

in this quote you seem to be questioning whether a victim has the same rights as a defendant.
the victim(plaintiff) must prove their case. the two do not have the same rights.

in the above example you as the defendant has the right of innocence. i as the plaintiff do not have that right, i must prove that you are guilty. you on the other hand do not have to prove anything because it is assumed you are innocent.

Short of actual physical evidence (CSI stuff), this would be a problem associated with all crimes.

What I am disturbed about and debating about with perplexity is that :

1. sexual intimacy equals affection and hence bonding.

2. affection and sexual intimacy may be misinterpreted for the other.

3. children may subconsciously invite sexual intimacy.

In my culture, children sleep with their parents or uncles/aunts or grandparents.
There is a lot of touching in the family with hugs, kisses, tickling, playing.
The concept that touching = sexual overture between an adult and a child is hard to fathom.

The concept that a child's behavior can be considered as a "honey pot" is absolutely incredulous.

Do the adults have no responsibility here?

 

[S.A.M.]

i disagree. no one is above the law. i don't care how 'good' their character is, they still must prove their case.

OK I'll bite.

Since there must be precedents for this, what are the safeguards for the plaintiff and the defendant?

What is the procedure in a child abuse case?

 

[perplexity]

In my culture, children sleep with their parents or uncles/aunts or grandparents.
There is a lot of touching in the family with hugs, kisses, tickling, playing.
The concept that touching = sexual overture between an adult and a child is hard to fathom.
The concept that a child's behavior can be considered as a "honey pot" is absolutely incredulous.
Do the adults have no responsibility here?

The responsibility, is precisely the problem, i.e. other people poking their noses in.

What I have been alluding to is the tendency nowadays for uncles, aunts, teachers, social workers or whoever to have to distance themselves for fear of the allegation of child abuse.

--- Ron.

 

[S.A.M.]

The responsibility, is precisely the problem, i.e. other people poking their noses in.

What I have been alluding to is the tendency nowadays for uncles, aunts, teachers, social workers or whoever to have to distance themselves for fear of the allegation of child abuse.

--- Ron.

Alright (*ding dong*) finally got where you were going.

Yes, it is sad; I don't see the same interaction here between parents, children and other relatives that I see back home.

I've always wondered what concept of family children form under such circumstances, what expectations they have as children and later as parents.

 

[leopold]

OK I'll bite.

Since there must be precedents for this, what are the safeguards for the plaintiff and the defendant?

What is the procedure in a child abuse case?

i am not exactly sure what you are asking.
the procedure in a child abuse case would be the same as any other case, the burden of proof is on the plaintiff.

 

[S.A.M.]

i am no exactly sure what you are asking.
the procedure in a child abuse case would be the same as any other case, the burden of proof is on the plaintiff.

Yes, but considering that a child (depending on age, of course) may know the plaintiff and try to protect him/her or else may have made the whole thing up, how would one distinguish fact from fiction?

Or as Ron says, a paranoid so-&-so may have misinterpreted robust affection for sexual tampering, of which both the child and the adult are completely innocent (or not), what would be a way to figure it out?

 

[Dr Lou Natic]

I agree with samcdkey, we should be able to marry our children.

I think you should be proud for doing what you believe is right samcdkey, and I think more people should follow in your footsteps by marrying their own biological offspring and copulating with them without their consent.

 

[leopold]

Yes, but considering that a child (depending on age, of course) may know the plaintiff and try to protect him/her or else may have made the whole thing up, how would one distinguish fact from fiction?

Or as Ron says, a paranoid so-&-so may have misinterpreted robust affection for sexual tampering, of which both the child and the adult are completely innocent (or not), what would be a way to figure it out?

this is exactly why a defendant is innocent untill proved guilty.

 

[S.A.M.]

this is exactly why a defendant is innocent untill proved guilty.

Wasn't debating that, just that looking for evidence itself presupposes there is evidence to be found either to prove innocence or guilt. So considering the defendent innocent should not make it automatic to consider the plaintiff guilty.

 

[perplexity]

Or as Ron says, a paranoid so-&-so may have misinterpreted robust affection for sexual tampering, of which both the child and the adult are completely innocent (or not), what would be a way to figure it out?

To begin with the child and the adult would need to figure it out, which is not always so easy.
Lewd thoughts cross minds from time to time.
Sexual arousal may occur suddenly, out of the blue, unforeseen.

Speaking as a parent with occasion to think in these terms I would allow a great deal of leeway for fear that the stress of negative attention damages more than mild abuse, but each to his own, all inevitably a matter of discretion.

--- Ron.

 

[Dr Lou Natic]

Good point about legalising child finger blasting sam.