Challenge to theists

[shaman_]

I agree, but my comparison stands, you say that false beliefs from the past from religion is not comparable to false beliefs from the past in science? Why not?

Because they are derived in completely different ways. The theories formed though science are an interpretation of the evidence. They are an attempt to explain the universe around us. Using religion as an explanation for anything we don’t understand is a refusal to even think and learn anything. The religious answer is not really an answer. That is how we came to think that the sun was actually Ra and that Thor controlled the lightning.

Exactly, just as religion says, knowledge is the light of lights, the truth, I will never stop seeking the truth, the actual truth....

But what knowledge does religion actually bring us? It is a comforting delusion with with (mostly) good morals.

But my point was that when you say that "God does not exist because there is no evidence for nor against the idea"..."without evidence God does not exist" you are implying that "evidence causes something to become true"....because you are saying that evidence would make "God" be true...

I can’t believe that you still don’t get it after all these posts? Evidence helps to show us what is true. It does not create what is true.

What if I said I could lay golden eggs and shoot lasers out my eyes. You would like to see me do this before you believed it right? If I couldn’t do it you would not believe me. Does that mean you now think that evidence makes something true VitalOne? Same thing.

I'm not attacking science, I'm saying atheists saying someone is a delusional fool to believe in God is false, they say anyone who believes anything else is trapped in a fantasy world, imaginary fantasy...when in reality God is a very real possiblity...this is what I criticize atheism for...

Of course god is a possibility!!! How many times has this been pointed out to you? You are just ignoring the comments that you don’t want to hear.

Of course Thor, Isis, fairies, and all sorts of other magical beings are possible as well. Why is it that you don't believe in them?



I think the fact that there are so many deities is one of the things that leads people to consider atheism.

I'm not throwing out science, science is great, I accept science for what it is, a search for the truth based purely on objective evidence, however I think beyond just science knowing that there are many truths science has yet to discover...atheists do not tend to think beyond science, they do not tend to acknowledge that there are many truths science has yet to discover

What a ridiculous generalisation.

What do you mean by "beyond science" anyway?

.....yet insist they are right and everyone else is just another delusional fool

More generalisations. Were you picked on by a gang of atheists or something?

Do you think that all Christians insist that they are right and that all atheists are foolish heathens who are going to hell?

Thats not really true, if you compare a lot of creation stories there's striking similarities, I mean like they all have something to with the water, God was the causeless one, etc....almost as if they were born from one source (the truth)....

No there are vastly different creation myths VitalOne. You will try very hard not to see this as it will conflict with your beliefs but it is true.

They all have something to do with water? The creation of oceans and rivers may feature in many of them but that does not mean they came from the same place.

Also Jesus, Buddha, and Krishna all say very similar things, almost as if they were trying to explain the same essential truth to mankind....

I’m sure they said many different things as well. You are trying to see some important spiritual significance here.

The confusion is not born from me but from you...I said you form your opinons based on “your own logical conclusions, your own judgement of the evidence, etc....” and I also said that through my own judgement of history I know that many things that were thought of as true were proven either false or incomplete....where's the contradiction?

The contradiction is that the atheist stance reached from looking at the evidence (or lack thereof) while the theist position is reached without looking at the evidence. You say you support looking at the evidence yet you are defending those who don't.

 

[Godless]

Shaman, I notice by the number of posts you have, that you haven't been long here. I suppose, I can't really tell. I've been here about 6 years, and have few posts considering some like Sam "you'll meet her" has 10k plus posts but has been here apx a year.

Anyhow What I mean to say, is this guy VitalOne, other then being an embarrassment to himself and the forum is not at all there, if you can catch my drift. Obviously you are finding out, but just a little tip, don't bother too much about this guy comprehending anything with a bit of reason! Cause as perhaps you can tell, is mainly what he lacks!

 

[shaman_]

Thanks Godless. I know I am not going to achieve much here. I am too argumentative for my own good....

 

[(Q)]

you realize that the time you have spent trolling could have been used in refuting (or linking) the claim that you claim to have refuted?

Skin is right. Your intellectually dishonest claim of high school dropouts and electrons was refuted several times by several different individuals. In fact, the claim was a non-starter.

Yet, it was a tenuous grasp of this claim you kept tethering as a lifeline every time you painted yourself into a corner. Of course, once you started with the claim, the conversation was over and you pat yourself on the back for a job well done.

You're far better off holding your own without introducing this silly claim, since when you do, it makes it appear as if you've exhausted yourself and have nothing left to say.

 

[lightgigantic]

Skin is right. Your intellectually dishonest claim of high school dropouts and electrons was refuted several times by several different individuals. In fact, the claim was a non-starter.

such as?

Yet, it was a tenuous grasp of this claim you kept tethering as a lifeline every time you painted yourself into a corner.

actually I bring it up because atheists tend to somehow think (only in the case of theistic knowledge of course, since to apply such a general principle to knowledge in general is absurd) that evidence is self evident without the attainment of any prerequisites - every field of knowledge, from car mechanics to microbiology tends to suggest otherwise

Of course, once you started with the claim, the conversation was over and you pat yourself on the back for a job well done.

all it requires is a summation or link to the apparent refutation that you guys clamor about - but of course trolling is a more attractive proposal

You're far better off holding your own without introducing this silly claim, since when you do, it makes it appear as if you've exhausted yourself and have nothing left to say.

so far it seems all you can say is "you are wrong because you are wrong" (ie it violates your needs, interests and concerns)
you will have to forgive me if I refuse to accept your statements on faith

 

[lightgigantic]

Shaman, I notice by the number of posts you have, that you haven't been long here. I suppose, I can't really tell. I've been here about 6 years, and have few posts considering some like Sam "you'll meet her" has 10k plus posts but has been here apx a year.

Anyhow What I mean to say, is this guy VitalOne, other then being an embarrassment to himself and the forum is not at all there, if you can catch my drift. Obviously you are finding out, but just a little tip, don't bother too much about this guy comprehending anything with a bit of reason! Cause as perhaps you can tell, is mainly what he lacks!

the sciforums atheist wild card - when all else fails, attack the person
:m:

 

[Godless]

the sciforums atheist wild card - when all else fails, attack the person

Yawwwwssss! was that a fart, or did you actually try to blirt something?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAs6TDLuKgQ

 

[Dinosaur]

As I peruse various posts to theis thread, I wonder about those I have decided to call evangelizing atheists.

As a life long atheist with a few atheist friends, I have never felt a desire to attack the basic theist position. I will defend my view if questioned (and not able to escape the discussion), but see no reason to ask the theist to defend his view. We are so far apart, there is little to discuss on the basic issue.

Theists bother me most when they try to mix politics with theist views. That mixture seems to lead to inquisitions, burning witches, suicidal terroists, et cetera. I have often suspected that these worst results of the theist mind set are due to the manipulation of decent theists by those with political power or money motives.

You atheists who are directly challenging the theist position, must have some motive for doing so. What is it? They generally do not bother me, why should I (or you) bother them?

One of my atheist friends once said: "As they describe him, he does not seem like a bad guy. It is all those fan clubs which cause the trouble."

 

[SnakeLord]

You atheists who are directly challenging the theist position, must have some motive for doing so. What is it? They generally do not bother me, why should I (or you) bother them?

Perhaps the very same reason you've just typed what you have?

 

[Thomas]

Of course it hasn't. And why would anyone try to do that? Faith is one of the most unshakable mental states known, simply because it resides in the minds of the fearful, ignorant, or brainwashed to begin with. It is the abandonment of reason afterall. Makes sense, huh?

No not really. I don't think the Founding Fathers were fearful, ignorant or brainwashed. Can you give me an example of how they were. I am saying this because they were Deists... not Christians, Jews,Muslims etc... but they had faith. Science doesn't tell us everything... I think this point has already been made. The BIBLE or any other religious book should never, ever, ever! be taken seriously... never!! Can God exist? I don't know, but I will say this: If a singularity can exist so can god, when children have death bed visions, when people of all creeds and races have deathbed visions, when my grandpa Bob had a deathbed vision of a Man named Roger who wasn't seen by anybody else, well that says something. It says everything hasn't been explained. If you are going to say ... those people are imagining those things, well that could be. I think you should read this though...

http://www.near-death.com/deathbed.html

Thomas

 

[WraithGod]

"Originally Posted by superluminal
[Deleted]. Atheism is just the stance that it makes no sense to believe in something until there's a good reason to. "

I thought that was agnostics.

This is a good site, no matter how bored the person who created it must have been. After all, the Christians are offering about as much proof as kids who believe in Santa do. Just as children are told by their parents that Santa exists, so Christians were told by their parents that their beliefs are true. Now, if kids who believed in Santa were never told otherwise, they would continue to believe it until adulthood. You'd think they'd stop believing after they didn't receive any presents, but Santa only brings presents to those who are "good", so maybe they weren't quite up to his standards. Likewise, when something bad happens, people wonder why "God" did this to them, but they don't stop believing.

I explained it rather poorly, but it's a good analogy. After all, there are stories about Santa and his reindeer out there. There's no reason to believe that the Bible (mistranslated as it is) wasn't akin to Aesop's fables: a book with rules to be followed and lessons to be learned, but with content and events that are fictional.

I find that most atheists are skeptical at worst; they refuse to believe in your religion, so you automatically assume that they're pigheaded, even though they're not. Likewise, theists are considered ignorant because they believe in something because they were told it as a child (for the most part) without proof. But they not ignorant; they know that there are other options out there, they just don't see them as appealing. I will admit though, I find theists to be a heck of a lot harder to talk to, as their beliefs come from sets of rules written so long ago that they hardly apply to today's society. I've had very bad experiences with theists telling me that though I think my life is good, it actually sucks and can never, ever be its best without a god of some sort. Their pushing has actually turned me off religion as much as any skepticism or lack of proof could.

"You atheists who are directly challenging the theist position, must have some motive for doing so. What is it? They generally do not bother me, why should I (or you) bother them?"

I challenge it for the same reason theists challenge atheism: I believe it is the wrong stance and is negatively affecting society. And they do bother me. I go to a Catholic highschool (why? Because my parents are Catholic and I have gone through this system all my life. Why don't I drop out? These schools have more money where I live, and officially I am still a Catholic and was raised as one. Besides, over half of my school is not Catholic. We have a suspiciously large proportion of Hindu and Muslim students for whatever reason) and my religion teachers are very frustrating to talk to. I end up cornering them in some sort of debate, and they lash out with, "Oh, well, the popes MUST have known what they were doing when they wrote that" or "You're interpreting that wrong, it actually means this". Which leads me to another issue: all religious books can be twisted and read into to mean entirely different things. For example, nowhere in the Bible does it actually say that Sodom's crime was anal sex. In fact, someone did a massive analysis on how it was their desire to rape some angels visiting them. Link upon request. Thus, what they base their religion on (and even, in Catholicism's case, their interpretation of it (the Catechism)) is subjective and open to interpretation, and it is possible that a near-opposite relgion could arise from the same literature.

Finally, to the above poster, I've always heard, read (including on this forum), and watched on television that when the brain dies the electrical impulses become scattered, warping the person's perceptions and causing such visions.

((Oh yes. I know I have very few posts, but I just joined a few days ago to create a topic that I cannot create until 20 posts anyways. I'm a bit rusty, but I was pretty active on here before on my old account, which was Alien-somethingorother and existed at least two years ago (I almost died when I saw the color scheme). So give me a bit of a break. I've been on idiot mode for quite some time given the company I'm forced to keep.))

 

[SkinWalker]

Were you once "AlienMastermind?"

 

[TW Scott]

Oh, I love when Atheists try to disproove something they have no capability of actually disprooving.

Here is a possible answer for the coin toss prayer that the man missed. Jesus said he would answer our prayers alright, but sometimes the answer is No.

 

[SkinWalker]

Most of the work that demonstrates the failure of nonsense like intercessory prayer (and other forms) comes from religious nutters that are trying to prove it.

Its continually interesting to see the need for the religious to use science where they can, but quickly dismiss science as not being able to examine religion when it doesn't suit their purposes. If science were able to prove the existence of any of the gods of christianity or their so-called miracles, nearly every religious nutter on the planet would jump at citing the research. But as soon as science says one of the superstitious claims aren't possible, the religious decry science as ineffective with the supernatural.

 

[SnakeLord]

Here is a possible answer for the coin toss prayer that the man missed. Jesus said he would answer our prayers alright, but sometimes the answer is No.

This doesn't stand up to biblical scrutiny:

Matthew 21:22
If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

As long as you believe, the answer wont be "no", you'll get what you want.

Mark 11:24
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

This concurs.

Matthew 18:20
"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

This is the same but now with groups of people. "Anything" you ask for will be done, (the answer wont be no), if two or more people agree.


Simply put: you're wrong.