Challenge from the Learner

[Horseman42]

I think that theists come to atheist forums out of curiosity but, most of all, to convert the rest of us. The likelihood of converting atheists to christians is zilch to none. Religionists won't find much solace here.

I largely agree with you here. I might add though that I would convert back to Christianity in a second if it was rational, reasonable or logical to do so. However Christianity and religion in general is none of those things.

 

[c7ityi_]

Then, can we believe anyone who claims to be a Christian, Catholic or whatever?

Of course we can't. I know what I am, and you know what you are, but no one else knows, except the self, not even if I tell you what I am, they're still mere words. I could be lying, insane, joking, being ignorant, whatever... who knows, except the one who is omniscient?

Only God (we, each indidivual) knows who and what we are. Why believe or disbelive? Remain neutral: sceptic, yet open-minded.

Should we believe you or the Pope?

That's up to you. Believe in yourself. Buddha says that we should accept nothing unless it agrees with our own way of thinking and common sense. You are the way, truth and life (that's what Jesus meant)

 

[c7ityi_]

I think that theists come to atheist forums out of curiosity but, most of all, to convert the rest of us.

I don't think they come here to convert anyone, but to show what they believe in, to express themselves and their thoughts. Whoever agrees with them, agrees with them.

---

Picking sides (like atheist or theist) is the seed of duality (like hate and love). Making a difference between "this" and "that" is what makes the world and yourself visible. The mind is the "creator" of the world. If you would remain neutral, the world would become more and more "invisible", and you would soon be back to the Paradise where there are neither theists or atheists (where small children and animals are)

 

[enton]

I largely agree with you here. I might add though that I would convert back to Christianity in a second if it was rational, reasonable or logical to do so. However Christianity and religion in general is none of those things.

You cannot go back to a place unless you have already been there. Besides the preceding statement is not applicable to christianity, once a christian gives up or once God let him loose, he cannot go back again as a christian. He will simply wait for God's final decision for him.

 

[(Q)]

Of course we can't. I know what I am, and you know what you are, but no one else knows, except the self, not even if I tell you what I am, they're still mere words. I could be lying, insane, joking, being ignorant, whatever... who knows, except the one who is omniscient?

Only God (we, each indidivual) knows who and what we are. Why believe or disbelive? Remain neutral: sceptic, yet open-minded.



That's up to you. Believe in yourself. Buddha says that we should accept nothing unless it agrees with our own way of thinking and common sense. You are the way, truth and life (that's what Jesus meant)

Good post c7ityi!

 

[JeffTheLearner]

Well, it seems no matter what I say, or point out it dont matter to any if you! Have fun, toke it up! Believe in nothing, so that you can fall for everything. You all seem so, very wize, next time when you see an Ignoramus and mislead idiot like you think me to be, ask your self “Why is everyone I know who is open minded, think exactly like me”, and maybe you'll find out that your cattle. As for the Great Interpreter of “Natural Selection”, you think your denoting "Chance" I laugh at you, your so smart but yet you don’t even notice, you don’t even have the mental tools available to even read between the lines of your very own words. So with pride you all reject your Creator, you lie about His people, you take His Word out of context, and you believe in the most detested of things. I take back my blessing upon you who will always reject Him, and while in judgment, dont ever say that no one did not try to reach you at your level. Your reject Truth you despise Truth and most of you just hate the fact the somebody is telling you what to do, the funny thing is your still cattle and you fear death, I dont. ------- Istill care that’s why I'm wore out and frustrated with most of you.

 

[KennyJC]

JeffTheLearner: You sound like the typical american stereotype to me, and that is why people generally make fun of the yanks (in Europe anyway).

Like it or not, what you just typed fits the description of an "Extremeist". The last laugh is with the athiest/agnostic who hasn't spent their one shot at life quoting the bible and having faith in something that was in the end, a waste of time. I just regret that in the end, when you die you won't get to see that you wasted your life.

 

[Lawdog]

Hello,
I'm new here and I signed on because I was google searching and stumbled upon a post and read it and looked at some of the post here and seen and noticed how much zeal many here have that is not positive toward God. I also noticed many here commented in an abstract manner that science is the argument that Christians cannot contend with. Well I here am not a scholar nor smart enough to be working as a higher up in an office somewhere, no I am but a simple and humble machinist and not even a good one, but I do much biblical research and dab a bit into what I believe to be scientific proof that God exist through evidence found through researchers called Creationist. I have also seen and read many scriptures that contain information that pre-dates major information events found, and proved through science. My Challenge is that you tell me why God cannot exist and the scientific evidence that supports it, so you can see if I can not give you a viable argument based on scientific evidence in reply that proves God exist.

-I will make clear now that my responses could take up to two weeks, because I'm busy and also unable to immediately pull up the information needed for myself.
-&My point: is to prove that God exist, and to show that Christians (The type that read the Word and believe) can have good arguments, which should be taken into consideration in the field of scientific research.

My good friend, I could not help but laughing when I read your post, giving thanks to God, but I fear that they have heard it all before, and even the most subtle of arguments from the most sublime of philosophers and scientists will not sway their hard heartedness. Better to stay clear of this evil place and pray to God incessantly, begging him to have mercy upon them before they see the earth opening up to swallow them down.

my friend, I urge you to pray with a devout heart and leave this evil place, since if you are not fortified by special graces their evil tongue shall do harm to thy spirit. Remember, "cast not thy pearls to the swine, lest thy turn and rend ye". Live a simple and blessed christian life and leave these kind to the experienced and trained specialists, (we who are like highly trained prison guards), avoiding the snares they will set for thee, and do not think it shame to avoid this pit, but rather a blessing.

 

[JeffTheLearner]

Thank you for the advice Mr. Lawdog my brother from another mother. I did a little research as to the "mouth of the wicked" and your right, I did not put that into consideration. But The Lord is a sheild to those who put there trust "in" Him. But I taken your advice as a sign. I will listen, and as for some of these people... (Pro 17:4); "An evildoer listens to wicked lips, and a liar gives ear to a mischievous tongue."

 

[Raithere]

I must agree with Lawdog, Jeff. Stick to praying and living a 'good' Christian life.

I'm sorry that you feel so beset upon but you really should know what you're talking about before you come to a science oriented forum and attempt to 'correct' everyone about science. The fact of the matter is that you don't. We're not ignorant, nor are we idiots, nor are we the 'evil doers' you presume us to be. There's nothing malicious in most of what you see, we simply disagree with your position for what we feel are good reasons. The arguments and 'evidence' you present are not new to us. We've examined them before and found them wanting. It really is that simple.

You are certainly welcome to stay. Just don't expect an easy ride if you continue to try and argue a creationist position. In any case, I wish you well.

~Raithere

 

[(Q)]

So with pride you all reject your Creator

Not really, we reject your interpretation of how the universe came to be. We reject it on the grounds that it has no basis in reality and that it contradicts the mountains of evidence that suggests the universe came to be in an entirely different way.

I take back my blessing upon you

That's fine, I don't need blessings, they don't mean anything other than ones comtemptual air of superiority over another, which is exactly what you're exhibiting.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Jeff,

Sorry to hear you're leaving and I am truly sorry we've failed to help someone understand the difference between reality and fantasy.

 

[qÆ'_Ðœ]

Jeff,

Sorry to hear you're leaving and I am truly sorry we've failed to help someone understand the difference between reality and fantasy.

Your point of view?

 

[geeser]

but the true point of view.

 

[SnakeLord]

Before you leave Jeff, I would like to quickly quote a passage in the bible that might just help you understand why your task here of converting people to christianity has been such a total and utter failure. I don't know whether you've ever read the bible, or how seriously you take it - but I personally take the bible at it's word. When god says something, god said it.. and so, I do feel that this passage has relevance to you and your life, and to atheists and their life:

2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

I'm sure, as a christian, you can understand the passage that I have quoted here, and certainly can ascertain the worth of this quote to your failure of converting anyone. However, if your reading ability is as bad as your understanding of science, I feel I must explain it in layman terms to aid any future discussions you might engage in.

In short it is stating that the god you believe in and worship has blinded atheists from seeing the truth of the bible, the words jesus said, the truth of the lord. As a result of this, unless god specifically decides to turn an atheist into a believer, that atheist is stuck forever as an atheist by no fault of his own. He cannot under any circumstances accept or believe a word you say concerning the being you believe in, and regardless to what you say that will never change. Ever.

As a result of that it stands that all atheists will taste fire and brimstone on the basis that your god wants them to. Only he can change them from being blind to having the ability to see, and that is why you shall always fail, no matter how much heart you put into it. It might seem sad to you given that you have certainly tried so hard, (even stooping to the pretence of thinking you can undermine decades of science with the aid of one badly written creationist website), but it is a rule laid down by the god you believe in, the god you worship. Why try and undermine his work at the same time? As a believer, a worshipper, you must acknowledge and accept the futility of everything you have done here? Given that, I can only ask why you even bothered in the first place. Forgive me for saying it, but it most certainly seems stupid given the biblical god-quote I have pasted.

Perhaps you have never taken the time to read the bible, but then I can only say you are doing god a dis-service by not taking the time to read, and indeed memorize, the details of life that god has taken the time to inform you of.

I would advise that for the rest of your life you leave atheists well alone. You will accomplish nothing, so sayeth god, and only portray your ignorance of the bible which doesn't come across as a good thing for someone who professes belief in the 'writer' of that book.

Kindest regards.

 

[Oli]

We are not to suppose that any truth concerning the Natural World can be an Enemy to Religion; for Truth cannot be an Enemy to Truth, God is not divided against himself; and therefore we ought not upon that account to condemn or censure what we have not examin’d or cannot disprove; as those that are of this narrow Spirit we are speaking of, are very apt to do. Let every thing be tri’d and examin’d in the first place, whether it be True or False; and if it be found false, ’tis then to be consider’d, whether it be such a falsity as is prejudicial to Religion or no.

The Sacred Theory of the Earth by Thomas Burnet
Ever considered trying and examining? Other than the single book you use as a source?

When god says something, god said it

If true, but how do you know god said it?

 

[SnakeLord]

If true, but how do you know god said it?

Because the bible said so.. And that is seemingly good enough for the world's christians. As it is good enough for christians, the only plausible conclusion, (for them), is that god said the passage I quoted. They know this because it says: "god said". As 'god said' that he has blinded the minds of unbelievers, it follows that atheists will all burn for eternity on the basis that god does not want them to be believers.

 

[Oli]

So you know the book is true because the book says it's true? Or you know the book is true because millions of people with no evidence other than that book believe it to be true?
I particularly like

it follows that atheists will all burn for eternity on the basis that god does not want them to be believers

So god decides he doesn't want certain members of the population to believe in him just so that he can see us burn? Man, I thought I displayed sadistic tendencies sometimes, but deliberatley setting somebody up to burn for eternity... I'm not sure I'd like your god if I ever met him. Cetainly wouldn't buy him a pint. WTF happened to forgiveness?? Don't tell me, he decided that's a no-no as well 'cause he wants to see us burn. Bring it on

 

[SnakeLord]

So you know the book is true because the book says it's true?

No. A christian knows the book is true because the book says it's true.

Or you know the book is true because millions of people with no evidence other than that book believe it to be true?

This is sometimes used as an argument, but it is of no consequence because in general a christian will happily rely on the first quote you made.

So god decides he doesn't want certain members of the population to believe in him just so that he can see us burn?

So sayeth the bible, and if you were to believe that the god of the bible exists and that said god also stated that which features in said bible, then we could conclude that god decides who believes and who doesn't, and who goes to hell and who doesn't - while at the very same time trying to threaten people into belief while knowing full well that there's no possible way they could believe unless he made it so. It's quite dumb really.

Man, I thought I displayed sadistic tendencies sometimes

We all do sometimes - for we are made in the image of god. Of course we can rarely achieve his level of psychopathic excellence. Hitler tried his hardest - and laid slaughter to several million jews. Even then, after all that sweat and effort, he didn't manage to get a kill count even remotely close to god's jew killing escapades.

but deliberatley setting somebody up to burn for eternity... I'm not sure I'd like your god if I ever met him.

It might be worth pointing out right about now that I am an atheist. I do not have a god. I have a pet dog if that counts, but I am not one for sky fairies, and nor have I ever been.

Cetainly wouldn't buy him a pint. WTF happened to forgiveness??

I would. If you'd like to know why I would, look at your second sentence. You see, that is what puts me above god.

 

[Oli]

Ah, head games. Apologies for my relative inexperience He might be a best-selling author but I still wouldn't buy the guy a pint, my forgiveness has limits, far wider than my sadistic tendencies I'll admit, but the limits are there. I'd just seen another of your posts where you said you were atheist and was about to PM you. Give me time, I'll learn or leave - wouldn't want to be too much of drag.
Okay, but I still can't go with the circular reasoning, my head has a tendency to explode.