Challenge from the Learner
- Thread starter JeffTheLearner
- Start date
It is precisely the generality of the calculation that makes it so inaccurate. Yes, idealistically, living creatures reproduce at a geometric rate. However, even the most superficial of real-world observations demonstrates that this is not is not, in fact, accurate. That Biblical literalists deliberately ignore such a basic fact in their futile attempts to deny a world older than 6 - 12 thousand years merely demonstrates how bankrupt their position really is.JeffTheLearner said:
There is nothing constant about 200 million it's merely a point that the human population did not pass until relatively recently. The population generally increased until this time as humanity migrated across the globe. Unable to sustain larger populations within small regions the solution was to spread out. It was only the advent of a reliable agriculture that allowed for an increase in our capacity to support a larger local population. The invention of science and medicine further increased this capacity.
There's evidence there for many theories. To which would you be referring?
Technology allows us, not necessarily to work less, but to distribute labor differently. No longer are we generally hunter gatherers or subsistence level farmers where most, if not all, human labor must be directed towards feeding the population. Instead we are able to diversify our labor. This has allowed the further development of art, music, philosophy, science, even religion. In regions of naturally abundant food people do indeed need to work less, even if simply and without technological advances. They must, however, find some means (typically social) of capping their population.
Actually, yes, it does. More people have enough or even more than enough to eat both in calories and nutrition than ever before possible.
Actually, the difference is tremendous. In countries where treatment is readily available it is astounding.
There's nothing odd about it. The first and single most important factor in reducing disease is the proper handling and availability of clean water. Proper handling of waste is a primary factor here and was invented prior even to the germ theory of disease.
Why get mired in fantasy? We have reliable historical accounts of population sizes. You're suggesting we let the hypothesis supercede the data, this is simply stupid. If you're hypothesis calculates that it should be night-time when the sun is clearly in the sky then it's your hypothesis that needs to change, not the fact that the sun is in the sky. Do assert otherwise is to be delusional.
It's quite obvious from your posts that you are completely wrapped up in authoritative arguments.
Examine things for yourself and stop letting others do you thinking, whether they be scientists, politicians, or priests. It doesn't matter if it's Einstein or the Pope, to relinquish your right to decide for yourself makes you a slave more completely than any whip or chain ever could.
~Raithere
JeffTheLearner
Registered Senior Member
Creation Evidence:
Well, as is my custom in this forum, hence; (Psalm 56:10-11);”In God’s Word I praise, in the Lord’s Word I praise. In God I have put my trust, I shall not be afraid.”
Now I would first like to point out what the Living God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, said in (Is 45:12);”It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it. I stretched out the heavens with My hands, and I ordained all their host.” Do you think this is just a boast? (Num 23:19); “God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man that He should repent; Has He said and, will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good.” So what should we ask to prove that He “created”? (Job 12:7-10); “But now ask the beast, and let them teach you, and the birds of the heavens, and let them tell you. Or speak to the earth, and let it teach you, and let the fish of the sea declare to you. Who among all these does not know that the Hand of the Lord has done this, in whose Hand is the life of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.” So according to the Words within the book of Job it says that we must ask the beast, the birds, the earth, and the fish. Now as some of you are mocking me by demanding a verbal deposition from your cat, or dog as to where it came from, I would like to remind you that they are not made in the image of God and unable to give you an intelligible verbal response. But there are other ways of asking which if you didn’t know, God supports the field of scientific research as a matter of fact He demands it. So lets ask the beast, birds, earth, and fish, who made you?
-Lets start with the beast;
The Gecko: Beside its ability to change the color of its skin according to its surroundings and regenerate a new tail, we will focus on something different. Geckos are pretty cool little creatures, when I lived in Maui I enjoyed observing them. Now besides its other abilities the Gecko can walk on surfaces upside down, sideways, etcetera, and on whatever surface they choose whether it be smooth, or ruff, and unlike the old Batman shows they use no suction devices, or glue like substances for that matter. Nope, hair and not just normal hairs, microscopic hairs on their toes. These hairs attach to molecules by a force referred to as “Van der Waals force” which is quite awesome, by calculation one million of these toe hairs, or setae which would cover a dime could support the weight of a 45 pound monkey, dog it don’t matter.
The Beaver: There is much information as to the physical, and natural engineering capabilities of this creature, but I will only mention one point. That throughout the whole world, many hydroelectric dams base their designs on the same 45-degree angle of damns beavers construct.
The Bat: Well is clear that information on the bat, is quite vast on the Internet. I will just make mention of its complex sonar abilities and you can do the research. Also the heat detection of the rattlesnake would be interesting to look up as well.
-The birds:
The Cuckoo: Well I’m trying to keep this short but notice how this bird spies out nest of other birds as they lay their eggs, and then lays its own egg in that other birds nest after ejecting one of its eggs, when the new cuckoo bird is born being raised by parents of a different type, and never being raised or known by its own mother, yet this bird will grow up to do the very same thing its mother did with its young.
The Humming bird: Well, the awesome precision of this greatly engineered creature baffles evolutionist, as to the information, it too is vast on the Internet. Focus points, its flying abilities, heartbeat, its food, its temperature and conservation of energy, and stamina.
The Woodpecker: Focus points: sense of smell, the length of its tongue, how the long tongue is placed around its brain, the cushioning between its beak and skull, and its gripping and balancing abilities.
-The fish:
The South American, and African electric fish: Two different type of fish found on different sides of the world, have awesome abilities to see in the darkest of waters but not with there eyes. By generating an electrostatic field in surrounding dark waters these two creatures detect other sea creatures by measuring the alterations of their electrostatic field in the water from the presence of their bodies. These are just some of many sea creatures that use bioelectrical attributes, which proves there is something more than just a master electrical engineer involved in their existence.
Gray Sea Slugs: Out of all creatures this one swipes the abilities of another and uses it as there defensive and attack systems. The sea anemones, animals that look like plants. They have tentacles on their sides that have sharp poison stinging arrows that they can fire at pray and enemies which most avoid, but the gray-sea-slug rips these sea anemones apart and eats them without setting off the poison arrows in the stomach, but what happens is that these volatile arrows of poison with its cartages are loaded into small tubes extended from the slugs stomach through its body. When an enemy approaches the slug, it will shoot these arrows as a very effective attack mechanism.
-Construct mechanisms: (Psalm 139:13-14); “For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb. I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made, wonderful are Your works, and my soul knows it very well.”
The human brain: The most awesome, and complex network in the known Universe is contained within that block of wood you call a head commonly referred to as a brain and if you got one, “it’s pretty cool dude!” Anyway, There are billions of neurons in the brain connected to other neurons in awesome arrays of interconnections. Dendrites “tiny fibers” which more than 40 thousand of these connect to those neurons, allowing instantaneous transportation of messages throughout your brain. More than one quadrillion intricate electrical connections “synapses” found within the brain, is just part of what makes the most complex system discovered in the Universe. Research on the calculative abilities of the brain are available on the web.
The eye: When you were baby within your mothers womb, the genetic DNA code governing the formation of your eyes began growing optic nerves simultaneously both from the optic center of your brain, and also from the eye, then a million microscopic optic nerves begin growing from the eye through your flesh in the optical area of your brain, at the same time, a million optic nerves having a protective covering similar to a fiber-optic cable, begins to grow through the flesh towards your developing eye. Each of these million optic nerves must find and match up to its exact counter part to make your sight function without flaw. It’s the equivalent of two million engineers, digging one million half-mile tunnels about the size of a human under a river and all of them precisely meeting at its intended tunnel mate, and all this is done within a specific amount of time.
The “simple cell”: The very thought of a cell being referred to by many scholars of reputable positions as “simple” is quite laughable. It kind of reminds me of a hillbilly, when referring to a new paintjob on his automobile, and then busts out a paintbrush and a can of red simi-gloss house paint. In 1963 scientists penetrated the interior of the cellular wall, uncovering a massive microscopic universe, consisting of awesome mazes of microscopic tubes, and super tiny cells within cells. As to its duties, controlling the entry and exit of thousands of chemicals, enzymes, and proteins, and its functions controlling energy generation, defending against biological invaders, and highly complex communicative actions within and without the cell, the identification and consumption of nutritional products internally and externally, the elimination and disposal of destructive toxins, and the transportation systems that carry the needed products externally and internally to sustain life functions, all this is far from “simple” even if we were to upgrade the definition of “simple” to the development of a top of the line computer processor.
The Earth, (seeing that the existence of earth is reliable on the makeup of the entire universe, information will be provided of the universe as well.):
Universal expansion; Well I’ll start out in this, with many scriptures even though I understand that many of you are nether Judean, or Christians still the claims and information are very interesting. (Job 9:8); “…who alone stretches out the heavens, and tramples down the waves of the sea.”, (Psa 104:2); “ …Covering Yourself with light as with a cloak, stretching out the heaven like a curtain.”, (Isa 40:22); “It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.” (Isa 42:5), “Thus says God the Lord, who created the heavens, and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and its offspring, who gives breath to the people on it and spirit to those who walk in it.”, (Isa 44:24-25); “thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, ‘I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone, causing the omens of boasters to fail, making fools out of diviners, causing wise men to draw back, and turning their knowledge into foolishness.’”, (Isa 45:12); “It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it. I stretched out the heavens with My hands and I ordained all their host.”, (Jer 10:12); “It is He who made the earth by His power, who established the world by His wisdom, and by His understanding He has stretched out the heavens.”, (Zec 12:1); “The burden of the Word of the Lord concerning Israel. Thus declared the Lord who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him…”. Well there is no need for extensive information concerning the stretching out of the Universe just by simple observation and calculating, through the tools we have today makes this far from an impossibility to notice that galaxies are moving at extreme velocities from our galaxy, and at even more extreme velocities from surrounding galaxies. What does this have to do with the earth? The precise force of gravity to cause matter to merge together to construct galaxies and stars, while the expansion of space is causing the Universe to continue to grow in size and not cave in upon itself is obviously a very intricate one showing mindlessness has nothing to do with it. If the expansion force and speed were even slightly stronger, no stars or galaxies would be capable to become stable, and our solar system would not exist. If the expansion speed was even slightly weaker, the Universe will collapse upon itself.
Earths distance from the sun; The Earth is 93 million miles from the Sun. This distance is exactly what is required to allow biological life to subsist on Earth. If the earth was a little too far from or too close to the Sun, the earth would be a waist land whether because of extreme heat, or cold, just think of the great temperature difference between lower Canada, and Lower south America, or Russia to lower Africa. Note the rotation of earth also has its visible implications of the sustaining of life.
Earths circular orbit; The orbit of the Earth, unlike the other planets within are universe which orbit in a elliptical orbit, the Earth orbits in a consistent circular motion of 93 million miles from the sun.
Earths magnetic field and the human body; The electrical communication between every one of the sixty trillion cells in our body depends on the Earths magnetic field. In other words if the magnetic field was not what it is today, the communication system among your cells would cease.
-Other things to look into: the design of water, the size of the Sun and Earth, Earths rotation speed, the 23 degree inclination of the Earth, the balance of Gases in the Earths atmosphere, the impossibilities of carbon in creation, the granite layer in the earths crust, the weight of oxygen and why it travels and sustains, “simple proteins” containing complex genetic code, DNA and its construct and production, human hands and feet, the complex human digestive system, the complexities of the cardiovascular system, bone structures. Just search anything and everything, design is overwhelmingly apparent and for design you need a Designer.
-Now as to the Genesis account of creation, you may attempt to deny its authority, but one thing you can not deny is the accuracy, and pre-understanding of its order of events need to occur to sustain the next event of creation.
To quickly put into perspective I will paraphrase the account. Note: the scripture is pure and better understanding comes for it than I.
The first day; God created the universe, a formless and void Earth, and separated light from darkness (which is spiritual in understanding), but don’t not forsake that God is Light thus His brightness sustained life after this point, because He established that he was light on this day. Note: (Rev 21:23); “ …And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp the Lamb.”, also God made mention of His measurements of days. (2Peter 3:8); But do not let this one escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.”
The second day; God created an atmosphere, and a rain system, which at that time before the flood was a mist. (Gen 2:6) “but a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground.”
The third day; God created dry land upon the earth, and gathered the waters making larger body of waters and called them seas. (Jer 5:22); “ Do you not fear Me? Declares the Lord. ‘Do you not tremble in My presence? For I have placed the sand as a boundary for the sea, An eternal decree, so it cannot cross over it. Though the waves toss, yet they cannot prevail; though they roar, yet they cannot cross over it.” Then God made various plants, with sustenance and seed.
The forth day; God created the Sun and Moon and stars for signs seasons and days, establishing the days, and years for something else that was going to be placed on earth, and not Himself. Also made lights different from His own establishing dominion created by Him for others.
The fifth day; God created the sea life, and then the winged creatures and told them to be fruitful, and multiply.
The sixth day, God made reptiles, mammals, and insects. Then God made man ON THIS DAY, made him in His image and gave him rule over all creatures of earth, and told man to concur the whole earth.
The seventh day, God blessed this day, cleansed and made it holy, because He rested from His work. Note: the genesis account also accounts for everything created in the universe, nothing more, nothing less, as for the details of his creation I think the reference in John should suffice (John 21:25) “and there are also many other things which Yeshua did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.”
So to part of my point, all of this inconceivable creative ability, unimaginable engineering, and awesome complexities which are better described by man then to even start to understand. Do you attribute this all to “Chance?” so if “Chance” far exceeds the collective abilities of man by accident, is not “Chance” more than able to contain within it all of the same abilities as you and much more. Are you not just bending a knee to “Chance” and saying; “you are my god!” and at the same time not acknowledging its wisdom, which accidentally far exceeds yours. You say there is no god, but even within your own hypocrisies you acknowledge one, and the funny thing is, that you people don’t even realize it.
And now to my final point, which is not mine; Yeshua (Jesus) said; “I’m the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one comes to the Father but through me.”
P.S. His never ending loving kindness, and mercy endures forever and ever. May the One who blessed me, bless you even more so. So be it –“amen”
Well, as is my custom in this forum, hence; (Psalm 56:10-11);”In God’s Word I praise, in the Lord’s Word I praise. In God I have put my trust, I shall not be afraid.”
Now I would first like to point out what the Living God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, said in (Is 45:12);”It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it. I stretched out the heavens with My hands, and I ordained all their host.” Do you think this is just a boast? (Num 23:19); “God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man that He should repent; Has He said and, will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good.” So what should we ask to prove that He “created”? (Job 12:7-10); “But now ask the beast, and let them teach you, and the birds of the heavens, and let them tell you. Or speak to the earth, and let it teach you, and let the fish of the sea declare to you. Who among all these does not know that the Hand of the Lord has done this, in whose Hand is the life of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.” So according to the Words within the book of Job it says that we must ask the beast, the birds, the earth, and the fish. Now as some of you are mocking me by demanding a verbal deposition from your cat, or dog as to where it came from, I would like to remind you that they are not made in the image of God and unable to give you an intelligible verbal response. But there are other ways of asking which if you didn’t know, God supports the field of scientific research as a matter of fact He demands it. So lets ask the beast, birds, earth, and fish, who made you?
-Lets start with the beast;
The Gecko: Beside its ability to change the color of its skin according to its surroundings and regenerate a new tail, we will focus on something different. Geckos are pretty cool little creatures, when I lived in Maui I enjoyed observing them. Now besides its other abilities the Gecko can walk on surfaces upside down, sideways, etcetera, and on whatever surface they choose whether it be smooth, or ruff, and unlike the old Batman shows they use no suction devices, or glue like substances for that matter. Nope, hair and not just normal hairs, microscopic hairs on their toes. These hairs attach to molecules by a force referred to as “Van der Waals force” which is quite awesome, by calculation one million of these toe hairs, or setae which would cover a dime could support the weight of a 45 pound monkey, dog it don’t matter.
The Beaver: There is much information as to the physical, and natural engineering capabilities of this creature, but I will only mention one point. That throughout the whole world, many hydroelectric dams base their designs on the same 45-degree angle of damns beavers construct.
The Bat: Well is clear that information on the bat, is quite vast on the Internet. I will just make mention of its complex sonar abilities and you can do the research. Also the heat detection of the rattlesnake would be interesting to look up as well.
-The birds:
The Cuckoo: Well I’m trying to keep this short but notice how this bird spies out nest of other birds as they lay their eggs, and then lays its own egg in that other birds nest after ejecting one of its eggs, when the new cuckoo bird is born being raised by parents of a different type, and never being raised or known by its own mother, yet this bird will grow up to do the very same thing its mother did with its young.
The Humming bird: Well, the awesome precision of this greatly engineered creature baffles evolutionist, as to the information, it too is vast on the Internet. Focus points, its flying abilities, heartbeat, its food, its temperature and conservation of energy, and stamina.
The Woodpecker: Focus points: sense of smell, the length of its tongue, how the long tongue is placed around its brain, the cushioning between its beak and skull, and its gripping and balancing abilities.
-The fish:
The South American, and African electric fish: Two different type of fish found on different sides of the world, have awesome abilities to see in the darkest of waters but not with there eyes. By generating an electrostatic field in surrounding dark waters these two creatures detect other sea creatures by measuring the alterations of their electrostatic field in the water from the presence of their bodies. These are just some of many sea creatures that use bioelectrical attributes, which proves there is something more than just a master electrical engineer involved in their existence.
Gray Sea Slugs: Out of all creatures this one swipes the abilities of another and uses it as there defensive and attack systems. The sea anemones, animals that look like plants. They have tentacles on their sides that have sharp poison stinging arrows that they can fire at pray and enemies which most avoid, but the gray-sea-slug rips these sea anemones apart and eats them without setting off the poison arrows in the stomach, but what happens is that these volatile arrows of poison with its cartages are loaded into small tubes extended from the slugs stomach through its body. When an enemy approaches the slug, it will shoot these arrows as a very effective attack mechanism.
-Construct mechanisms: (Psalm 139:13-14); “For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb. I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made, wonderful are Your works, and my soul knows it very well.”
The human brain: The most awesome, and complex network in the known Universe is contained within that block of wood you call a head commonly referred to as a brain and if you got one, “it’s pretty cool dude!” Anyway, There are billions of neurons in the brain connected to other neurons in awesome arrays of interconnections. Dendrites “tiny fibers” which more than 40 thousand of these connect to those neurons, allowing instantaneous transportation of messages throughout your brain. More than one quadrillion intricate electrical connections “synapses” found within the brain, is just part of what makes the most complex system discovered in the Universe. Research on the calculative abilities of the brain are available on the web.
The eye: When you were baby within your mothers womb, the genetic DNA code governing the formation of your eyes began growing optic nerves simultaneously both from the optic center of your brain, and also from the eye, then a million microscopic optic nerves begin growing from the eye through your flesh in the optical area of your brain, at the same time, a million optic nerves having a protective covering similar to a fiber-optic cable, begins to grow through the flesh towards your developing eye. Each of these million optic nerves must find and match up to its exact counter part to make your sight function without flaw. It’s the equivalent of two million engineers, digging one million half-mile tunnels about the size of a human under a river and all of them precisely meeting at its intended tunnel mate, and all this is done within a specific amount of time.
The “simple cell”: The very thought of a cell being referred to by many scholars of reputable positions as “simple” is quite laughable. It kind of reminds me of a hillbilly, when referring to a new paintjob on his automobile, and then busts out a paintbrush and a can of red simi-gloss house paint. In 1963 scientists penetrated the interior of the cellular wall, uncovering a massive microscopic universe, consisting of awesome mazes of microscopic tubes, and super tiny cells within cells. As to its duties, controlling the entry and exit of thousands of chemicals, enzymes, and proteins, and its functions controlling energy generation, defending against biological invaders, and highly complex communicative actions within and without the cell, the identification and consumption of nutritional products internally and externally, the elimination and disposal of destructive toxins, and the transportation systems that carry the needed products externally and internally to sustain life functions, all this is far from “simple” even if we were to upgrade the definition of “simple” to the development of a top of the line computer processor.
The Earth, (seeing that the existence of earth is reliable on the makeup of the entire universe, information will be provided of the universe as well.):
Universal expansion; Well I’ll start out in this, with many scriptures even though I understand that many of you are nether Judean, or Christians still the claims and information are very interesting. (Job 9:8); “…who alone stretches out the heavens, and tramples down the waves of the sea.”, (Psa 104:2); “ …Covering Yourself with light as with a cloak, stretching out the heaven like a curtain.”, (Isa 40:22); “It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.” (Isa 42:5), “Thus says God the Lord, who created the heavens, and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and its offspring, who gives breath to the people on it and spirit to those who walk in it.”, (Isa 44:24-25); “thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, ‘I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone, causing the omens of boasters to fail, making fools out of diviners, causing wise men to draw back, and turning their knowledge into foolishness.’”, (Isa 45:12); “It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it. I stretched out the heavens with My hands and I ordained all their host.”, (Jer 10:12); “It is He who made the earth by His power, who established the world by His wisdom, and by His understanding He has stretched out the heavens.”, (Zec 12:1); “The burden of the Word of the Lord concerning Israel. Thus declared the Lord who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him…”. Well there is no need for extensive information concerning the stretching out of the Universe just by simple observation and calculating, through the tools we have today makes this far from an impossibility to notice that galaxies are moving at extreme velocities from our galaxy, and at even more extreme velocities from surrounding galaxies. What does this have to do with the earth? The precise force of gravity to cause matter to merge together to construct galaxies and stars, while the expansion of space is causing the Universe to continue to grow in size and not cave in upon itself is obviously a very intricate one showing mindlessness has nothing to do with it. If the expansion force and speed were even slightly stronger, no stars or galaxies would be capable to become stable, and our solar system would not exist. If the expansion speed was even slightly weaker, the Universe will collapse upon itself.
Earths distance from the sun; The Earth is 93 million miles from the Sun. This distance is exactly what is required to allow biological life to subsist on Earth. If the earth was a little too far from or too close to the Sun, the earth would be a waist land whether because of extreme heat, or cold, just think of the great temperature difference between lower Canada, and Lower south America, or Russia to lower Africa. Note the rotation of earth also has its visible implications of the sustaining of life.
Earths circular orbit; The orbit of the Earth, unlike the other planets within are universe which orbit in a elliptical orbit, the Earth orbits in a consistent circular motion of 93 million miles from the sun.
Earths magnetic field and the human body; The electrical communication between every one of the sixty trillion cells in our body depends on the Earths magnetic field. In other words if the magnetic field was not what it is today, the communication system among your cells would cease.
-Other things to look into: the design of water, the size of the Sun and Earth, Earths rotation speed, the 23 degree inclination of the Earth, the balance of Gases in the Earths atmosphere, the impossibilities of carbon in creation, the granite layer in the earths crust, the weight of oxygen and why it travels and sustains, “simple proteins” containing complex genetic code, DNA and its construct and production, human hands and feet, the complex human digestive system, the complexities of the cardiovascular system, bone structures. Just search anything and everything, design is overwhelmingly apparent and for design you need a Designer.
-Now as to the Genesis account of creation, you may attempt to deny its authority, but one thing you can not deny is the accuracy, and pre-understanding of its order of events need to occur to sustain the next event of creation.
To quickly put into perspective I will paraphrase the account. Note: the scripture is pure and better understanding comes for it than I.
The first day; God created the universe, a formless and void Earth, and separated light from darkness (which is spiritual in understanding), but don’t not forsake that God is Light thus His brightness sustained life after this point, because He established that he was light on this day. Note: (Rev 21:23); “ …And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp the Lamb.”, also God made mention of His measurements of days. (2Peter 3:8); But do not let this one escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.”
The second day; God created an atmosphere, and a rain system, which at that time before the flood was a mist. (Gen 2:6) “but a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground.”
The third day; God created dry land upon the earth, and gathered the waters making larger body of waters and called them seas. (Jer 5:22); “ Do you not fear Me? Declares the Lord. ‘Do you not tremble in My presence? For I have placed the sand as a boundary for the sea, An eternal decree, so it cannot cross over it. Though the waves toss, yet they cannot prevail; though they roar, yet they cannot cross over it.” Then God made various plants, with sustenance and seed.
The forth day; God created the Sun and Moon and stars for signs seasons and days, establishing the days, and years for something else that was going to be placed on earth, and not Himself. Also made lights different from His own establishing dominion created by Him for others.
The fifth day; God created the sea life, and then the winged creatures and told them to be fruitful, and multiply.
The sixth day, God made reptiles, mammals, and insects. Then God made man ON THIS DAY, made him in His image and gave him rule over all creatures of earth, and told man to concur the whole earth.
The seventh day, God blessed this day, cleansed and made it holy, because He rested from His work. Note: the genesis account also accounts for everything created in the universe, nothing more, nothing less, as for the details of his creation I think the reference in John should suffice (John 21:25) “and there are also many other things which Yeshua did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.”
So to part of my point, all of this inconceivable creative ability, unimaginable engineering, and awesome complexities which are better described by man then to even start to understand. Do you attribute this all to “Chance?” so if “Chance” far exceeds the collective abilities of man by accident, is not “Chance” more than able to contain within it all of the same abilities as you and much more. Are you not just bending a knee to “Chance” and saying; “you are my god!” and at the same time not acknowledging its wisdom, which accidentally far exceeds yours. You say there is no god, but even within your own hypocrisies you acknowledge one, and the funny thing is, that you people don’t even realize it.
And now to my final point, which is not mine; Yeshua (Jesus) said; “I’m the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one comes to the Father but through me.”
P.S. His never ending loving kindness, and mercy endures forever and ever. May the One who blessed me, bless you even more so. So be it –“amen”
JeffTheLearner
Registered Senior Member
-Quick Scriptures pointing out information, & technology of today-
(Dan 12:4) “But as for you, Daniel, conceal these Words, and seal up the Book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, AND KNOWLEDGE WILL INCREASE.”
(2Chron 15:2);”The Lord is with you when you are with Him, and if you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will forsake you.”
_Motor vehicles & transportation;
(Nah 2:4)
The chariots race madly in the streets, They rush wildly in the squares, Their appearance is like torches, They dash to and fro like lightning flashes.
(Exo 19:4) ‘name meaning – Egypt=”double straits” …thus, bondage/slavery’
'You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you to Myself.
_Communications & Satellite;
(Rev 11:5-11)(*Note: instant communications have to be possible for any of this to happen.)
“And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours
their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.
These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the
days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them
into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.
When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up
out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.
And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is
called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. Those from the
peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead
bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid
in a tomb. And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and
they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented
those who dwell on the earth. But after the three and a half days, the breath
of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great
fear fell upon those who were watching them.”
(Zac 5:1-4)
Then I lifted up my eyes again and looked, and behold, a flying scroll.
And he said to me, "What do you see?" And I answered, "I see a flying scroll; its length is twenty cubits and its width ten cubits." (*Note the size of a satellite, it is identical.)
Then he said to me, "This is the curse that is going forth over the face of the
whole land; surely everyone who steals will be purged away according to the
writing on one side, and everyone who swears will be purged away according
to the writing on the other side.
"I will make it go forth," declares the LORD of hosts, "and it will enter the house of the thief and the house of the one who swears falsely by My name; and it will spend the night within that house and consume it with its timber and stones."
_Missiles and Nuclear devastation;
(Isa 3:24-16) –effects of radiation-
Now it will come about that instead of sweet perfume there will be putrefaction;
Instead of a belt, a rope; Instead of well-set hair, a plucked-out scalp;
Instead of fine clothes, a donning of sackcloth; And branding instead of beauty.
Your men will fall by the sword And your mighty ones in battle.
And her gates will lament and mourn, And deserted she will sit on the ground.
(Nah 3:3-4)
Horsemen charging, Swords flashing, spears gleaming, Many slain, a mass
of corpses, And countless dead bodies-- They stumble over the dead bodies!
because of the many harlotries of the harlot, The charming one, the mistress of
sorceries, Who sells nations by her harlotries And families by her sorceries.
(DSS 1QH +4Q432 Frag.3 Col.10) Titled –Thanks to God for protection-
…mighty men have camped against me, they have surrounded me with all their weapons of war. Arrows burst forth without ceasing, and the blade of the spear devours trees as fire. Like the roar of mighty waters in the uproar of their voice; a cloudburst and a downpour to destroy many. As catapults, wickedness and fraud burst out when their waves pile up. As for me, when my heart melts like water, my soul becomes strong in Your covenant.
(DSS 1QH +4Q432 Frag.3 Col.11) Titled –Thanks to God for deliverance from the torments of enemies-;
When all the traps of the pit open, and all the wicked snares and the net of the wretched ones are sperad out on the water when all the arrows of the pit fly off without returning and burst forth without hope,
(it goes on) … then the torrents of Belial shall go over all the high banks, like a fire that devoured all their channels, so as to destroy every green tree and dry tree alongside their tributaries. It spreads with sparks from the flames, until all that drink from them are gone. It devours the cliffs of clay and the plains; the foundations of the mountains are set to burning and the roots of flint become torrents of pitch. I devours right down to the great deep.
(Dan 12:4) “But as for you, Daniel, conceal these Words, and seal up the Book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, AND KNOWLEDGE WILL INCREASE.”
(2Chron 15:2);”The Lord is with you when you are with Him, and if you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will forsake you.”
_Motor vehicles & transportation;
(Nah 2:4)
The chariots race madly in the streets, They rush wildly in the squares, Their appearance is like torches, They dash to and fro like lightning flashes.
(Exo 19:4) ‘name meaning – Egypt=”double straits” …thus, bondage/slavery’
'You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you to Myself.
_Communications & Satellite;
(Rev 11:5-11)(*Note: instant communications have to be possible for any of this to happen.)
“And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours
their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.
These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the
days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them
into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.
When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up
out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.
And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is
called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. Those from the
peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead
bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid
in a tomb. And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and
they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented
those who dwell on the earth. But after the three and a half days, the breath
of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great
fear fell upon those who were watching them.”
(Zac 5:1-4)
Then I lifted up my eyes again and looked, and behold, a flying scroll.
And he said to me, "What do you see?" And I answered, "I see a flying scroll; its length is twenty cubits and its width ten cubits." (*Note the size of a satellite, it is identical.)
Then he said to me, "This is the curse that is going forth over the face of the
whole land; surely everyone who steals will be purged away according to the
writing on one side, and everyone who swears will be purged away according
to the writing on the other side.
"I will make it go forth," declares the LORD of hosts, "and it will enter the house of the thief and the house of the one who swears falsely by My name; and it will spend the night within that house and consume it with its timber and stones."
_Missiles and Nuclear devastation;
(Isa 3:24-16) –effects of radiation-
Now it will come about that instead of sweet perfume there will be putrefaction;
Instead of a belt, a rope; Instead of well-set hair, a plucked-out scalp;
Instead of fine clothes, a donning of sackcloth; And branding instead of beauty.
Your men will fall by the sword And your mighty ones in battle.
And her gates will lament and mourn, And deserted she will sit on the ground.
(Nah 3:3-4)
Horsemen charging, Swords flashing, spears gleaming, Many slain, a mass
of corpses, And countless dead bodies-- They stumble over the dead bodies!
because of the many harlotries of the harlot, The charming one, the mistress of
sorceries, Who sells nations by her harlotries And families by her sorceries.
(DSS 1QH +4Q432 Frag.3 Col.10) Titled –Thanks to God for protection-
…mighty men have camped against me, they have surrounded me with all their weapons of war. Arrows burst forth without ceasing, and the blade of the spear devours trees as fire. Like the roar of mighty waters in the uproar of their voice; a cloudburst and a downpour to destroy many. As catapults, wickedness and fraud burst out when their waves pile up. As for me, when my heart melts like water, my soul becomes strong in Your covenant.
(DSS 1QH +4Q432 Frag.3 Col.11) Titled –Thanks to God for deliverance from the torments of enemies-;
When all the traps of the pit open, and all the wicked snares and the net of the wretched ones are sperad out on the water when all the arrows of the pit fly off without returning and burst forth without hope,
(it goes on) … then the torrents of Belial shall go over all the high banks, like a fire that devoured all their channels, so as to destroy every green tree and dry tree alongside their tributaries. It spreads with sparks from the flames, until all that drink from them are gone. It devours the cliffs of clay and the plains; the foundations of the mountains are set to burning and the roots of flint become torrents of pitch. I devours right down to the great deep.
JeffTheLearner
Registered Senior Member
Personal Comments:
As for the personal comments directed at me, this is for them and you know who you are. Now there are some who think I’m narrow minded, desiring the acceptance of my peers, looking for a place to fit, and I’m just a stupid mislead idiot, or maybe they think in a more sympathetic manner that I’m just a pushover gullible fool. But seeing that we are in opposition of one another in debate couldn’t I say the same thing about you? Or if someone with opinions differing from us who are in opposition, could that someone say the same about us both? First of all I once was an active atheist as for other things, people hate and despise me more, as among peers within houses of prayer “church” I’m an outcast, and when it comes to relating with others, I don’t, whether I’m not pretty, cool, or rich enough, I don’t know. Believers, even non-believers revile me more so, because I practice the Sabbath sun down Friday to sun down Saturday. And to those who think I have a “holier then thou” attitude I don’t, especially if you knew of my recent acts of misbehavior, in the eyes of family and co-workers I seem like a saint, but under Gods standard I’m a hypocrite and a filthy slime bag. But there is one thing I do know for sure, that there is a complete deliverance from sin and it is found in Yeshua the Anointed. But if you insist on thinking I’m just another mislead fool looking for acceptance, Oh-well! (1Cor 1:18);” For the Word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” Now don’t get me wrong, I understand why you would think that way about Christians there are many fakes among us, and also many mislead. Also I use to think that way myself, and I found out that everyone thinks like that toward Christians, especially when I became one, but do I cease from thinking that myself, it depends. There are many Christians who don’t read the Word, and some wont go any farther than two or three scriptures a week and making sure they attend church at least once in that week, they get a little pep talk of stuff they want to hear and happily go home willfully deceived. I tell you they have a strong unwavering faith, a steadfast and admirable faith in preachers, which in many cases the word “Christian” is no longer applicable, they should be addressed as “Preacherians”. And as to many here, who I could say the same, that students worship there professors, and professors worship there past professors which in turn, many are like cattle being lead by cattle, blindly praising chance and its monkey. Now I’m not going into how preachers learn from many books in seminary, or bible schools which in most cases are about the Bible, but not quite from the bible itself. (Is 29:18-19); On that day the deaf will hear the Words of a Book, and out of gloom and darkness the eyes of the blind will see. The afflicted also will increase their gladness in the Lord, and the needy of mankind will rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.”
As for the Preachers of today I don’t know but in Scripture it warns:
(Is 3:12); ” …O My people! Those who guide you lead astray, and confuse the direction of your paths.”, (Is 5:13); ” …Therefore My people go into exile for their lack of knowledge, and their glory are men of famine.”, (Is 9:16); “For those who guide this people are leading astray.”, (Mat 7:15); “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves”. But there is One Teacher who truly teaches, Yeshua said in (John 13:13-14); “ You call Me Teacher and Lord and you say well, for so I am. If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet.” Later He says in, (John 14:26); “ …But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My Name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance ALL THAT I SAID TO YOU.”
Now as to the Universalism I noticed among this forum. I include these scriptures to exclude The Word of the Living God in this way of thought. Now pay attention; Yeshua says in (John 15:1); “I am the true Vine, and My Father is the Vine Dresser.” To understand this you must understand who Yeshua is, it says in (John 1:14); “ And THE WORD BECAME FLEASH, and DWELT AMONG US, and WE SAW His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.” Later it says in (John 1:18); “No one has seen God at any time, the ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD, who is in THE BOSOM of the FATHER, He has EXPLAINED.” The Greek meaning for the word “only begotten” actually should read “only generated” which in “Strongs notes” describes as, “single of its kind.” Understand that the First of creation was Word, God’s Word, and the Father sees the everlasting existence of His Living Word as His Son; (Rev 3:14); “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD, says this,.” Take note what Yeshua said in (John 6:45); “It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and LEARNED from the Father, COMES TO ME.” Note Yeshua says (John 14:6); “I am the Way, and the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father but through Me.” Now look at the first scripture where Yeshua said in (John 15:1); “I am the true Vine, and My Father is the Vine Dresser.” Think in this context, which is not scripture “I am the True creation, and result of the Dressers actions, And the Dresser is the Maker and Decorator of the existing Vine.” So when Yeshua says in (Mark 12:29); “ …The foremost is HEAR, O Israel! The Lord our God IS ONE LORD.” Also it says in (James 2:19); “You believe that GOD IS ONE. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.” It reveals that God is One, and maybe if One opens your eyes you will now understand why the death and resurrection is necessary, and what He did. Note (John 17:8); “…for the Words which You GAVE ME I have GIVEN TO THEM.” And for greater understanding into this if you wish, I would read the whole Chapter of (John 17).
As for the thinking that the Universe is God, do not be deceived it clearly says in scripture in (1Ki 8:27); ” But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven CANNOT CONTAIN YOU, how much less this house which I have built!” and, (2Ch 2:6); “But who is able to build a house for Him, for the heavens and the highest heavens CANNOT CONTAIN HIM? So who am I, that I should build a house for Him, except to burn before Him?” If the Universe cannot even contain Him how can He be the Universe, the scripture speaks for Him self. But if you insist on believing that God is the universe, do what Hindu’s do, worship anything and everything, not focusing on the variations of Hinduism which involves a confusing array of aviators, but the main “Philosophy”, to them is that god is the universe and, everything in it and if you were to worship anything, thus you are worshiping god. Also as to the comments as to why not attribute things to that chubby little “idol” while I rub the image of a tummy, that too does not have anything to do with attributing anything to any god, but that as well is another “philosophy” just like Taoism and Confucianism. As for aliens, if anyone is trying to prove the existence of a very sophisticatedly engineered human being, by something more sophisticated and intelligent, being brewed up in the same manner. You increase your odds of impossibility, in endless circles of “Who created them?” thus the answer would be, “Must be by something more intelligent then they”, and “Who created them?” and so on. As to the capabilities of science you need resources to even attempt to create anything as for biological, even the smallest of components need to be in agreement. When science can construct a working atom and all the sophisticated components of its makeup out of thin air, then I’ll be amazed. If you think that it is too hard to create an atom, your thinking is wrong. If I was to say a banana and you think that’s easier, a banana consist of multiple atoms, and many other complex difficulties that is of its makeup. As for the Einstein comments I put those comments up there because I thought you would care. And to the ones that make no since as to why I put them up, I just simply looked at what category most likely would have been the most personal, skimming through the first one in that category and posted all of them up. But maybe in this point I may have gone about it wrong, but those quotes wolfy posted from that one book, sounded to me like Einstein had a gun to his head when he stated them. I don’t know, if my mother was to call me and she spoke to me in a different voice that matches hers in no way, all she would have to do is say a small paragraph worth and I would sense it was her, even a letter written in different handwriting would provoke the same inclinations.
P.S. –def: Strawman; (according to this forum), Any believer in God, who is classified under Creationist, who objects to anything in any way, shape or form, who if was to so much as speak, move, or breathe, would automatically be classified as a disillusioned crack head, on PCP, and acid in the process of a hangover from a month long alcohol binge.
As for the personal comments directed at me, this is for them and you know who you are. Now there are some who think I’m narrow minded, desiring the acceptance of my peers, looking for a place to fit, and I’m just a stupid mislead idiot, or maybe they think in a more sympathetic manner that I’m just a pushover gullible fool. But seeing that we are in opposition of one another in debate couldn’t I say the same thing about you? Or if someone with opinions differing from us who are in opposition, could that someone say the same about us both? First of all I once was an active atheist as for other things, people hate and despise me more, as among peers within houses of prayer “church” I’m an outcast, and when it comes to relating with others, I don’t, whether I’m not pretty, cool, or rich enough, I don’t know. Believers, even non-believers revile me more so, because I practice the Sabbath sun down Friday to sun down Saturday. And to those who think I have a “holier then thou” attitude I don’t, especially if you knew of my recent acts of misbehavior, in the eyes of family and co-workers I seem like a saint, but under Gods standard I’m a hypocrite and a filthy slime bag. But there is one thing I do know for sure, that there is a complete deliverance from sin and it is found in Yeshua the Anointed. But if you insist on thinking I’m just another mislead fool looking for acceptance, Oh-well! (1Cor 1:18);” For the Word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” Now don’t get me wrong, I understand why you would think that way about Christians there are many fakes among us, and also many mislead. Also I use to think that way myself, and I found out that everyone thinks like that toward Christians, especially when I became one, but do I cease from thinking that myself, it depends. There are many Christians who don’t read the Word, and some wont go any farther than two or three scriptures a week and making sure they attend church at least once in that week, they get a little pep talk of stuff they want to hear and happily go home willfully deceived. I tell you they have a strong unwavering faith, a steadfast and admirable faith in preachers, which in many cases the word “Christian” is no longer applicable, they should be addressed as “Preacherians”. And as to many here, who I could say the same, that students worship there professors, and professors worship there past professors which in turn, many are like cattle being lead by cattle, blindly praising chance and its monkey. Now I’m not going into how preachers learn from many books in seminary, or bible schools which in most cases are about the Bible, but not quite from the bible itself. (Is 29:18-19); On that day the deaf will hear the Words of a Book, and out of gloom and darkness the eyes of the blind will see. The afflicted also will increase their gladness in the Lord, and the needy of mankind will rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.”
As for the Preachers of today I don’t know but in Scripture it warns:
(Is 3:12); ” …O My people! Those who guide you lead astray, and confuse the direction of your paths.”, (Is 5:13); ” …Therefore My people go into exile for their lack of knowledge, and their glory are men of famine.”, (Is 9:16); “For those who guide this people are leading astray.”, (Mat 7:15); “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves”. But there is One Teacher who truly teaches, Yeshua said in (John 13:13-14); “ You call Me Teacher and Lord and you say well, for so I am. If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet.” Later He says in, (John 14:26); “ …But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My Name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance ALL THAT I SAID TO YOU.”
Now as to the Universalism I noticed among this forum. I include these scriptures to exclude The Word of the Living God in this way of thought. Now pay attention; Yeshua says in (John 15:1); “I am the true Vine, and My Father is the Vine Dresser.” To understand this you must understand who Yeshua is, it says in (John 1:14); “ And THE WORD BECAME FLEASH, and DWELT AMONG US, and WE SAW His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.” Later it says in (John 1:18); “No one has seen God at any time, the ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD, who is in THE BOSOM of the FATHER, He has EXPLAINED.” The Greek meaning for the word “only begotten” actually should read “only generated” which in “Strongs notes” describes as, “single of its kind.” Understand that the First of creation was Word, God’s Word, and the Father sees the everlasting existence of His Living Word as His Son; (Rev 3:14); “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD, says this,.” Take note what Yeshua said in (John 6:45); “It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and LEARNED from the Father, COMES TO ME.” Note Yeshua says (John 14:6); “I am the Way, and the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father but through Me.” Now look at the first scripture where Yeshua said in (John 15:1); “I am the true Vine, and My Father is the Vine Dresser.” Think in this context, which is not scripture “I am the True creation, and result of the Dressers actions, And the Dresser is the Maker and Decorator of the existing Vine.” So when Yeshua says in (Mark 12:29); “ …The foremost is HEAR, O Israel! The Lord our God IS ONE LORD.” Also it says in (James 2:19); “You believe that GOD IS ONE. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.” It reveals that God is One, and maybe if One opens your eyes you will now understand why the death and resurrection is necessary, and what He did. Note (John 17:8); “…for the Words which You GAVE ME I have GIVEN TO THEM.” And for greater understanding into this if you wish, I would read the whole Chapter of (John 17).
As for the thinking that the Universe is God, do not be deceived it clearly says in scripture in (1Ki 8:27); ” But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven CANNOT CONTAIN YOU, how much less this house which I have built!” and, (2Ch 2:6); “But who is able to build a house for Him, for the heavens and the highest heavens CANNOT CONTAIN HIM? So who am I, that I should build a house for Him, except to burn before Him?” If the Universe cannot even contain Him how can He be the Universe, the scripture speaks for Him self. But if you insist on believing that God is the universe, do what Hindu’s do, worship anything and everything, not focusing on the variations of Hinduism which involves a confusing array of aviators, but the main “Philosophy”, to them is that god is the universe and, everything in it and if you were to worship anything, thus you are worshiping god. Also as to the comments as to why not attribute things to that chubby little “idol” while I rub the image of a tummy, that too does not have anything to do with attributing anything to any god, but that as well is another “philosophy” just like Taoism and Confucianism. As for aliens, if anyone is trying to prove the existence of a very sophisticatedly engineered human being, by something more sophisticated and intelligent, being brewed up in the same manner. You increase your odds of impossibility, in endless circles of “Who created them?” thus the answer would be, “Must be by something more intelligent then they”, and “Who created them?” and so on. As to the capabilities of science you need resources to even attempt to create anything as for biological, even the smallest of components need to be in agreement. When science can construct a working atom and all the sophisticated components of its makeup out of thin air, then I’ll be amazed. If you think that it is too hard to create an atom, your thinking is wrong. If I was to say a banana and you think that’s easier, a banana consist of multiple atoms, and many other complex difficulties that is of its makeup. As for the Einstein comments I put those comments up there because I thought you would care. And to the ones that make no since as to why I put them up, I just simply looked at what category most likely would have been the most personal, skimming through the first one in that category and posted all of them up. But maybe in this point I may have gone about it wrong, but those quotes wolfy posted from that one book, sounded to me like Einstein had a gun to his head when he stated them. I don’t know, if my mother was to call me and she spoke to me in a different voice that matches hers in no way, all she would have to do is say a small paragraph worth and I would sense it was her, even a letter written in different handwriting would provoke the same inclinations.
P.S. –def: Strawman; (according to this forum), Any believer in God, who is classified under Creationist, who objects to anything in any way, shape or form, who if was to so much as speak, move, or breathe, would automatically be classified as a disillusioned crack head, on PCP, and acid in the process of a hangover from a month long alcohol binge.
JeffTheLearner
Registered Senior Member
Is not evolution a series of mutations developing into some freak like creature? I say that is very much chance. As to me reading a book on evolution, how about you just start off by reading a book.
*************JeffTheLearner said:
M*W: Any relevance you might have wanted to present was swallowed up by your preaching and quoting scripture neither of which will win you any friends here nor will influence us of your credibility. You're a christian. Take your bullshit to a church.
JeffTheLearner
Registered Senior Member
Wow you really hate Christians and God. Read any Mine Comph lately? You know how many Christians and Judeans were put to death under Stalin? They for the most part were atheist that share your hatred.
Horseman42
Registered Senior Member
Jeff,
Sorry I wasn't able to sift through your bible quotes, and countless examples of design. Next time can you please post exactly what you are saying and not try and overwhelm us with information. Yes I get the point that the universe is full of complexity and unimaginable engineering, but this doesn't mean that god exists.
Why? Easy because I can also show you how awesome, complex and infinitly powerful your own god is. If you want proof of this just read the end of Job where god boasts how powerful he is. I would quote the exact sentences but I think we've had enough of quotes for now. Since god is so complex by your own example then there must be a god that created god, and a god for that meta god and so on. Either that or tell me why god gets off the hook here in your countless examples and the universe doesn't?
Sorry I wasn't able to sift through your bible quotes, and countless examples of design. Next time can you please post exactly what you are saying and not try and overwhelm us with information. Yes I get the point that the universe is full of complexity and unimaginable engineering, but this doesn't mean that god exists.
Why? Easy because I can also show you how awesome, complex and infinitly powerful your own god is. If you want proof of this just read the end of Job where god boasts how powerful he is. I would quote the exact sentences but I think we've had enough of quotes for now. Since god is so complex by your own example then there must be a god that created god, and a god for that meta god and so on. Either that or tell me why god gets off the hook here in your countless examples and the universe doesn't?
JeffTheLearner said:
There were over 25 million put to death not because they were christians but because he didn't like those that opposed his views and there were allot of non believers that didn't care for him because they didn't care for his way of taking everything for himself and his cronies.
It really comes down to a belief of what each person thinks they want to believe in. If they want to believe in an invisible god or a golden statue , if it gets them through the day then that's fine with me. But when anyone wants a belief to be made a fact that's where I don't agree with them. To have a science prove that things were developed over millions of years and the facts prove this then to believe that a supernatural power put them here is only a belief and cannot be substantiated by any proven means other than a book and men writing it.
*************JeffTheLearner said:
M*W: No. I don't hate christians, I pity their ignorance. And I don't hate the god you believe in, because he doesn't exist. Without being delusional, it's impossible to hate something that isn't there.
I've read Mein Kampf, but I see you can't even spell it. I also lived in Germany and studied the Holocaust, visited several concentration/work/medical camps, cried all the way through them. I even learned the detailed floor plans of the camps which were very similiar. I've stood in the delousing showers where women and children died, and I've been to towns such as Haar where they stuffed mattresses with Jews' hair and Marburg where they boiled down the fat of the Jews to make baby shampoo. I've been to Mauthausen where they did heinous medical experiments. Today is is a cheerful kinderschule. I've been to Hitler's underground railway system and to his HQs both in Wiesbaden and Birchesgaden. I lived in Hitler's officers' housing in Aukaam. I've been to Dachau. That was emotionally wrenching. I've been to Anne Frank's huis in Amsterdam, and I climbed into the secret annex. That really did me in. And yes, I know how many of his own people Stalin killed. It was more than 50 million.
Being an atheist does not mean one is filled with hatred. In fact, atheists for the most part are immune from that kind of hatred. If anything, being an atheist helps to reconcile some of the hatred and oppression employed by christianity. Had I not been a christian, I would probably not have as much hatred as I do for the establishment and not the people. Christianity is just another name for the HRE, and you are its sheeple. Frankly, I don't hate anyone, because no one is worth my time or energy, but I'll never cease spreading the truth about the biggest lie on Earth. Oh, BTW, been there too, and experienced the evil first-hand. Have you?
JeffTheLearner said:
No, it is not. It's a process of addapation. The environment we live in
changes over time, yielding different challenges to survival. Each new
instance of a life form may have different genetic variation. If a particular
variation promotes survival above and beyond the others then the life form
it is bound to is more likely to reproduce and pass that variation along.
Is not evolution a series of mutations developing into some freak like creature?
In your case, perhaps. But essentially, it is natural selection and diversity and is responsible for all life on this planet.
I say that is very much chance.
Yes, but of course, you have no idea what you're talking about.
As to me reading a book on evolution, how about you just start off by reading a book.
Like the bible? BTW - what's it like not having a book shelf?
In your case, perhaps. But essentially, it is natural selection and diversity and is responsible for all life on this planet.
I say that is very much chance.
Yes, but of course, you have no idea what you're talking about.
As to me reading a book on evolution, how about you just start off by reading a book.
Like the bible? BTW - what's it like not having a book shelf?
They (Hitler/Stalin) for the most part were atheist that share your hatred.
Surprise, surprise, surprise! Another theist opens his yap without thinking.
Stalin studied at the Orthodox Theological Seminary in Tiflis and Hitler believed the same things as Christians.
They were just like you, doughead.
Surprise, surprise, surprise! Another theist opens his yap without thinking.
Stalin studied at the Orthodox Theological Seminary in Tiflis and Hitler believed the same things as Christians.
They were just like you, doughead.
JeffTheLearner
Registered Senior Member
You know nothing of History; second of all I'm tired of arguing with you. Your very childish in thought, and as for your many ways for describing the concept of the word "chance", it strikes me as odd that you don’t even notice it. But that’s what happens when you believe the spoon-fed garbage you get in the public schools, not excluding notable colleges, and bible schools. My points are simple and if a couple of scriptures of the True spoken word discourage you for even trying to understand that’s your loss there are many valid points in an array of different topics, I spent at least 20 hours typing for you, because I know the holes in atheism, and secularism. Due to these many holes, you will drop your beliefs in these and you will worship under another religion, a religion of lies, and deception. The journey into all the answers of life are truly contained within the book of Gods Word, commonly refereed to as the Bible.
You know nothing of History...
Then, neither do all the historians or history books. Hitler and Stalin were religious, just like you. It's not my fault you're too lazy to find out.
second of all I'm tired of arguing with you
Why, because I don't agree with everything you say, because I point out your errors, or is it because I call you a doughead, doughead?
My points are simple...
If by simple, you mean dewy-eyed, half-witted and elementary, I agree.
I spent at least 20 hours typing for you
I'm flattered, but you might want to try using all ten fingers rather than hunt-and-peck with a pencil.
because I know the holes in atheism, and secularism.
Will you be revealing those so-called holes anytime soon?
Due to these many holes, you will drop your beliefs in these and you will worship under another religion, a religion of lies, and deception.
I have no beliefs nor will I be worshipping anyone or anything at anytime. But I await, all aquiver, for your enlightenment.
The journey into all the answers of life are truly contained within the book of Gods Word, commonly refereed to as the Bible.
A Muslim would disagree with you, vehemently. He may even try to kill you.
Nonetheless, the bible is very much like books from Grimm and Aesop, commonly referred to as fables, doughead.
Then, neither do all the historians or history books. Hitler and Stalin were religious, just like you. It's not my fault you're too lazy to find out.
second of all I'm tired of arguing with you
Why, because I don't agree with everything you say, because I point out your errors, or is it because I call you a doughead, doughead?
My points are simple...
If by simple, you mean dewy-eyed, half-witted and elementary, I agree.
I spent at least 20 hours typing for you
I'm flattered, but you might want to try using all ten fingers rather than hunt-and-peck with a pencil.
because I know the holes in atheism, and secularism.
Will you be revealing those so-called holes anytime soon?
Due to these many holes, you will drop your beliefs in these and you will worship under another religion, a religion of lies, and deception.
I have no beliefs nor will I be worshipping anyone or anything at anytime. But I await, all aquiver, for your enlightenment.
The journey into all the answers of life are truly contained within the book of Gods Word, commonly refereed to as the Bible.
A Muslim would disagree with you, vehemently. He may even try to kill you.
Nonetheless, the bible is very much like books from Grimm and Aesop, commonly referred to as fables, doughead.
JeffTheLearner
Registered Senior Member
Hitler and Stalin were not Christians. You don’t know anything about the Word of God. I’m sure like many they of course acted like one in the beginning for political reasons but actually their is much proof of Hitler’s acultic practices, even toward the end of his life he was to the point of actually believing that he was god. As for Stalin, you account for millions killed who were both of Judeans and Christians under his watch under his iron fist. Yea he had something to do with “religious” people, but a Christian? No the bible its self rejects him. He had different motives, just like the Popes who slaughtered many Judeans for political reasons, which also displays there rejection of Gods Word. Also the roots of Communist thinking can be found in their own textbook, -PSYCHOPOLITICS-, which was published in 1933 and taught in the Lenin School of Psychopolitical Warfare, University of Moscow. It states: "The first thing to be degraded in any nation under conquest must be the state of man himself. Nations which have a high ethical tone are difficult to conquer. Their loyalties are hard to shake . . . It is not efficient to attack a nation in such a frame of mind. It is the basic purpose of Psychopolitics to reduce this state of mind to the point where it can be ordered and then enslaved. Thus the first target must be man himself. He must be degraded from a spiritual being to an animalistic reaction pattern. He must think of himself as an animal, capable only of animalistic reactions. He must no longer think of himself, or his fellows, as capable of spiritual endurance or nobility . . . as a result, religion must become unfashionable, by demonstrating . . . that the soul is non-existent, and that man is an animal."
Horseman42
Registered Senior Member
How about trying to argue Christianity from logic instead of history? If you want to be tired, then be tired.
Ad hom attacks again. Please tell us the "chance" or the odds of the universe existing the way it is, and while your at it please tell us how you established these odds. You don't exactly have a spare universe, and a couple billion years to actually produce factual numbers do you?
If I was still spoon fed as you put it I would surely still be a Christian. It's only because I opened my eyes to what was actually true did I become an atheist.
Last time I checked all your points have been refuted, and have shown to you to be fallacies and illogical.
First off no one asked you to spend 20 hours typing. Secondly I fail to see the holes in atheism that you are refering to.
As a segestion. Please spend one hour typing out why Christianity is true (at least in your eyes) rather then spending 20 hours trying to find flaws in atheism. Even if atheism was not true, it doesn't mean Christianity is true. There are 100's of other religions out there.
Atheism is a lack of religion. You would think that since you were one you would at least understand this.
You are lacking proof in this statement.
Please go back and start refuting what people are saying to you. Can you please start with how does intelligent design theory doesn't constitute special pleading as you believe in a highly structured organized being that was not created (ie. god). This is something I never understood.
"Atheism is a lack of religion"
Realy?
To say that God does not exist is a religious statement- thus Atheism is a religion.
But most atheist that I have know are in fact "anti" God or God haters, but many agnostics that I
have know have been neutral about weather God is real or not but say that we can not know
weather God or religion is real or not.
Realy?
To say that God does not exist is a religious statement- thus Atheism is a religion.
But most atheist that I have know are in fact "anti" God or God haters, but many agnostics that I
have know have been neutral about weather God is real or not but say that we can not know
weather God or religion is real or not.