Cephalic phase

[John Connellan]

Sorry to make you . But wouldn't higher insulin in blood will increase pepsin & so stomach acidity level leading to hunger?

I just told u, it is harmless in the bloodstream if it is not biologically available!

It is bit confusing because if IR is caused by over exposure with insulin in blood then the whole prescription for insulin enhancement by oral medicines & injected insulin to diabetic patients with IR will become bit doubtful. We may have to check it by diet reduction and induced insulin reduction esp. in IDDM patients with IR.

Its definitely a doubtful method but insulin shouldn't be reduced quickley or they would die. Insulin sensitivity must be regained somehow.

 

[John Connellan]

John, can it also be possible that some patients declared as diabetic due to insulin defeciency (common), may actually gets high BS by defects of fat store conversion, Glucagon, Epinephrine, Cortisol, and Growth hormone? Persistance high BS & weight loss can be due to these defects. IS it right?

I can't see how those defects could be linked to insulin deficiency though

 

[Kumar]

I mean secondary diabetis: means high BS is caused by other reasons than insulin deficiency. Btw, In insulin resistance cases: Do the excess insulin works/utilized properly/fully for storing the excess glucose as glucogen & fats? If sugar in urine is a balance of sugar after it is used or stored & which can't be utilized due to no insulin left?

 

[John Connellan]

I mean secondary diabetis: means high BS is caused by other reasons than insulin deficiency.

ALL diabetes is caused by the more important term: insulin unavailability.

Btw, In insulin resistance cases: Do the excess insulin works/utilized properly/fully for storing the excess glucose as glucogen & fats?

In IR, the excess insulin cannot do anything like I have said!

If sugar in urine is a balance of sugar after it is used or stored & which can't be utilized due to no insulin left?

Sugar in the urine is not a normal thing since we should be able to make use of it all. When it happens, it could be a result of insulin unavailability all right

 

[Kumar]

In IR, the excess insulin cannot do anything like I have said!

How then diabetes patient with IR gain weight/become obese? Does the insulin not required for conversion of Sugar into fats? I think insulin which can not be used for sugar metabolism due to IR, might be used for conversion into fat stores. However if there is no insulin then excess sugar can't be stored as fats & so will be excreted in urine. Is it ok.

Ref:

Insulin resistance
When your cells are exposed to insulin at all, they get a little bit more resistant to it. So the pancreas just puts out more insulin. Cells become insulin resistant because they are trying to protect themselves from the toxic effects of high insulin. They down-regulate their receptor activity and number of receptors so that they don't have to be subjected to all that stimuli all the time.

Different cells respond to insulin differently. Some cells are more resistant than others, as some cells are incapable of becoming very resistant. The liver becomes resistant first, followed by the muscle tissue and lastly the fats. As all these major tissues, become insulin resistant your pancreas is putting out more insulin to compensate. Any time your cell is exposed to insulin it is going to become more insulin resistant.

...6. Increased weight and fat storage. For most people, too much weight is too much fat. In males, a large abdomen is the more obvious and earliest sign of Insulin Resistance. In females, it's prominent buttocks.

7. Increased triglycerides. High triglycerides in the blood are often found in overweight persons. But even those who are not overweight may have stores of fat in their arteries as a result of Insulin Resistance.

These triglycerides are the direct result of carbohydrates in the diet being converted by insulin...

http://www.healingdaily.com/detoxification-diet/insulin.htm

 

[John Connellan]

How then diabetes patient with IR gain weight/become obese? Does the insulin not required for conversion of Sugar into fats?

Ref: http://www.healingdaily.com/detoxification-diet/insulin.htm

No, insulin is for energy production from glucose.

I think insulin which can not be used for sugar metabolism due to IR, might be used for conversion into fat stores.

This is right.

However if there is no insulin then excess sugar can't be stored as fats & so will be excreted in urine. Is it ok.

Some fat formation will ocuur but some of it will be excreted in the urine. The formation of fat (lipogenesis) is not simple however and the unavailability of insulin leads to a cascade of reactions which eventually increase abdominal obesity.

 

[Kumar]

Insulin resistance is associated with being overweight and inactive. Losing 5-10 percent of weight, or becoming active, helps to alleviate the resistance. Many people who are insulin-resistant also have "Syndrome X."

Syndrome X is a termed coined by Dr. Gerald Reaven of Stanford University to describe a group of symptoms including high blood pressure, abdominal obesity, glucose intolerance and high levels of blood fats (primarily triglycerides and low HDL or "good" lipoproteins).

Another thought: when IR patients can't burn the sugar & so stored as fats--Is it not that this storing of fats is responsible for all abovementioned problems of Syndrome X. However when fat are also become IR then a person may lose weight inspite of excess insulin--& may be excess lipids thus converted due to IR.

 

[Kumar]

No, insulin is for energy production from glucose.

This is right.

John sorry, but are these two replies are not bit contradictory?

 

[John Connellan]

Another thought: when IR patients can't burn the sugar & so stored as fats--Is it not that this storing of fats is responsible for all abovementioned problems of Syndrome X.

well at least its responsible for abdominal obesity.

However when fat are also become IR then a person may lose weight inspite of excess insulin--& may be excess lipids thus converted due to IR.

Don't really understand what your trying to say here!

 

[John Connellan]

John sorry, but are these two replies are not bit contradictory?

Sorry, I had another look at that post again and I was wrong when I said "that is right"! I thought u were saying something else in that post. Insulin cannot do anything in a situation of IR.

 

[Kumar]

Don't really understand what your trying to say here!
Sorry, I had another look at that post again and I was wrong when I said "that is right"! I thought u were saying something else in that post. Insulin cannot do anything in a situation of IR.

Pls just reconsider it in view of following quote:-

Different cells respond to insulin differently. Some cells are more resistant than others, as some cells are incapable of becoming very resistant. The liver becomes resistant first, followed by the muscle tissue and lastly the fats.

Normal health:-

carbs>>gulucose>>cells absorb with insulin>>extra stored as fats>>weight increase>>still extra/no insulin excreted in urine.

Abnormal health (diabetes with IR):-

carbs>>gulucose>>cell may absorb/burn partially with some insulin being cells are IR>> extra stored as fats as not yet resistant>>weight increase>>still extra/no insulin excreted in urine.

carbs>>gulucose>>cell may absorb/burn partially with some insulin being cells are IR>> extra stored partially or nothing as fats as become insulin resistant>>weight constant>>still extra/no insulin excreted in urine.

carbs>>gulucose>>cell may not absorb/burn even partially with some insulin being cells are fully IR>> extra not stored as fats also become insulin resistant>>body uses previous store of fats for energy>>weight loss>>still extra/no insulin excreted in urine.

Protein cycle may start thereafter. Is it ok. Do you have any idea about protein cycle in diabetes?

 

[John Connellan]

Normal health:

carbs>>gulucose>>cells absorb with insulin>>extra stored as fats>>weight increase>>still extra/no insulin excreted in urine.

This is my correction:

carbs>>gulucose>>cells absorb with insulin>>(little) extra stored as fats>>(slight or no) weight increase

Abnormal health (diabetes with IR):-

carbs>>gulucose>>cell may absorb/burn partially with some insulin being cells are IR>> extra stored as fats as not yet resistant>>weight increase>>still extra/no insulin excreted in urine.

carbs>>gulucose>>cell may absorb/burn partially with some insulin being cells are IR>> extra stored partially or nothing as fats as become insulin resistant>>weight constant>>still extra/no insulin excreted in urine.

This is what i think happens (just 1 scenario):

carbs>>gulucose>>cell may absorb/burn partially with some insulin being cells are IR>> abdominal obesity increases>>peripheral fat might actually decrease as energy MUST be supplied to cells

p.s. I have never heard of insulin in the urine or testing for it!

carbs>>gulucose>>cell may not absorb/burn even partially with some insulin being cells are fully IR>> extra not stored as fats also become insulin resistant>>body uses previous store of fats for energy>>weight loss>>still extra/no insulin excreted in urine.

Finally:

carbs>>gulucose>>cell may not absorb/burn even partially with some insulin being cells are fully IR>>cellular need for energy over-rides abdominal lipogenesis>>body uses previous store of fats for energy (including abdominal)>>weight loss

Protein cycle may start thereafter.

No, protein cycle starts much sooner. Actually happens at about the same time as the fat mobilization!

Is it ok. Do you have any idea about protein cycle in diabetes?

Ask me!

 

[Kumar]

John, thanks. "still extra/no insulin excreted in urine. " by it I mean gulucose still extra & without insulin can be excreted(sugar not insulin) in urine.

I just want to know if extra carbs are also stored as protein & if insulin is needed for making that store of protein? Is it correct that differant cells like liver, muscles & fats have differant resistances to insulin as I mentioned above? If it is so then why IR for fats is not seprately mentioned?

 

[John Connellan]

I just want to know if extra carbs are also stored as protein & if insulin is needed for making that store of protein?

To my knowledge: No, to both of the above.

Is it correct that differant cells like liver, muscles & fats have differant resistances to insulin as I mentioned above? If it is so then why IR for fats is not seprately mentioned?

Not too sure about this. I don't think there has been any researh into this but maybe there should be!

 

[Kumar]

John, yes it is most important to understand all body processes from conversion of carbs to gulucose its uses & stores. We may be bit missing for liver, fats & protein(if there) IR & then their revese orders on complicating the diabetes conditions. I think it happens. Lactic acidosis or just acidosis, Ketoacidosis & Uremia acidosis seems to be related to carbs, fats, protien reverse utilization for energy.

Do you have any idea that: how a diabetic patient with uncontrolled & high BS since long, taking much diabetic medications/insulin for enhancing the insulin-- suddenly finds that his BS is well controlled or low with same medications/insulin & same diet & excercise? Acordingly he may have to substancially cut the medication programe & then also he experiances control/low sugar levels? However he may experiance bit low hunger, changed mouth tastes, changed food types, motions clear/loose in place of habitual constipation. I think it happens with most of patients at some later date. I am bit suspicious that it is due to some change in GI tract environment from acidic to bilous or alkaline? Can you comment on this please?

..bile salts are mediators in the regulation of hepatic lipogenesis and adaptive thermogenesis. These effects should be explored to correct hypertriglyceridemia, diet-induced obesity and insulin resistance.http://www.wissenschaft-online.de/gbm/mosbach04/homepage/abstract_detail.php?artikel_id=494

 

[John Connellan]

Kumar, there is so much going on the body and so many things are linked that we seem to only have a glimpse of some of these links. We are a long way off finding out the complete metabolic pathways of the human body.
Although I know quite a lot about basic metabolism, I am not an expert on bile salts but when u think about it, most everything should be linked back to what u consume. Food, nutrients and drugs are the things which cause imbalances and changes to our internal system and very few other things have this cause. U talk about a GI tract 'environment'. This 'environment' is changed either directly or indirectly through what we consume.

 

[Kumar]

This 'environment' is changed either directly or indirectly through what we consume.

It is right but, is it not true that our every or most disorders effects our GI tract environment, which may have some relation to all or most of our disorders? It may be related to the basic problem or a root cause & to our constitutional & heriditory problems. If this could be attended first, we may, probably, avoid so many irregularities. But I do not find much symptoms of GI imbalances in the disease's symptoms & causes, commonly mentioned. Environment means it can effect everything. I feel it works both way. It effects our internal environment for what we consume & our internal environment effects it for what we should or should not consume. Is it not ok.

 

[John Connellan]

Can u give me some examples of disorders that u think affect the GI tract environment?

 

[Kumar]

Will excess insulin, Mental stresses, infections, not trigger more secretion of stomach acidity? Just opposite, low insulin may trigger low stomach acidity or high intestinal alkaline secretions. In reverse order, high stomach acidity may trigger low insulin secretion & high alkaline secretion may trigger excess insulin secretion--for homeostatis purpose. Since GI tract environment effects digestion & absorption of all or most of body substances then in reverse order all internal imbalances in body substances should trigger change in GI tract environment to encourage or discourage its absorption. Iron, vit B12, folic acid, zinc, protiens, calcium's overload/deficiency may trigger low/high stomach acid secretions. If I am not much wrong body may control homeostatis of body substances at their digetion & absorption basic level of digestive tract by changing in acidic & alkaline secretions. Acid blokers/antacids effects digetion of various minerals.
http://altmedicine.about.com/cs/digestiveproblems/a/LowHCL.htm
http://www.vitacost.com/science/hn/Drug/Antacids.htm

Just think of reverse order/effects of the problems caused by imbalanced GIT environment.

 

[John Connellan]

Will excess insulin, Mental stresses, infections, not trigger more secretion of stomach acidity? Since GI tract environment effects digestion & absorption of all or most of body substances then in reverse order all internal imbalances in body substances should trigger change in GI tract environment to encourage or discourage its absorption. Iron, vit B12, folic acid, zinc, protiens, calcium's overload/deficiency may trigger low/high stomach acid secretions. If I am not much wrong body may control homeostatis of body substances at their digetion & absorption basic level of digestive tract by changing in acidic & alkaline secretions. Acid blokers/antacids effects digetion of various minerals.
http://altmedicine.about.com/cs/digestiveproblems/a/LowHCL.htm
http://www.vitacost.com/science/hn/Drug/Antacids.htm

Just think of reverse order/effects of the problems caused by imbalanced GIT environment.

OK but u see, not ALL disorders affect GI tract. Asthma for example shouldn't. Parkinsons disease isn't related to it! There are a good few disorders related to stomach secretions however.