Can God love?

[Jan Ardena]

wynn,

In some ideal world, perhaps.

I did stipulate in the mode of goodness.
There are good people around who have the capacity to love their children unconditionally. It's not some utopian pipe-dream.

I've seen statistics that say that about 50% of the current population was conceived unplanned. Then there is a considerable percentage of the population who were conceived so that the parents-to-be would collect various economical benefits (e.g. some people have children so that through that, they receive financial support from the state, and don't work). Then there is a percentage of the population that was conceived in an effort that the woman would prevent the man from leaving her. Another percentage was conceived under some other pressure.
The percentage of the population who were conceived because the parents-to-be simply wanted to have children is probably very small.

It means that the off-spring doesn't get the oppotunity of unconditional love, from the parents.
But generally parents have an unconditional love for their children.

Just because people materially provide for their children doesn't automatically mean they love them.

It's not just about materially providing for them, it's about taking care of them, protecting them, teaching them, and all the good stuff.

Not rarely, the situation is simply that people don't want a child, have sex, the contraceptives fail or they forget about them in the heat of the moment, they end up pregnant, out of guilt and protecting their reputation, don't opt for abortion or adoption, and then keep the child and materially care for it because it would reflect badly on the parents not to do so. They materially care for the child for the sake of their own reputation, because they don't want to appear like "bad people", not because they would actually love the child.

Now you're taking this inquiry somewhere else.
What exactly are we discussing here?

Tell that to a child whose parents tell him that he was a "mistake" or who tell him that he is the reason why they are so unhappy.

If I was going to talk to that child, I would look at his situation, and take it from there. It would be pointless talking about something he's had no experience of.

What are you talking about?
Spiritually, we need the material world?

No.
God.

Nobody put a gun to God's head or a knife to His throat and threatened to kill Him if He doesn't maintain the universe.

That's not the point.

I suppose your parents didn't tell you that you were a "mistake" and that you're the reason for their misery, did they?

No they didn't, and i'm happy about that.
But I'm not apologise for it. I think it is a normal state of affairs for parents to unconditionally love their children. And I say this because I have children of my own, not because I expect it. Through that I have a clearer understanding of my parent situation.

Do you know what that is like, when your mother buys you a birthday cake, but she also told you that you were a "mistake" and the she regrets having you? Do you know what that is like?

No I don't.
But from an outside point of view, that statement could be taken as a truth, as in that's how she really feels. It may not be such a horrible thing, if she has a reason for that, even if the reason hurts your feelings.

If she says it to hurt you with it, then that's another aspect of your mother that you can understand. She may be a real nasty person. They do exist, and they have children.

Either way with a sober mind, the truth can set you free, and it is best to break free, because then you can get on with your life.

Why? Can you explain?

The human body is a brilliant machine, and I don't think it's simply just a product nature developed over time. I think it is intelligently designed, and we as souls have the oppotunity to wear it, giving us the potential ability to understand the ultimate reality.

Taking things on faith is fine, as long as one doesn't have to take things on faith from people who despise one.

Good point.

And theists have a tendency to despise ordinary people.

That's because y'all taste better grilled, in a despised state of mind.
We don't just eat you raw you know.

Freud would love you for this ...

Then he has impeccable taste.


jan.

 

[wynn]

If I was going to talk to that child, I would look at his situation, and take it from there. It would be pointless talking about something he's had no experience of.

But this is not what you're doing. You are speaking in some general sense and criticizing people as if they all would be raised by loving parents and as if they all had the favorable experience of it. When in fact many people do not have that experience, but the opposite one.
And it is not just you who speaks like that - theists in general tend to do that, even on a doctrinal level.

Either way with a sober mind, the truth can set you free, and it is best to break free, because then you can get on with your life.

Gee, I wouldn't have thought of that! :bugeye:

The human body is a brilliant machine, and I don't think it's simply just a product nature developed over time. I think it is intelligently designed, and we as souls have the oppotunity to wear it, giving us the potential ability to understand the ultimate reality.

Which is what? Finally realizing that God doesn't actually want us?

You see, a favorable experience with one's parents seems to be crucial to having the confidence in approaching God and spiritual topics, or life in general.

That's because y'all taste better grilled, in a despised state of mind.
We don't just eat you raw you know.

That is not funny.

 

[wynn]

It requires a great deal of patients to acquire great knowledge, wisdom, and understanding. There's no getting around it.

It requires a great deal of patients, huh?
How many? 50? 50,000? 5 billion? And patients? Of what institution exactly? The one with the white padded cells?

 

[James R]

Jan Ardena,

I think God loves us because he is maintaining us in this material world, and through the agency of material nature, provides us with everything to tap into that resovoir, because spiritually, that is what we need.

But apparently God plays favorites. While he might maintain you with his American reservoir of plenty, he apparently is quite happy to neglect millions of people who are starving in Africa, to take one obvious example.

But maybe all those people don't deserve God's maintenance like you do.

The human body is a brilliant machine, and I don't think it's simply just a product nature developed over time. I think it is intelligently designed, and we as souls have the oppotunity to wear it, giving us the potential ability to understand the ultimate reality.

Out of interest, why do you think the body is intelligently designed?

 

[Jan Ardena]

James R,

But apparently God plays favorites. While he might maintain you with his American reservoir of plenty, he apparently is quite happy to neglect millions of people who are starving in Africa, to take one obvious example.

But maybe all those people don't deserve God's maintenance like you do.

That's your way of looking at it., rich, beautiful, talented, and well fed people are endowed with Gods' glory, while poor, ugly, starving, people aren't.
This is your darwinistic worldview kicking in.

God takes care of the spirit-soul, because that's the part that is eternal, whereas the body and mind is subject to material nature.

What good is that we gain the world and lose our soul?

Out of interest, why do you think the body is intelligently designed?

Because it's a brilliant, and all brilliant machines in my experience are intelligently designed.

Out of interest why do think the body isn't intelligently designed?

jan.

 

[wynn]

That's your way of looking at it., rich, beautiful, talented, and well fed people are endowed with Gods' glory, while poor, ugly, starving, people aren't.
This is your darwinistic worldview kicking in.

Actually, it's Calvinism.
I'm sure there is a Hindu counterpart too, given the focus that some Hindus have on demigod worship for the purpose of material benefits.

Because it's a brilliant, and all brilliant machines in my experience are intelligently designed.

Out of interest why do think the body isn't intelligently designed?

Then you need to be born in a female body that will leak blood every month.
That, and rotting teeth.

 

[NMSquirrel]

That's your way of looking at it., rich, beautiful, talented, and well fed people are endowed with Gods' glory, while poor, ugly, starving, people aren't.
This is your darwinistic worldview kicking in.

i hope you are not arguing what i think you are arguing..
(you did say 'your')

What good is that we gain the world and lose our soul?

because this would be my rebuttal..

 

[wynn]

What good is that we gain the world and lose our soul?

And it is not possible to "lose your soul."

 

[Jan Ardena]

wynn,

But this is not what you're doing. You are speaking in some general sense and criticizing people as if they all would be raised by loving parents and as if they all had the favorable experience of it. When in fact many people do not have that experience, but the opposite one.
And it is not just you who speaks like that - theists in general tend to do that, even on a doctrinal level.

I'm not addressing a child who has had that experience, and if you have had that experience, I'm still not addressing. I'm using the parent child analogy to give more clarity to a point.

Try to stay on point.

Which is what? Finally realizing that God doesn't actually want us?

Is that what you think?

You see, a favorable experience with one's parents seems to be crucial to having the confidence in approaching God and spiritual topics, or life in general.

Try and see it from the analogy pov, and not get bogged down detail that take you away from the point.

That is not funny.

I think it is.

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Actually, it's Calvinism.
I'm sure there is a Hindu counterpart too, given the focus that some Hindus have on demigod worship for the purpose of material benefits.

What's your point?

Then you need to be born in a female body that will leak blood every month.
That, and rotting teeth.

But you still have the capacity to access God, and become self-realised.
The state of your body and mind doesn't matter.

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

i hope you are not arguing what i think you are arguing..
(you did say 'your')



because this would be my rebuttal..

I don't get you.

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

It requires a great deal of patients, huh?
How many? 50? 50,000? 5 billion? And patients? Of what institution exactly? The one with the white padded cells?

Sorry. I was in a hurry.
In fact, I'm always in a hurry these days, so these errors will slip through.

You do realise I meant ''patience'' right?


jan.

 

[wynn]

What's your point?

That theists themselves are promoting the idea that if someone is poor, lowly, this means they are not loved by God.

But you still have the capacity to access God, and become self-realised.
The state of your body and mind doesn't matter.

??
Oh really?

I'm not addressing a child who has had that experience, and if you have had that experience, I'm still not addressing. I'm using the parent child analogy to give more clarity to a point.

Try to stay on point.

Try and see it from the analogy pov, and not get bogged down detail that take you away from the point.

I can understand the analogy perfectly well, thank you very much, in fact, I can argue for it a hundred times better than you can.


It's you who is staying behind and off the point.


Perhaps I should heed all your praise of my intellect and stop talking to you, because you're just too slow for me.

You do realise I meant ''patience'' right?

Thats' the only way I could point out the Freudian slip ...

 

[Jan Ardena]

wynn,

That theists themselves are promoting the idea that if someone is poor, lowly, this means they are not loved by God.

Oh really?

??
Oh really?

yes.

I can understand the analogy perfectly well, thank you very much, in fact, I can argue for it a hundred times better than you can.

Oh really?
Bring this shit on bitch!
I'm here ready and waitin.

It's you who is staying behind and off the point.

That's just jumped up, bull-shit, I recently got my O'level, talk.
Bring it!

Perhaps I should heed all your praise of my intellect and stop talking to you, because you're just too slow for me.

Blah! Blah! Blah!.


jan.

 

[wynn]

Oh really?

Yes. Read up on Calvinism.

Oh really?
Bring this shit on bitch!
I'm here ready and waitin.

That's just jumped up, bull-shit, I recently got my O'level, talk.
Bring it!

What do you want to know?

 

[Jan Ardena]

Yes. Read up on Calvinism.




What do you want to know?

Start by deconstructing my points, without ''theist accusations''.


jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

wynn,

Yes. Read up on Calvinism.

Don't the calvinists believe that it is the fallen who are incapable of obtaining Gods' mercy? Not the poor and lowly.

jan.

 

[wynn]

A Calvinist won't even preach to someone who is poor and lowly, as being poor and lowly is considered an almost sure sign that God does not favor that person.
According to Calvinism, God has a list of the chosen ones; and an almost sure sign that someone is not on that list is that said person is poor and lowly.

 

[wynn]

Start by deconstructing my points, without ''theist accusations''.

I've no issue with "deconstructing your points" on the dependency of humans on God and on the debt of gratitude that humans owe to God.


My "theist accusations," however, are perfectly in place.

People who claim to be theists often display a lack of sensitivity for the people they talk to and whose unconditional trust and respect they demand.
And that is something I will point out when it comes up.


Citizens against abuse in the name of God!

 

[Jan Ardena]

A Calvinist won't even preach to someone who is poor and lowly, as being poor and lowly is considered an almost sure sign that God does not favor that person.
According to Calvinism, God has a list of the chosen ones; and an almost sure sign that someone is not on that list is that said person is poor and lowly.

Calvinism,


I've kind of skimmed through the theology of Calvinism, and already I don't see it like that.

In Wikipedia they refer to the ''fallen'', not the poor or lowly.



...In Christian doctrine, the fall of man, or simply the fall, refers to the transition of the first humans from a state of innocent obedience to God to a state of guilty disobedience to God.


jan.