Can God love?

[NMSquirrel]

People who claim to be theists often display a lack of sensitivity for the people they talk to and whose unconditional trust and respect they demand.
And that is something I will point out when it comes up.

I see your point. but in fairness this is not limited to theists, look at how many non-theist on this board try to get the unconditional trust and respect..if you don't tell them they are right, or you are wrong,they fly off the handle..every person on this board has phrased their comments as if they are the ultimate authority on what they are talking about..

Citizens against abuse in the name of God!

True that...

And Jan..
yes, I also believe that a persons station in life (how prosperous they are) has no bearing on whether God Loves them or not..
using your parenting analogy..
it is a more loving parent that disciplines their kids, than the parent who does not ever discipline them..(i am speaking to the ideal,not the reality..IOW i am not talking about the parents who abuse their kids and call it discipline)

but i also do not think you are correct to claim that theist do not think that lack of prosperity equals lack of God love, I have met several like that...

 

[wynn]

Calvinism,


I've kind of skimmed through the theology of Calvinism, and already I don't see it like that.

In Wikipedia they refer to the ''fallen'', not the poor or lowly.

...In Christian doctrine, the fall of man, or simply the fall, refers to the transition of the first humans from a state of innocent obedience to God to a state of guilty disobedience to God.

... and poverty and lowliness are often considered a sign of fallenness.

 

[wynn]

I see your point. but in fairness this is not limited to theists, look at how many non-theist on this board try to get the unconditional trust and respect..if you don't tell them they are right, or you are wrong,they fly off the handle..

The terms are not even.
Theists and non-theists are not equals.

Unless you wish to promote the idea that theism is no different than any other belief and practice that a person might have - as if theism would be no different than, say, crocheting, or being a fan of Elvis Presley or of some basketball team.

 

[Jan Ardena]

NMSquirrel,

And Jan..

...but i also do not think you are correct to claim that theist do not think that lack of prosperity equals lack of God love, I have met several like that...

I don't disagree that theists make those kinds of distinction. But I object to the implication that it is a ''theist'' thing, so to speak.

Most people in the western civilisation hold this concept, also peoples who are influenced by the west.

No scriptures advocate that poor, ugly, or, lowly people are devoid of God's mercy.

jan

 

[wynn]

No scriptures advocate that poor, ugly, or, lowly people are devoid of God's mercy.

Gee, that's really helpful.

Especially considering that
1. One needs theists if one is to, even just nominally, obtain any information about God,
and
2. Theists tend to be selective and reluctant to share with people who are poor, ugly, lowly.

If a person is poor, lowly and ugly (nice addition!), it's quite likely that theists will treat that person like shit.

 

[wynn]

The human body is a brilliant machine, and I don't think it's simply just a product nature developed over time. I think it is intelligently designed, and we as souls have the oppotunity to wear it, giving us the potential ability to understand the ultimate reality.

Which is what? Finally realizing that God doesn't actually want us?

Is that what you think?

I have not excluded the possibility.

Given that ordinary people have to rely for all input on the topic "God" on theists, and given that theists tend not to be particularly kind and welcoming people, it is reasonable to consider the possibility that God could be just like theists - eager to reject.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Gee, that's really helpful.

Especially considering that
1. One needs theists if one is to, even just nominally, obtain any information about God,
and
2. Theists tend to be selective and reluctant to share with people who are poor, ugly, lowly.

If a person is poor, lowly and ugly (nice addition!), it's quite likely that theists will treat that person like shit.

Nonsense.

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

I have not excluded the possibility.

Given that ordinary people have to rely for all input on the topic "God" on theists, and given that theists tend not to be particularly kind and welcoming people, it is reasonable to consider the possibility that God could be just like theists - eager to reject.

You're not only an expert on every single theist, you're an expert on every single ordinary person?

jan.

 

[wynn]

Nonsense.

You yourself are a prime example of such a selective and rejecting theist.

:shrug:

You're not only an expert on every single theist, you're an expert on every single ordinary person?

Strawman. I spoke of tendencies.

 

[wynn]

NMS -


You didn't reply to my question:

When you say you "love God" or that "God loves you," whom or what do you mean by that word "God"? An old man with a beard? A spirit? A force? The Universal Form? A statue made of marble or brass?
??

 

[NMSquirrel]

The terms are not even.
Theists and non-theists are not equals.

when it comes to their humanity, they are equal..
specially when you recall 'all men are created equal'..
whether they be theist or non-theist they are all subjective to their own human falibilities.

 

[kx000]

"All men are created equal," my ass. One boy is born at 10 lbs, and another with a missing arm.

 

[NMSquirrel]

NMSquirrel,
Most people in the western civilisation hold this concept, also peoples who are influenced by the west.

No scriptures advocate that poor, ugly, or, lowly people are devoid of God's mercy.

jan

i agree..scripture does not separate them..man does..

But I object to the implication that it is a ''theist'' thing, so to speak.

this is a tricky one..
like was said, most non-theists knowledge concerning God comes from theists..
and i will admit to the spread of this attitude (lowly = Lack of God) comes mostly from theist from history, and not so much these days (but it still exists)

look at how gays get treated by believers..it is an excuse to discriminate, just as poor are discriminated against by saying they have a lack of God in their lives...

yes these attitudes are being slowly eliminated from the churchs/theists attitudes, but it still exists...

(at this point the separation between the church's attitude and the individual theists is very fuzzy)

and for the most part non-theist would not claim that a person is poor because God is not in their life, since they do not believe in God , the only time they would claim such a thing is to echo a theists claim to such , course this doesn't say anything about eithers misconception.
nor does it say anything about the non-theists desire to pick and choose from valid info from a theist and non-valid info from a theist..(ask a new believer vs an experienced believer and you can get two different answers)

 

[NMSquirrel]

"All men are created equal," my ass. One boy is born at 10 lbs, and another with a missing arm.

has nothing to do with the point..
as that can happen regardless of theist/non-theist stance..

 

[kx000]

What stance, NM?

 

[NMSquirrel]

What stance, NM?

the stance is whether one is 'blessed by God' by being prosperous..

 

[NMSquirrel]

1 Timothy 6 addresses the topic at hand..
the whole chapter is relevant but here is an exerp:
(feel free to compare different version as it helps to increase the understanding of the verses)

17 Warn the rich people of this world not to be proud or to trust in wealth that is easily lost. Tell them to have faith in God, who is rich and blesses us with everything we need to enjoy life. 18 Instruct them to do as many good deeds as they can and to help everyone. Remind the rich to be generous and share what they have. 19 This will lay a solid foundation for the future, so that they will know what true life is like.

and a couple verses that applies to a few here at sciforums..

Those people who disagree are proud of themselves, but they don’t really know a thing. Their minds are sick, and they like to argue over words. They cause jealousy, disagreements, unkind words, evil suspicions, 5 and nasty quarrels. They have wicked minds and have missed out on the truth.

 

[wynn]

1 Timothy 6 addresses the topic at hand..
the whole chapter is relevant but here is an exerp:
(feel free to compare different version as it helps to increase the understanding of the verses)

and a couple verses that applies to a few here at sciforums..

Would you also like to point some fingers, name some names?

If not, then why are you posting such accusatory materials?

 

[NMSquirrel]

Would you also like to point some fingers, name some names?

If not, then why are you posting such accusatory materials?

you are talking about the second quote..

i am not gonna name names..or point fingers..
simply because i also qualify in certain respects..

 

[Jan Ardena]

NMSquirrel,

i agree..scripture does not separate them..man does..

Okayl.

But I object to the implication that it is a ''theist'' thing, so to speak.

this is a tricky one..
1. like was said, most non-theists knowledge concerning God comes from theists..

2. and i will admit to the spread of this attitude (lowly = Lack of God) comes mostly from theist from history,

3. and not so much these days (but it still exists)

It's not tricky at all.

1. i think you'll find that most knowledge/information/inspiration, is imparted to those of us without knowledge, comes from people who have said knowledge.


2. Can this statement be backed up by you?


3. Could it be because those type of folks no longer consider themselves theist.

look at how gays get treated by believers..it is an excuse to discriminate, just as poor are discriminated against by saying they have a lack of God in their lives...

How do they get treated?

yes these attitudes are being slowly eliminated from the churchs/theists attitudes, but it still exists...

Prejudice exists I agree.
Now show me that such prejudice is a property of theism.

(at this point the separation between the church's attitude and the individual theists is very fuzzy)

Is the church a ''theist'' organisation?
If you believe they are, please explain why?

and for the most part non-theist would not claim that a person is poor because God is not in their life, since they do not believe in God ,

That's obvious. But if they believed in the religion of darwinian evolution, the god, natural selection, would have be wholly within it's rights to eliminate the weaker species, with a a little human intervention to speed the clean up operation, up.


I'd like you to show me what you're trying to get across.

jan.