Can God love?

wynn said:
How do you suggest then that God's love for people be ascertained?
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How does one ascertain that one needs air to survive?
The answer is, one doesn't.
One doesn't even need to know or realise that one needs air to survive, untill
ones air supply is arrested. Then it may be too late. But if one is given the oppotunity to maintain ones life, then one immediately understands it's importance, and real respect can take place.



jan.
 
wynn said:
This line of reasoning, however, is sometimes used as a way to make the point that one shouldn't ask anything of God, shouldn't hope for anything from God - in fact, that it would be best if one just vanished into thin air.


With this kind of reasoning, a person can be talked out of anything, and effectively into suicide.
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first this sound more like a reply to my post about prayer than a reply to the post you reply'd to..
second i will not argue that everyone should believe as i do,i understand your point, i only communicated what i thought about it..
 
Jan Ardena said:
How does one ascertain that one needs air to survive?
The answer is, one doesn't.
One doesn't even need to know or realise that one needs air to survive, untill
ones air supply is arrested. Then it may be too late. But if one is given the oppotunity to maintain ones life, then one immediately understands it's importance, and real respect can take place.
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No, it doesn't.

If one's life is down to eating, sleeping, mating and defending, and this is all that is possible in one's life, this is anything but proof of God's love.
Rather, it would suggest a perverse affectation from God to punish a person by limiting them to eating, sleeping, mating and defending. When one is put in such a state, one is not grateful for the air one breathes.
 
NMSquirrel said:
short answer is we should not 'expect' him to do anything
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In other words, we should all just lie down and die, vanish into thin air, stop existing?


If we are to believe that God loves us, it is justified that we expect things of Him.
 
wynn said:
In other words, we should all just lie down and die, vanish into thin air, stop existing?


If we are to believe that God loves us, it is justified that we expect things of Him.
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i must be tired..i swear this was in another thread..
 
wynn said:
No, it doesn't.

If one's life is down to eating, sleeping, mating and defending, and this is all that is possible in one's life, this is anything but proof of God's love.
Rather, it would suggest a perverse affectation from God to punish a person by limiting them to eating, sleeping, mating and defending. When one is put in such a state, one is not grateful for the air one breathes.
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So how would you suggest that Gods love for people be ascertained?

jan.
 
wynn said:
In other words, we should all just lie down and die, vanish into thin air, stop existing?


If we are to believe that God loves us, it is justified that we expect things of Him.
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By ''believe that God loves us'', do you mean we affirm to ourselves ''God loves me''? Sort of how some atheist see belief?

If not can you tell me how one actually believes such a thing without being selfish, and defeating the objective?

jan.
 
Jan Ardena said:
So how would you suggest that Gods love for people be ascertained?
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Obviously, I cannot unilaterally set the terms for that.

"If God would really love me, then ..." - how to complete this sentence?

If God would really love me, then I would have a clear sense that there is more to life than mere eating, sleeping, mating and defending - that instead, there is a higher purpose to live for.
 
Jan Ardena said:
In other words, we should all just lie down and die, vanish into thin air, stop existing?


If we are to believe that God loves us, it is justified that we expect things of Him.
Click to expand...
By ''believe that God loves us'', do you mean we affirm to ourselves ''God loves me''? Sort of how some atheist see belief?

If not can you tell me how one actually believes such a thing without being selfish, and defeating the objective?
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My point is that within a relationship of love, there are things that can reasonably be expected.

For example, if someone claims to love you, but this person never actually has time for you, never actually spends time with you, ignores you when they see you in public - will you still believe this person loves you?
 
wynn said:
My point is that within a relationship of love, there are things that can reasonably be expected.

For example, if someone claims to love you, but this person never actually has time for you, never actually spends time with you, ignores you when they see you in public - will you still believe this person loves you?
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the same argument would apply to someone who tells you they love you so much that they have to let you go, because being with you is not good for you.

the example you used is biased by the term 'ignore', the rest could be an accidental/unintentional byproduct of their life, where as the term 'ignore' intones intentional..
if they intentionally avoid you, then no they do not love you..but if the avoidance is unintentional then they could still love you.(of course this doesn't speak to my point if they think that your life would be better without them,IE love you enough to let you go, as this would be intentional )
ok so maybe this isn't a good example..

maybe you are just trying to point out that some ppl claim that they love you when they don't, maybe they do not know what love is...
in this case, you are comparing infallible God to fallible man..

some would argue that True Love doesn't expect anything.
which comes back to the 'prove that you Love me' question..what is proof that someone Loves you?
i don't think there is a definitive answer, and as such is subjective.
 
wynn said:
Obviously, I cannot unilaterally set the terms for that.

"If God would really love me, then ..." - how to complete this sentence?

If God would really love me, then I would have a clear sense that there is more to life than mere eating, sleeping, mating and defending - that instead, there is a higher purpose to live for.
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What is ''clear sense of a higher purpose''?

jan.
 
wynn said:
My point is that within a relationship of love, there are things that can reasonably be expected.

For example, if someone claims to love you, but this person never actually has time for you, never actually spends time with you, ignores you when they see you in public - will you still believe this person loves you?
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If the person loves me, it doesn't matter what I believe.

jan.
 
NMSquirrel said:
the same argument would apply to someone who tells you they love you so much that they have to let you go, because being with you is not good for you.
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I might buy that if a vampire told me that.
But not otherwise.


the example you used is biased by the term 'ignore', the rest could be an accidental/unintentional byproduct of their life, where as the term 'ignore' intones intentional..
if they intentionally avoid you, then no they do not love you..but if the avoidance is unintentional then they could still love you.(of course this doesn't speak to my point if they think that your life would be better without them,IE love you enough to let you go, as this would be intentional )
ok so maybe this isn't a good example..
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I meant someone who in private tells me we are friends and all that, but when together in public, behaves as if he doesn't know me.


maybe you are just trying to point out that some ppl claim that they love you when they don't, maybe they do not know what love is...
in this case, you are comparing infallible God to fallible man..
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How can God be distinguished from any other person who doesn't love me?


some would argue that True Love doesn't expect anything.
which comes back to the 'prove that you Love me' question..what is proof that someone Loves you?
i don't think there is a definitive answer, and as such is subjective.
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A Hindu solution to this problem is in roundabout this:

The only relationship that an ordinary, earthly human can have with God, is a relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the relationship is that the human has awe and reverence for the Supreme Personality of Godhead while the Supreme Personality of Godhead is presented as the king of the Universe (ie. He is someone the human never really has any access to). There is no love in this, just awe and reverence, and the Supreme Personality of Godhead in all His splendor.

On the other hand, in the spiritual world, individual souls have a personal relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but they don't know Him as the Supreme Personality of Godhead - they just think that the person they love and feel loved by, is some dashing fellow. They don't know they are involved with God.

IOW, it seems impossible to love God while knowing Him to be God, just as it is impossible to feel loved by God while knowing Him to be God.
 
wynn said:
Not being plagued by doubts as to whether life is worth living or not.




?
How will you know whether they love you or not, if they never seem to show it in ways that you could understand?
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1. Don't get what that has to do with higher purpose.

2. My analogy with air covered that.

jan.
 
wynn,

Then reread the exchange ...
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Makes no difference.

What is ''clear sense of a higher purpose''?

Not being plagued by doubts as to whether life is worth living or not.
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You response could be an answer to the question ''what would make you refrain from committing suicide.


It doesn't explain anything.


No it didn't, as I pointed out.
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I don't know any humans with the type of base consciousness you described.
Yet we all rely on breathing air, whether or not we know it. Come with an apropriate analogy, and we'll further the discussion.



How do you know that God loves you?
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It doesn't matter whether or not I know God loves me, anymore than it matters that I KNOW I need air to breath. Please try and understand.

jan.
 
Jan Ardena said:
You response could be an answer to the question ''what would make you refrain from committing suicide.
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Good question.
In fact, Albert Camus began his "The Myth of Sisyphus" as follows:

There is but one truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide. Judging whether life is or is not worth living amounts to answering the fundamental question of philosophy. All the rest — whether or not the world has three dimensions, whether the mind has nine or twelve categories — comes afterward. These are games; one must first answer.


I don't know any humans with the type of base consciousness you described.
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You mean you don't know anyone whose life is restricted to eating, sleeping ,mating and defending, and who is unhappy with that?


Yet we all rely on breathing air, whether or not we know it. Come with an apropriate analogy, and we'll further the discussion.
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We rely on breathing air, but that doesn't automatically mean we appreciate it.
I almost drowned once. I literally had no air - and all I could think of was whether life is worth living or not. I didn't care about the air.
An extreme situation can occur, but this doesn't automatically mean that the "survival instinct" will kick in and take over.


It doesn't matter whether or not I know God loves me, anymore than it matters that I KNOW I need air to breath. Please try and understand.
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What is there to understand?
Can you explain why it doesn't matter to you whether you know that God loves you or not?
 
NMSquirrel said:
not really a fair question..
How do you 'know' your spouse loves you?
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Why wouldn't it be a fair question?

Given that I am supposed to prove to God that I love Him (or admit that I don't love Him), and that the whole thing is more like an infinite "No, Wynn, that wasn't good enough," then why not seek some proof or evidence of love on God's part too?
 
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