Perhaps heaven and hell exist in many religions because those two termini are useful in converting people. There is always some thought of getting rewarded or punished according to the lifestyle. Heaven and hell is just a tool used by most religions to get more followers.
Can atheists really go to hell?
- Thread starter spuriousmonkey
- Start date
Dreamwalker,
What you just said also implies that religion is there to rule and to govern the state. The justification for the king to be a king. A king is to be obeyed because he is sent by God.
As you have it in Europe: ein König is nicht viel wert, solange er nicht vom Papst zum Kaiser ernannt wird.
What you just said also implies that religion is there to rule and to govern the state. The justification for the king to be a king. A king is to be obeyed because he is sent by God.
As you have it in Europe: ein König is nicht viel wert, solange er nicht vom Papst zum Kaiser ernannt wird.
Of course. It is undoubtalbe that many religions have the aim of gaining followers. Most would only be content when all of mankind follows them.
This of course has various political implications and consequences. Most
of todays prominetn religions have so many followers because they were or are political engaged. If christendom was not chosen as the state religion of Rome, if it was not political motivated, their influences would be much smaller or they would no longer exist.
This of course has various political implications and consequences. Most
of todays prominetn religions have so many followers because they were or are political engaged. If christendom was not chosen as the state religion of Rome, if it was not political motivated, their influences would be much smaller or they would no longer exist.
In the beginning, yes that was the main reason. Faith was always enforced through military force, oppression and the pursue of unbelievers. Things like holy wars, persecution of witches. Not to forget that Christianity was also spread through the Roman empire, and it was spread with force there.
Of course there was always the Christian beliefs, which also spread because people saw some sense in them. But those beliefs are not so extraordinary or uncommon to explain such a great area of importance.
Some parts were also luck, at least in retrospective. If the French would not have repelled Muslim invasions from Africa, Europe might have been controlled by Muslims, turning it into islamistiy country. This would have resultet in Muslim settler in America. This would the result in a majority of Muslims. Alas, the Christian did win and here they are now.
Of course there was always the Christian beliefs, which also spread because people saw some sense in them. But those beliefs are not so extraordinary or uncommon to explain such a great area of importance.
Some parts were also luck, at least in retrospective. If the French would not have repelled Muslim invasions from Africa, Europe might have been controlled by Muslims, turning it into islamistiy country. This would have resultet in Muslim settler in America. This would the result in a majority of Muslims. Alas, the Christian did win and here they are now.
RosaMagika said:
Pretty accurate I think. The church has always been very heavily political and used to run governments/countries as it did itself. Kings would quake before its power, all based on fear. The popes in their day ruled by dictat and by fear, threatening the gullible populace with hellfire and damnation if they fell out of line.
The Catholic Church survived because a Roman emperor thought it'd win him a battle.
The Protestant Reformation would have been still-born if the German princes didn't want a tax break.
The LDS wouldn't have made it out of the Midwest if those early Saints didn't want to fuck their nieces.
Oh, and if Mohammed hadn't butchered the polytheists of Saudi Arabia, no one would give a cursory fuck about Islam.
The Protestant Reformation would have been still-born if the German princes didn't want a tax break.
The LDS wouldn't have made it out of the Midwest if those early Saints didn't want to fuck their nieces.
Oh, and if Mohammed hadn't butchered the polytheists of Saudi Arabia, no one would give a cursory fuck about Islam.
RosaMagika
Incidentally, the connection was originally not so abstract – sacrifice was a way to represent that spiritual hunger, a way of giving what you needed to survive in order to receive a spiritual return. Call it "spiritual survival".
But we do, and not all of them are valid – once again, most are temporary solutions, like taking an aspirin for pain, or Prozac for depression. They're temporary solutions that we repeat endlessly. That's because they address the symptoms and not the cause. Celebrities flock to Kabbalah and Scientology centres because they find comfort in the spirituality they represent – and they're fads for exactly the reason you mention: they're a cop-out for facing the reality. However, you don't allow for the possibility that the reality is that they have no relationship with God, and no way of facing fears and emotions that are simply beyond their frame of reference. You can become a Buddhist monk and expand that frame of reference until you're blue in the face, but it will never restore your relationship with God. It will be a temporary addiction – as paradoxical as that sounds.
There isn't much that scares me, but what I perceive is a pressing need in people to justify their beliefs instead of just having them and being sure of them and living them. Everything I write in these forums are just chaff for the fire if I don't live them. If I didn't have that conviction, maybe I really would have been scared.
Christianity is not a rationalization (although it can lead to them, just like any paradigm), or even a compensation, it's an abstraction – a worldview that functions less to explain (some don't realize this) and more to direct. Our need for God does not lie on a physical level – that's just a side-effect – but on a spiritual one. Things like camaraderie, music, poetry and romantic evenings also fulfil this spiritual need to an extent, but that's because they depend on our ability to experience spiritual events. They bring out our ability to perceive the spiritual – many things can do that. But if our spiritual needs were only temporary, these things could be called muses and that would be the end of it. The truth is our spiritual lives reach beyond our physical needs, and that mysterious, non-scientific part of it cannot be satisfied like we satisfy ourselves with a good meal or a good movie, it needs to be sustained. Only God could sustain a spiritual life like food sustains a physical one.
Incidentally, the connection was originally not so abstract – sacrifice was a way to represent that spiritual hunger, a way of giving what you needed to survive in order to receive a spiritual return. Call it "spiritual survival".
No, anything but. You seem genuine, thoughtful and sensitive. I'm trying to show you that your antagonism towards Christianity is unfounded, using the experience of suffering as an example. A person can be perfectly self-sufficient without losing his sensitivity towards others. It requires a genuine capacity to feel, just like religion requires the capacity to have faith, even if you have no immediate need for it. It's no coincidence that the topics of God and suffering frequently occur in the same discussion – often at opposite ends of it.
That's my emphasis as well: sin may "only" lead to spiritual death, but it has real manifestations and real consequences in our physical lives. What you said above is the classic "you will reap what you sow". I hold that it remains true whether you realize or accept the consequences or not. How many people continue to smoke even after they develop lung cancer? It's not because they're stupid, but because they have made peace with the consequences. The effort is just more than they feel is worth it against the immediate rewards. It is quite possible to make peace with the idea that you will die, or that you don't need God, if you are already content with the status quo. That's often why people resent my faith: I make things uncomfortable if I tell them that they shouldn't just accept life at face value, because it's not "all there is". The usual response is to bring up examples of things that are supposed to fall in the same realm – from flying pink elephants, purple spotted squids and Santa Claus to the Tooth fairy. Because those are things they know aren't "real", they (very ironically) fall back on them.
That's a very fatalistic and abstract "could". Sometimes the truth is that if people had acted differently, things really could have turned out differently. It will drive you mad to dwell on those "what if's", but that's because they are actually plausible alternatives. Believing in God won't change your reality, but it will be a different perception of it that will change the way you act on it, the choices you make, the spiritual life you lead. It's a hard adjustment sometimes, and the benefits aren't always obvious, but it will affect others as well – and that's as important as it gets.
And why shouldn’t that apply to religion?
If people didn't need coping mechanisms they wouldn't have created them... If things could have been otherwise it would have
But we do, and not all of them are valid – once again, most are temporary solutions, like taking an aspirin for pain, or Prozac for depression. They're temporary solutions that we repeat endlessly. That's because they address the symptoms and not the cause. Celebrities flock to Kabbalah and Scientology centres because they find comfort in the spirituality they represent – and they're fads for exactly the reason you mention: they're a cop-out for facing the reality. However, you don't allow for the possibility that the reality is that they have no relationship with God, and no way of facing fears and emotions that are simply beyond their frame of reference. You can become a Buddhist monk and expand that frame of reference until you're blue in the face, but it will never restore your relationship with God. It will be a temporary addiction – as paradoxical as that sounds.Because you are either looking for salvation or think you already found it one way or the other. It's that nebulous reality called "fulfilment" – that quest for reaching your full potential and being exactly who you mean to be. Salvation is the availability of the eternal life God means us to have, which is the realization of the temporal one He gave us.
You'll only have to force it if it differs drastically from what you're already doing, and it doesn't sound as if it is. You only have to change if change is required. God requires that you be honest about who you are, even when it only means confessing your sins to Him. Honesty and humility requires at least the willingness to change. And yes, I know - that applies to me, too.
On the contrary, I think only people without ideals may never feel the need to change. The rest are simply content with their life lacking direction (or have convinced themselves of that). Every time you obey a law – whether a moral or social or government law – you are submitting to an ideal. Laws represent exactly "how things should be, but isn't". If things really couldn't be otherwise, we would have accepted crime and criminal behaviour and said "if things could be otherwise, they would be".
What you sense is concern, or maybe frustration. I doubt it will make sense to you, but there it is. Even with all my doubts and uncertainties, with everything I know or don't know, it is distressing to see people simply content with "not knowing", as if there's nothing to know.
There isn't much that scares me, but what I perceive is a pressing need in people to justify their beliefs instead of just having them and being sure of them and living them. Everything I write in these forums are just chaff for the fire if I don't live them. If I didn't have that conviction, maybe I really would have been scared.
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atheist cant go to my home as they dont believe in me only religious zealots have the right or the wrong if you prefer
Jenyar,
Unfounded?!
My disgust for Christianity is for Christianity as I know it. Of course, say, the Christianity I know is not the "true" Christianity ...
Christianity is, IMO:
1. It's sexist.
You may say that it is all about metaphorization. But, as a woman, I simply cannot accept that I should worship a male God and a male Saviour. The choice of metaphors should be more careful.
Rewrite the Bible then, so that it won't be sexist anymore. Oh yes -- what will you do with that verse that forbids women to speak in church?
2. Christians have, in the past, done a lot of harm to non-Christians. They still do. Not all Christians -- but it is not my problem that all Christians call themselves that way.
If it would be my way, Christians would keep very quiet, and never grumble again.
3. And yes, this is some 1500 years of pagan rage speaking. Rage against Christian pride, vanity and cowardice.
Beware of those who call themselves good people.
So you think my explanation of suffering is wrong?
No, this may go only for some. There is a lot of smokers who think "It won't get me."
And yes, I dare say, that smokers are stupid.
If you jump off a bridge into a river, and hope you won't get wet, you are stupid.
I don't think this is the case. What some people think "all there is" is most likely something totally different from what you think that "all there is". You're speaking different languages, and so are we.
If they could act differently, they would. They didn't because they couldn't.
Dwelling on what-if's means that you are not accepting reality.
You have a walk there before you, if you wish to understand how "If it could be otherwise, it would be otherwise." and "Whatever you do, you do the maximum in the given circumstances." work.
Who said that it doesn't apply?
And you know what the cause is? The activity of our brain.
Keep your brain busy, and it won't go astray, and so you will not need coping mechanisms.
Ahhhh, but work is so teeeeeedious.
It suits us right -- we are punished for not accepting the reality of our brain.
Maybe now you can begin to understand what I meant by "it is a business-like decision to consciously rationally convert to a certain religion".
You'll need to re-conceptualize this "salvation" for me then. As it is, it means nothing specific to me.
I am exactly who I mean to be. But it takes some Zen to understand that.
If I am not different, this is due to me not thinking differently.
I may strongly believe that getting up at 6 is a good thing, and I would like to get up at 6 every day. But I don't. This is because my belief that getting up at 6 is not meant strong enough. When I will mean it strong enough, I'll also get up at 6.
Oh, it doesn't differ?! Do I believe in Jesus? Do I believe in the Christian God? Do I believe in eternal life?! I don't.
You know what's wrong witht he belief in eternal life and all that? It keeps people AWAY from this world issues. They are not at it.
Anyone who believes in eternal life, considers Earth to be a mere station on the way.
Like if you go visit your parents who live a 4-hour drive away from you. On your way there, you stop at a diner, have lunch, tank gas, and continue with your journey. You are not much interested into what that diner looks like, not really. You may complain. You may like the napkins. But you sure have no intention on staying there, for you are "just passing through". You have no intention to fix the leaking roof of the diner. Two men are arguing at the table next to you. You only tell them to shut up (that is, if you have the guts to do so), you don't go there and try to help them resolve their differences. You won't be there to see the result. You are "just passing through."
And life on Earth is like that diner to you: it feeds you, it gives you temporary shelter. But you're not going to invest into that diner.
This is why Earth is being destroyed, because humans believing in eternal life are not taking Earth seriously. Their bodies are here, but their minds are somewhere else. No wonder they cannot solve earthly problems.
What right do you have to feel distressed? It is your loving brethren and sisters -- and God -- your God -- gave them FREE WILL to do what they choose. And you do believe in that, don't you?
If you don't like them: leave them alone or kill them. But don't be "distressed" because of them. Don't pity them. Pity is an act of pride.
Unfounded?!
My disgust for Christianity is for Christianity as I know it. Of course, say, the Christianity I know is not the "true" Christianity ...
Christianity is, IMO:
1. It's sexist.
You may say that it is all about metaphorization. But, as a woman, I simply cannot accept that I should worship a male God and a male Saviour. The choice of metaphors should be more careful.
Rewrite the Bible then, so that it won't be sexist anymore. Oh yes -- what will you do with that verse that forbids women to speak in church?
2. Christians have, in the past, done a lot of harm to non-Christians. They still do. Not all Christians -- but it is not my problem that all Christians call themselves that way.
If it would be my way, Christians would keep very quiet, and never grumble again.
3. And yes, this is some 1500 years of pagan rage speaking. Rage against Christian pride, vanity and cowardice.
Beware of those who call themselves good people.
So you think my explanation of suffering is wrong?
No, this may go only for some. There is a lot of smokers who think "It won't get me."
And yes, I dare say, that smokers are stupid.
If you jump off a bridge into a river, and hope you won't get wet, you are stupid.
I don't think this is the case. What some people think "all there is" is most likely something totally different from what you think that "all there is". You're speaking different languages, and so are we.
If they could act differently, they would. They didn't because they couldn't.
Dwelling on what-if's means that you are not accepting reality.
You have a walk there before you, if you wish to understand how "If it could be otherwise, it would be otherwise." and "Whatever you do, you do the maximum in the given circumstances." work.
Who said that it doesn't apply?
And you know what the cause is? The activity of our brain.
Keep your brain busy, and it won't go astray, and so you will not need coping mechanisms.
Ahhhh, but work is so teeeeeedious.
It suits us right -- we are punished for not accepting the reality of our brain.
Maybe now you can begin to understand what I meant by "it is a business-like decision to consciously rationally convert to a certain religion".
You'll need to re-conceptualize this "salvation" for me then. As it is, it means nothing specific to me.
I am exactly who I mean to be. But it takes some Zen to understand that.
If I am not different, this is due to me not thinking differently.
I may strongly believe that getting up at 6 is a good thing, and I would like to get up at 6 every day. But I don't. This is because my belief that getting up at 6 is not meant strong enough. When I will mean it strong enough, I'll also get up at 6.
Oh, it doesn't differ?! Do I believe in Jesus? Do I believe in the Christian God? Do I believe in eternal life?! I don't.
You know what's wrong witht he belief in eternal life and all that? It keeps people AWAY from this world issues. They are not at it.
Anyone who believes in eternal life, considers Earth to be a mere station on the way.
Like if you go visit your parents who live a 4-hour drive away from you. On your way there, you stop at a diner, have lunch, tank gas, and continue with your journey. You are not much interested into what that diner looks like, not really. You may complain. You may like the napkins. But you sure have no intention on staying there, for you are "just passing through". You have no intention to fix the leaking roof of the diner. Two men are arguing at the table next to you. You only tell them to shut up (that is, if you have the guts to do so), you don't go there and try to help them resolve their differences. You won't be there to see the result. You are "just passing through."
And life on Earth is like that diner to you: it feeds you, it gives you temporary shelter. But you're not going to invest into that diner.
This is why Earth is being destroyed, because humans believing in eternal life are not taking Earth seriously. Their bodies are here, but their minds are somewhere else. No wonder they cannot solve earthly problems.
What right do you have to feel distressed? It is your loving brethren and sisters -- and God -- your God -- gave them FREE WILL to do what they choose. And you do believe in that, don't you?
If you don't like them: leave them alone or kill them. But don't be "distressed" because of them. Don't pity them. Pity is an act of pride.
Icarus Wings
Registered Member
I hate the Christian idea that you can only go into heaven if you are a Christian. And that that is the only basic criteria. So basicaly, you could be the biggest douche on the planet, and all you have to do is ask Jesus to forgive you every night and you get a nice reserved parking place in front of the pearly gates.
But say you were a realy great guy, you took good care of your kids, you're good at your job, and you love your neighbor, and all that good stuff.
But you're an atheist.
Well, my friend, according to Christianity, you get to toast in Hell for the rest of all existance.
Thats f*cked up.
But say you were a realy great guy, you took good care of your kids, you're good at your job, and you love your neighbor, and all that good stuff.
But you're an atheist.
Well, my friend, according to Christianity, you get to toast in Hell for the rest of all existance.
Thats f*cked up.
As you said, some people are that stupid.
What are you complaining about? If you don't want to go to God, nobody's forcing you. And if you do, nobody's keeping you. The god of atheism is Chance. There's a chance that you might go to heaven, after all - the heaven of chance: total entropy. We call that hell, you call it death.
Why should anybody go to be with a God they've made an effort to deny all their life? And why shouldn't there be a place for someone who truly wants to go there?
So its ok to be a complete asshole so long as your christian you'll still go to heaven because you wanna go there, surely everyone wants to go to this supposed paradise but does it really exist?
If christians go there regardless of what kind of person they are then is it really heaven when it could be full of assholes just because they're christian? Heaven is supposed to be your reward for being a good christian, but even bad christians go there so i hope you have a nice time with them.
If christians go there regardless of what kind of person they are then is it really heaven when it could be full of assholes just because they're christian? Heaven is supposed to be your reward for being a good christian, but even bad christians go there so i hope you have a nice time with them.
Not regardless of what kind of person they are. Being an asshole doesn't exactly show your grasp of the concept of love. But being an asshole is not unforgiveable either. If you can forgive someone for being one, so can God. But persisting in sin is the quickest way to avoid heaven. If someone persists in being hateful he'll become more than just an asshole after a while.
Let me put it this way: when you die, sin gets ripped out of your heart and thrown in hell where it belongs... all the hate, all the anger, all the selfishness and immorality. Speaking for myself, it will be good riddance. If the good that remains identifies you to God - if it can still be recognized as you - you'll find peace with Him. If sin identifies you, you'll go where sin goes and not be with God. Where the spirit goes the body follows.
You get to decide who you are, and whether you want to know God in spite of your sins or not. That choice is characterized by change - without change, you are still who you were before you made the choice. God knows what you hide and what you express, nobody can fool Him, whether they say they're a Christian or not.
Let me put it this way: when you die, sin gets ripped out of your heart and thrown in hell where it belongs... all the hate, all the anger, all the selfishness and immorality. Speaking for myself, it will be good riddance. If the good that remains identifies you to God - if it can still be recognized as you - you'll find peace with Him. If sin identifies you, you'll go where sin goes and not be with God. Where the spirit goes the body follows.
You get to decide who you are, and whether you want to know God in spite of your sins or not. That choice is characterized by change - without change, you are still who you were before you made the choice. God knows what you hide and what you express, nobody can fool Him, whether they say they're a Christian or not.
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A good atheist is only fooling himself. Being "good" doesn't make him a Christian, and even if it did, it can't pronounce him innocent from sin. Doing good doesn't make you "good", just like doing something wrong doesn't make someone "bad". Someone has to separate good from bad. If he confesses his sins and accepts Christ's atonement for them, he will be a Christian without having to make much of a change. But at that moment he decides to have God make that separation.
Not fooling God doesn't only mean you can't pretend to know Him, it also means that you can't pretend not to know Him.
Not fooling God doesn't only mean you can't pretend to know Him, it also means that you can't pretend not to know Him.
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You argument seems to be based on the assumption that heaven and hell exist.
And you assume they don't. For the sake of argument I'll accept them as metaphorical representations of the ultimate separation between good and evil, which is only possible with God. "Hell" is what you simply call death - which I call existence without God, or under God's judgment - and "heaven" is life without sin or the effects of sin.
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