Can atheists really go to hell?

Lemming3k said:
So its ok to be a complete asshole so long as your christian you'll still go to heaven because you wanna go there, surely everyone wants to go to this supposed paradise but does it really exist?
If christians go there regardless of what kind of person they are then is it really heaven when it could be full of assholes just because they're christian? Heaven is supposed to be your reward for being a good christian, but even bad christians go there so i hope you have a nice time with them.
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1) Christians do not go to heaven as a reward for being Good. Christians have eternity with God for believing in the will of God.

2) There will be no "assholes" in heaven upon the resurrection. Christians will be changed and will overcome all human shortcomings.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Someone has to separate good from bad. If he confesses his sins and accepts Christ's atonement for them, he will be a Christian without having to make much of a change. But at that moment he decides to have God make that separation.
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When do you expect them to confess their sins? I know many christians that never have. And theres something else i dont get, how was christ punished for mans sins when the bible states everyone is accountable only for their own sins? Also if jesus was punished for all mans sins, i dont have to worry he's already payed for any i commit, but i have a feeling i wont be saved.
A good atheist is only fooling himself
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Then theres a lot of fools out there that disagree with you, and i believe anybody can be good regardless of beliefs, if that makes me a fool so be it.
1) Christians do not go to heaven as a reward for being Good. Christians have eternity with God for believing in the will of God.
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A reward for believing then, good and bad is irrelevant then.
2) There will be no "assholes" in heaven upon the resurrection. Christians will be changed and will overcome all human shortcomings.
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I'd hope so it wont be much of a place for you otherwise.
 
Dreamwalker said:
Perhaps heaven and hell exist in many religions because those two termini are useful in converting people.
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In the case of the catholic religion delete "convert" insert "brainwash".
 
Adstar said:
2) There will be no "assholes" in heaven upon the resurrection. Christians will be changed and will overcome all human shortcomings.
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If this kind of life (in heaven) is meaningful, then why didn't God do this with everybody in the first place?

Do people have no free will in heaven? If you say no, then why argue that it is useful here? If you say yes, then why wouldn't they sin, just like they do on Earth? Is it because they have overcome all human shortcomings? Well, that means God could have done it right away--that is, given us free will AND have us not sin.

The argument makes no sense from any direction.
 
Jenyar,


Why should anybody go to be with a God they've made an effort to deny all their life?
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Deny?! Are you saying that I deny God?

"Deny" implies that I know something, but do as if I wouldn't know it.

If I say that I am 20, I am denying my true age, as I do know that I am not 20.

If you say that I *deny* God, you are also saying that I *do know* God.
 
Do people have no free will in heaven? If you say no, then why argue that it is useful here? If you say yes, then why wouldn't they sin, just like they do on Earth? Is it because they have overcome all human shortcomings? Well, that means God could have done it right away--that is, given us free will AND have us not sin.
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Good point.

God creates human bodies/brains.
God creates souls.
God creates free will.

God is therefore directly responsible for any evil resulting from his creations(especially considering that he is all-knowing). Where exactly does my tendency to commit evil/good come from if not from God? Can I be to blame even though I had no part in my own creation? Lets see...evil couldn't result from the nature of my brain, because God created my brain. It couldn't result from the nature of my soul, because God made my soul. And it couldn't result from my free will, because God created my free will, and gave this same "copy" of free will to every one else as well. Well, that gets me off the hook. God, you have some explaining to do.

Free will is a silly concept when you think about it. If God blessed us all with free will, then we are slaves to this free will. God might as well just skip the drama here on earth, and send us straight to heaven or hell.
 
Well, as I understand it, god gave us a choice in how we live our lifes.
We can choose if we want to behave in a way to please him or if we want to
go to hell.
I do not believe in all that crap about god, but I do think we have power over
our minds and decisions. Resulting from that, everybody should be able to choose if he wants to act "good" or "bad". I do not think anyone is utterly compelled to hurt others or to help them.
 
as god does not exist, try looking around for other reasons for your existence? The body and the mind exist in all forms of creatures in the universe. The mind has the capability to "travel on" and if your god gave you free will, why did he/she/it give other so called "soulless" creatures free will when, according to the catholic church, only "mankind" has a soul? No my friend, free will is the ability to harbour greed and ego's big enough to believe that we are so superior to other animals. Lets face it, if mankind was not on this planet, how perfectly balanced it would be, so why did your god put us here then, to unbalance and systematically destroy a beautiful habitat called Earth.
 
Well, you could argue that god has told mankind to dominate the earth. I do not remember the exact quote from the bible, but who cares?
Anyway, dominion means that the balance has to collapse, otherwise no one could rule.
As to why god did this, who knows? I suppose those who believe will say that it was his divine will and his love for manking or something like that.
 
Well, as I understand it, god gave us a choice in how we live our lifes. We can choose if we want to behave in a way to please him or if we want to go to hell.
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Yes, God supposedly gave us a choice. But what does this really mean? We are still confined to act according to the nature of this free will. We are slaves to this free will. God created every aspect of us, from the physics of our brains to the "physics" of free will. Control is therefore an illusion, and this is all God gave us.

If you give free will to a rock, it will still be a rock. If you give free will to a human, it will still be human. God created humans... God is in control... God is responsible... end of story.
 
Adstar said:
2) There will be no "assholes" in heaven upon the resurrection. Christians will be changed and will overcome all human shortcomings.
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ok,so how are you gonna crap? :D
 
Lemming3k said:
1) Christians do not go to heaven as a reward for being Good. Christians have eternity with God for believing in the will of God.
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A reward for believing then, good and bad is irrelevant then.
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Good and bad are irrelevant because what we call Good is not Good its only less bad. We believe that no man is good. When we say Good we mean perfect/without sin.

Through Jesus we now have access to a gift. The gift of salvation. A gift cannot be paid for. For if a gift is paid for it is no longer a gift is it. It becomes a wage or a payment. Salvation is not something we can earn or payoff like a mortgage, because all the good things we can do are immediately cancelled out when ever we do something bad.

So a person who knows they are poor (sinner) and knows they can never earn salvation (by being Good because they know they are not Good) Is overjoyed and appreciative when they are offered salvation as a gift.

Why does God offer this gift?

Because He knows that those who accept the gift know they can never earn it. They are not prideful or arrogant in thinking that they can reach perfection by themselves. But knowing they are sinners and being remorseful of that fact demonstrate in their minds that they are in agreement with God.

Jesus said he came as a doctor and that doctors come for the sick not for the healthy. But the fact is we are all sick. It's just some people know it, while some others think they can cure themselves. While others, still delude themselves into thinking that they are healthy.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
RosaMagika said:
Adstar,

Yes, yes! Who needs actions when you got words, right!?
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Hello again Rose :)

The gift of salvation is not a licence to sin and to to be uncaring for others. without love we (Christians) are nothing.

1 Corinthians 13
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

4Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

All Praise The Ancient of Days
 
RosaMagika said:
If you say that I *deny* God, you are also saying that I *do know* God.
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I wasn't speaking about anybody in particular, but it's interesting that you responded.

Let's just say you accept some information, and reject some information, but you deny that either comprises any real knowledge. Better? We do that frequently in other fields, like politics - we reject certain things as lies, and accept other things as truth, but it doesn't mean we *deny* democracy.

Knowing something and knowing everything are two different things... I think you already know something about God - you certainly understand more than some of the Christians you describe - but you're not willing to include God in that understanding.
 
Jenyar,


1. My position is that we don't "know" or "understand" the world and ourselves in the strict sense of the words "know" and "understand". But we are acquainted with the world and ourselves and are able to live with them. This "being able" makes *all the difference* though, as there are very different kinds and degrees of it.


2.
I think you already know something about God - you certainly understand more than some of the Christians you describe - but you're not willing to include God in that understanding.
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It is simply part of my agnostic outlook to think I cannot and should not make claims about God's characteristics.
It is not that I am not willing: I say that I cannot. I think it presumptous to claim you know God's characteristics.

What is it exactly that you oppose?
Agnosticism? Is agnosticism, in your view, a kind of escapism?
 
Lemming3k said:
When do you expect them to confess their sins? I know many christians that never have. And theres something else i dont get, how was christ punished for mans sins when the bible states everyone is accountable only for their own sins? Also if jesus was punished for all mans sins, i dont have to worry he's already payed for any i commit, but i have a feeling i wont be saved.
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The question isn't when I expect them to confess their sins - it's what God expects. Those people might claim they are christians, but this is how you can find out if they really are:
1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.​
To answer your second question: Christ wasn't punished for our sins, He bore them. "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God" (2 Cor. 5:21). The forgiveness of sins is made possible by his resurrection, not by his death or his suffering. He carried the penalty of everyone's sin on Him - but not the punishment, because He was justified by God. Those who believe in Him place their penalty on Him (being "dead to sin") and therefore expect no eternal punishment, but for those who don't there is still the normal penalty and the punishment that goes with it.

If He didn't die for you, He died for nothing.
Then theres a lot of fools out there that disagree with you, and i believe anybody can be good regardless of beliefs, if that makes me a fool so be it.
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How do you measure 'good'? Where did you get that measurement?
 
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Adstar,

My experiences with some Christians and their love is that this "love" is making them blind and deaf to the cries of other people.

Like when my grandfather died, his wife, my step-grandmother, thought that I should convert to Catholicism -- to "honor my grandfather", for this is apparently reason and obligation enough to convert. I was my grandfather's only grandchild, but he was constantly rejecting me -- because I am a girl, and because I wasn't baptized. (I don't know which was worse to him.)


My experience is that people who *do not* go out saying "we must love" are much more loving and understanding than those who preach love.

Those who preach love and understanding *lack* love and understanding the most themselves.

Those who preach love and understanding *need* love and understanding the most themselves.
 
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