Can atheists really go to hell?

[Jenyar]

So loving others, as Christ would have you do, or spreading his message of love is pointless if there is no hell? Why? Does "love thy neighbor" carry no weight without a horrendous eternal punishment option? It may not have the grandiose mythical proportions or the "salvation" and heavenly reward attached, but still, it's not a bad idea.

I wasn't speaking of our relationship with other people, but of Christ's relationship with us. If love was all that was needed, I'm sure He could have achieved more with bringing his Father into it.

But why did God need to intervene in the first place?

I've run across a disturbing number of Christians who, it seems, cannot even enjoy life before death if they are not certain that all the bad souls are being properly roasted below them.

I've come across many people who live that way, but they were trampling people in this life instead of the next. Selfish pleasure is overrated, either way.

Even without the prospect of Heaven or Hell, life can involve a great deal of both pain and pleasure, and I see no reason why our actions here require an eternity of bliss or suffering to supply them with meaning.

It's a matter of perspective. Christian have their hell in this life as much as anybody, but at least they can always find hope in that it's all the hell they'll ever have to face. Suffering just would have had no meaning otherwise. And to be honest, that's what most people struggle with.

What really raises one's indignation against suffering is not suffering intrinsically, but the senselessness of suffering. - Friedrich Nietzsche​

 

[JustARide]

It's a matter of perspective. Christian have their hell in this life as much as anybody, but at least they can always find hope in that it's all the hell they'll ever have to face. Suffering just would have had no meaning otherwise. And to be honest, that's what most people struggle with.

It should be noted atheists also believe this life is the only hell they'll have to face -- as you said, a matter of perspective.

While I agree that senseless suffering is what troubles us most, I don't think lack of eternal reward/punishment immediately zaps all "meaning" from suffering. After all, many will still suffer for good causes: to save others, to make the world a better place, to liberate. About this time, Christians usually point out that suffering -- the result of sin -- is the natural product of free will, without which the whole system would <i>surely</i> be pointless.

That does not, of course, provide context and meaning for the majority of suffering -- disease, natural causes, accidental death, murder, etc. -- but it does not entirely negate the value of suffering either.

Our need to cast all suffering as meaningful does not necessarily make our self-important fantasies true, any more than watching Fox News makes Iraq a gleeful wonderland of peace and democracy.

“The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile but that it is indifferent, but if we can come to terms with that indifference, then our existence as a species can have genuine meaning. However vast the darkness, we must supply our own light.”
<b>— Stanley Kubrick</b>​

Josh

 

[water]

About suffering, from the POV of Zen:

We suffer because we have the wrong wishes.

Very, very simple.

 

[Hastein]

About suffering, from the POV of Zen:

We suffer because we have the wrong wishes.

Very, very simple.

Suffering is caused by the entropy of the universe. Once one need is fullfilled, another one is needed. Pleasure, therefore, is simply a state of rest between two modes of suffering. You can hardly deny suffering because it is the most powerful force in our universe. Putting a burning iron on your skin can hardly be willed away through a wish (although Tibetan Monks seem to have come fairly close).

 

[Dreamwalker]

I just thought of an answer for
"Can atheists really go to hell?"

How about:
Don´t know before you try!

better ignore this and keep talking about zen.

 

[Hastein]

That does not, of course, provide context and meaning for the majority of suffering -- disease, natural causes, accidental death, murder, etc. -- but it does not entirely negate the value of suffering either.

All of these things have meaning and PURPOSE in the larger context of natural systems. It is the inevitable result of the humanist-pragmatic thinking following the Judeo-Christian conception of the universe that most people today see the unvierse as nihilistic because it is so ONLY to humans. They accuse the universe, the very thing that sustains them, as being indifferent, when in actuality it is our greatest 'gift'. In the time before these death worshipping religions, ancient civilizations didn't apply personal meanings to death, but accepted it as a natural return. Suffering was a challenge to be overcome and each day was fullfilling in that never ending struggle. Life is in itself a purpose and man is the vessel of nature looking back at itself. You don't need a god or some ideology (Marxism comes to mind) to give purpose to existence.

 

[water]

Suffering is caused by the entropy of the universe. Once one need is fullfilled, another one is needed. Pleasure, therefore, is simply a state of rest between two modes of suffering. You can hardly deny suffering because it is the most powerful force in our universe. Putting a burning iron on your skin can hardly be willed away through a wish (although Tibetan Monks seem to have come fairly close).

That's not how I mean it.
If you have a wound, you feel pain, by all means.

But, and here's the clue to evaluation, it is up to you whther you choose to suffer at this pain.
You can accept this pain, and see if you can alleviate it -- by seeking medical help and such.

But you can also suffer at this pain, pitying yourself or thinking that you should/could/would be doing somethng else. In this case, you are *not accepting* the reality of pain -- since your wishes are somewhere else.

 

[Hastein]

Well in that case I'm a moron. It is often difficult to convey multiple meanings over the internet.

 

[Neildo]

We suffer because we have the wrong wishes.

It's actually, "suffering is caused by desire". Even simpler!

- N

 

[JustARide]

"Suffering is caused by American Idol."

Anyone interested in forming a religion around that? If so, I'm in.

Josh

 

[Jenyar]

We suffer because we sympathise with those who suffer. There's nothing wrong with that, and nothing to flee from or to deny. It's the one faculty we have that we cannot easily dismiss. It shows our sensitivity towards the system that sustains us - and in contrast, our disappointment when it doesn't. When nature fails us, we need to be able to count on each other, and how much can we trust each other?

I think the feeling of being alone in our suffering is much worse than anything else we fear.

And since we're all lemmings, whether we embrace our fate or not, we all realize that in death we will be ultimately alone. In death, every counterweight that permitted us to have significance in this universe comes crashing down on what we used to call "life". At that stage, nothing we did, believed, or thought we knew makes any difference whatsoever. Unless there's a God.

 

[TheERK]

We suffer because that's the way it is. Animals who suffer survive better.

Sorry, but it isn't really much deeper than that.

 

[water]

Neildo,

It's actually, "suffering is caused by desire". Even simpler!

But not all desires cause suffering.
The desire for you to poo actually brings you relief, when you comply with it.
Hehe.



Josh,

"Suffering is caused by American Idol."

Yup, too much watchin' television got me chasing dreams ...

 

[Jenyar]

We suffer because that's the way it is. Animals who suffer survive better.

Sorry, but it isn't really much deeper than that.

Just the fact that it's such a controversial issue has already made it deeper than that. Or how do you define "depth"?

Not that it hasn't been said before...

"Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"​

 

[TheERK]

Just the fact that it's such a controversial issue has already made it deeper than that. Or how do you define "depth"?

Perhaps 'depth', in this context, simply concerns the following question: how complicated is the answer?

Also, just because some people turn it into something controversial doesn't mean it actually is. To people who understand evolution, the reason for suffering is painstakingly (no pun intended) obvious: suffering is a quick and dirty way to make animals avoid certain behaviours.

Any other explanation appears to be hand-waving. I have yet to see a decent argument for an alternate reason for suffering.

 

[TheERK]

In death, every counterweight that permitted us to have significance in this universe comes crashing down on what we used to call "life". At that stage, nothing we did, believed, or thought we knew makes any difference whatsoever. Unless there's a God.

This is nonsense. To suggest that nothing we do (before death) makes any difference whatsoever is ridiculous. Do you think that everything your great-great-grandparents did was meaningless? If so, you have to admit that your own life is meaningless; you wouldn't be here without them. Just because you die doesn't mean everyone else dies at the same time.

God has nothing to do with it.

 

[Jenyar]

This is nonsense. To suggest that nothing we do (before death) makes any difference whatsoever is ridiculous. Do you think that everything your great-great-grandparents did was meaningless? If so, you have to admit that your own life is meaningless; you wouldn't be here without them. Just because you die doesn't mean everyone else dies at the same time.

On the contrary, I believe history provides the context in which we live. But whether what they did was meaningful can only be answered by them. If their existence was simply fodder for ours, that hardly makes it meaningful. Whether they died or are still alive is of no significance - as long as they existed and multiplied, we're fine. No need to bring meaning into it. As you said, it's not much deeper than that.

Unless what they did was meaningful to us in another sense, such as if we like what they left us. That includes their belief in God or gods. And we decide that. So even things that were most meaningful to them have only a 50/50 chance of being meaningful to their decendents. That's why God asked Israel to keep their faith and teach it to their children - so that each generation wouldn't have to relearn what the previous generations had been taught.

Deuteronomy 4:9
Only be careful, and watch yourselves closely so that you do not forget the things your eyes have seen or let them slip from your heart as long as you live. Teach them to your children and to their children after them.​

Nobody should discard history lightly, no matter how much we disagree with what it includes. But we can only do that if we are interested in preserving meaning. Nature couldn't care less what we thought or did, and if we were truly animals, neither would we. Whether we undertand gravity or not makes little difference to whether we fall down or not. Understanding suffering as only an evolutionary reality is just an animalistic acceptance of it, which bears very little relation to the depth of experience we historically attached to it. To echo Nietzsche again, if God gave reason to our life, then life without God is meaningless. That is especially true if our own existence should be dedicated to the survival of those who come after us. After all, we are the "fit" ones who have survived for the sake of survival. Our failures are potentially humanity's failure.

We're not really permitted to enjoy, because enjoyment is a weakness in the battle for survival. Yet survival is meaningless without enjoyment. What are we left with?

Because if God does not give us meaning, or permit us to enjoy his gift of life, then what does? That's why the Teacher could only find hedonistic solutions to the problem of meaninglesness, and eventually had to conlcude that they leaves much to be desired. To quote once again from Ecclesiastics:

There was a man all alone;
he had neither son nor brother.
There was no end to his toil,
yet his eyes were not content with his wealth.
"For whom am I toiling," he asked,
"and why am I depriving myself of enjoyment?"
This too is meaningless-
a miserable business!​

 

[water]

Well in that case I'm a moron. It is often difficult to convey multiple meanings over the internet.

Dontcha worry.
Misunderstandings are the essence of uderstanding. Of course, only if you accept that there is a misunderstanding, and are willing to clear it up.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

"...we all realize that in death we will be ultimately alone."
*************
M*W: I don't believe at death we will be "ultimately alone." We don't really know what awaits us other than what we've been told by people who haven't experienced death. Having recently lost my mother whom I cared for two years before she died, she had visions of loved ones who preceded her. She talked to them. I knew her time was imminent. She looked forward to seeing them, because she thought they were real, and they may have been! Who am I to say she was hallucinating? When my father died, I felt his presence at his funeral. I heard his voice in my left ear as they were lowering him into the grave. He told me not to cry, he was still here. I've felt his presence ever since.

Death--there is no such thing. It's an illusion. It's a transition from physical existence to the spiritual dimension. If we cross over that dimension, we lose our physical life. Once in the spiritual state, the spirit has no limitations of being. Transiting the dimension is a time for happiness and laughter. It's the ultimate reward. Our physical existence is torture, because for x number of years our spirit must haul this heavy glob of flesh. When we discard the flesh, our spirit is free, and we are never alone. We have returned to God.

 

[TheERK]

Jenyar:

That's all very nice, but you haven't given a single reason why God has anything to do with it.