Body Signals Redux: Proving Mormonism

[Xelasnave.1947]

"3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

"4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

"5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."

Billy could you put this into your own words please.
Alex

 

[Ophiolite]

Again, I make the point that 15 million people believe the story so much that they identify as Mormon. The fact that, at first glance, you find it unbelievable, doesn't tell us very much.

But this is religion. All religions offer stories that have little, if any, solid proof. Generally, the excuse is that the proof has been lost to history in various ways.

The fact is, the vast majority of the world's population, that's 7 billion people, believe in one or another kind of religion. And they're not all stupid or ridiculous people. It would seem to follow, therefore, that it is not completely unreasonable to hold religious beliefs that may seem, at first glance, to be ridiculous. Chances are that there are subtleties and complications to the doctrine that don't readily present themselves at first glance.

Speaking personally, it annoys me that some non-believers are ready to dismiss virtually the whole of religion without bothering to learn about it or truly considering what it has to teach. Religion is a very wide topic. It's not all bad. And it certainly is not all simplistic nonsense.

I have a copy of the Book of Mormon. I have read quite a bit of it. Perhaps it was pure luck, but Xelasnave has arrived at the same conclusion as I without spending money on a copy, or time on the reading.

 

[Michael 345]

I think you're out to convince yourselves how clever you all are.

Can't post for the others but could be a little bit for me.

On a scale of 1 to 10 thousand how would you rate my cleverness?

I also think it's a power trip to put other people down

Nar not a power trip and the idots who post here do a perfectly good job putting themselves down.

while placing undue and unspoken confidence in the foundations of your own beliefs.

My beliefs such as they are well entitled to their due.

Unspoken confidence bit hard to judge but if I see someone jumping up and down after reading a post of mine I'll take it as positive response.

Moreover, its a kind of lazy bullying behaviour

Now here I must take issue.

It's not as hard as gardening but it's far from lazy to type up replies to even the lowest hanging fruit.

Some if they got any lower would be under the grass.

R,I.P.



PS don't forget to score me. Your input is valuable.

 

[Billy Baxter]

The wiki article was not disputed.
The fact that is there and not altered or corrected suggests we can assume the fundamentals are as written there.

I heard that people of various opinions are constantly updating wiki Mormonism articles.

Joe Smith was visited by an angel.
Really who would believe that?

Billions of people believe that Jesus is the literal Son of God, including me. "Really who would believe that?"

He found a golden bible which was given back to the angle.
I don't need more to write them off as having founded their church on lies.

Do you likewise accuse other churches?

 

[Billy Baxter]

Billy could you put this into your own words please.
Alex

ok

Read the Book of Mormon and ask God if it's true. He will tell you that it is through the Holy Ghost if you meet the conditions listed in Moroni 10:3-5

 

[James R]

No, I know the scriptures are true because the Holy Ghost told me in my heart and mind.

How did the Holy Ghost tell you? By a feeling in your heart and mind? How do you know that came from the Holy Ghost and not from you?

JS said that the Book of Mormon was the most correct book on the earth and that one could get closer to God by abiding by its precepts than by any other book.

Well, he would say that, wouldn't he? Especially if JS wrote the Book.

Lack of physical evidence sets up a test of faith to see if we will exercise our faith to find out if the Book of Mormon is true...

Hmm... So the argument goes like this:

You ought to believe what the Book says because JS says it is the "most correct book on the earth". (Most correct! Wow!)
You should take whatever JS says to be the truth, because he was visited by angels etc.
You know that JS really was visited by angels because he had the golden plates from which the BoM was derived.
You know that he had the golden plates because he said he had them, even if he gave them back.
You should take whatever JS says to be the truth, because be was visited by angels etc.
If you have any doubts about JS and his Book, that means you lack the appropriate faith that you ought to have.
You ought to have faith because JS and his Book tells you that God requires faith, not proof.
You should take whatever JS says to be the truth, because he was visitied by angels etc.

Is that about it?

 

[Michael 345]

All religions offer stories that have little, if any, solid proof

Can you give an example where there is solid proof?

Heck I would even consider liquid proof.

Vapour proof would even be welcome.

100% proof spirits more than welcome.

 

[James R]

Joe Smith was visited by an angel.
Really who would believe that?

The same kinds of people who would believe that Jesus was born of a virgin and performed miracles and was the Son of God. Or the same kinds of people who would believe that Mohammed was a Prophet led to a new understanding of submission to God's will by God himself. And so on.

Mormon beliefs are not any more crazy than the beliefs of any mainstream religion. Mormonism is historically more recent, which might make it seem somehow less mythical, and therefore less plausible, perhaps.

For a more recent example still, try Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard. Despite everything that is known about Hubbard and the Church of Scientology, people still believe in the whole Xenu stuff, and auditing and engrams and all that.

 

[James R]

Can you give an example where there is solid proof?

Well, the bible, for example, mixes some historical fact with a fair dose of myth. We can verify some elements of biblical stories archeologically.

 

[Billy Baxter]

How did the Holy Ghost tell you? By a feeling in your heart and mind? How do you know that came from the Holy Ghost and not from you?

I just know. The HG is spirit speaking to spirit in a way that leaves an indelible impression. It doesn't necessarily happen all at once.

Well, he would say that, wouldn't he? Especially if JS wrote the Book.


Hmm... So the argument goes like this:

You ought to believe what the Book says because JS says it is the "most correct book on the earth". (Most correct! Wow!)
You should take whatever JS says to be the truth, because he was visited by angels etc.
You know that JS really was visited by angels because he had the golden plates from which the BoM was derived.
You know that he had the golden plates because he said he had them, even if he gave them back.
You should take whatever JS says to be the truth, because be was visited by angels etc.
If you have any doubts about JS and his Book, that means you lack the appropriate faith that you ought to have.
You ought to have faith because JS and his Book tells you that God requires faith, not proof.
You should take whatever JS says to be the truth, because he was visitied by angels etc.

Is that about it?

Would you like some hay with that straw man?

 

[James R]

On a scale of 1 to 10 thousand how would you rate my cleverness?

Not as clever as you think you are, judging by your posts.

It's not as hard as gardening but it's far from lazy to type up replies to even the lowest hanging fruit.

I notice you didn't address the matter of bullying. Why not?

 

[James R]

I just know.

You mean, you just feel like it's true. Knowing something usually requires that a belief is justified in some way.

The HG is spirit speaking to spirit in a way that leaves an indelible impression. It doesn't necessarily happen all at once.

How can you be sure the HG is really speaking to your spirit, and this isn't just an internal feeling your own brain is generating for you?

Would you like some hay with that straw man?

My point was that, once again, it's rather convenient for religions in general to respond to the question "Can you provide some physical evidence that what you say is true?" with "Physical evidence denies faith, and God requires us to have faith. (So, no, we can't provide the physical evidence you ask for.)"

And there's the whole trust circle thing that goes on. We have to trust the Book because the Prophet says the Book came from God, and we have to trust the Prophet because the Book tells us the Prophet was the Messenger of God. And, we have to have faith in both the Book and the Prophet, or else God will be angry with us for lacking faith in His Messengers. And so on and so forth.

 

[origin]

He will tell you that it is through the Holy Ghost if you meet the conditions listed in Moroni 10:3-5

I was raised as a christian. I am even a member of a christian church (I no longer go there). But I have never been able to figure out what this holy ghost thing is. What is it?

 

[Michael 345]

Mormon beliefs are not any more crazy than the beliefs of any mainstream religion.

You sound like not being 'more crazy' is something to be proud of.

Mormonism is historically more recent, which might make it seem somehow less mythical, and therefore less plausible, perhaps.

No.

Its place in history does not effect its mythicality or its plausibleness.

For a more recent example still, try Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard. Despite everything that is known about Hubbard and the Church of Scientology, people still believe in the whole Xenu stuff, and auditing and engrams and all that.

To mis quote P T Barnum

'There's one born every minute and a religion born every hour to take advantage of them'.

 

[Michael 345]

We can verify some elements of biblical stories archeologically.

Such as?

 

[Sarkus]

And there's the whole trust circle thing that goes on. We have to trust the Book because the Prophet says the Book came from God, and we have to trust the Prophet because the Book tells us the Prophet was the Messenger of God. And, we have to have faith in both the Book and the Prophet, or else God will be angry with us for lacking faith in His Messengers. And so on and so forth.

Sort of reminds me of a Tim Minchin song ('cos you can never have too many of those circling your mind at any one time):
The Good Book

 

[Billy Baxter]

You mean, you just feel like it's true. Knowing something usually requires that a belief is justified in some way.


How can you be sure the HG is really speaking to your spirit, and this isn't just an internal feeling your own brain is generating for you?

I don't know, you just do. ::shrug::

My point was that, once again, it's rather convenient for religions in general to respond to the question "Can you provide some physical evidence that what you say is true?" with "Physical evidence denies faith, and God requires us to have faith. (So, no, we can't provide the physical evidence you ask for.)"

Yes, faith is required. "No man pleaseth God without faith."

And there's the whole trust circle thing that goes on. We have to trust the Book because the Prophet says the Book came from God, and we have to trust the Prophet because the Book tells us the Prophet was the Messenger of God. And, we have to have faith in both the Book and the Prophet, or else God will be angry with us for lacking faith in His Messengers. And so on and so forth.

straw man again

 

[Billy Baxter]

I was raised as a christian. I am even a member of a christian church (I no longer go there). But I have never been able to figure out what this holy ghost thing is. What is it?

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/holy-ghost?lang=eng&letter=h

 

[Michael 345]

Not as clever as you think you are, judging by your posts.

How clever do you think I think I am?

I notice you didn't address the matter of bullying. Why not?

I did say it wasn't lazy.

Would not put it in the bullying column.

More in the 'show me the money' rant.

But if you haven't the testicles to back up the claims don't make the claims.

 

[Billy Baxter]

I feel strongly impressed to say that TOBS (the Theory of Body Signals) as discussed in this and other threads IS NOT MORMON DOCTRINE but my own unproven speculations. IT IS DANGEROUS TO TRY TO INTERPRET GOD SOLELY THROUGH WATCHING YOUR BODY SIGNALS!

Stick to sound doctrine.