Haven't you ever read a history book?
Well that's indeed a well thought out and mature start to a debate. I thank you for it. To answer your question - yes, I have read many history books but given that my statements, and indeed the statements I responded to originally, had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with history, I must say I fail to see the value of the question.
Still, let's look at the rest of your post and see what we can come up with..
A huge mixture of cultures and ideas is not the norm
I disagree.
The vastness of differing beliefs in the UK is a great example - some 33% religiosity comprising of jews, christians, (admittedly the major religion - but also of countless differing denominations), muslims, atheists, hinduism, sikhism, buddhism and hell, even jedi.
Look at the majority of first world nations and you'll find it's pretty similar. Ok, if we travel to the poorer, less educated nations then fine - children that are not indocrtinated young might find they "have no friends", or perhaps even get killed - and I know the same has been true for the majority of "history", but I haven't been talking about some poor, deeply religious nation or some time back when dinosaurs roamed.
In the 33% religious UK it is simply wrong to force feed a specific religious belief to children barely old enough to walk. In any country it is also wrong - but I do understand that some countries are stuck in that position.
History, no friends and whatever else you can think of do not in any way change that statement.
Now, I asked and I still await justification how
not force feeding a child a specific religious belief means the child will have no friends, have mental problems and be an outcast. You seem quite hot on what he said so why don't you answer?
Now, you might rebutt with "but the UK is not the 'norm'", but you would be wrong. If you like we can go through the figures, but you will find that a country having a huge mix of cultures and ideas
is the norm, (for first world countries).
Irregardless to all of this, I still consider it wrong for a child, (or anyone else for that matter), to be force fed a specific belief. Tell me young Jaster, do you disagree with that statement? Do you, master of history books, consider it right to force feed a specific deity belief to a child, (or anyone else)?
To go back a bit because you might not have read it:
"If a bunch of fishermen gather to talk about fishing, is that wrong?"
That was the question, (among others of similar nature). My answer was that there's nothing wrong with fisherman gathering to talk about fishing
as long as they do not
force everyone else to fish.
I then got told, (to stick to analogy), that if fishermen
don't force kids to fish then those kids will have no friends and end up suicidal. This, to the poster, seemed perfectly justifiable reason, (although the reason has little value in this part of the world), to consider it warranted, and indeed even essential, for parents to force feed specific deity belief to their children.
If you agree with that just say so, but please do not think for one second that asking me whether I've read a book or not is an argument to anything. Of course we could just say "fuck it" and question each others level of education if you'd really like?
"I bet you've never done a chemistry o level"
"yeah well my encyclopedia's bigger than yours"
Could be an interesting argument, no really.
(now you should be detecting sarcasm).
This idea that you have that a huge, secular, multicultural society is an example of a normal human community shows your utter lack of a broader historical perspective.
So much for that idea, seems you can't help yourself. When in doubt in a debate question the other persons education and it somehow magically seems to add weight to what would technically be a quite flimsy argument. Now we can happily debate Genghis Khan, Jefferson, Gandhi or anyone else for as long as you like, but if you're supporting the argument that, (here and now in the UK), a child needs to be force indoctrinated or he wont have any friends then you might as well pull up a seat because you're going to be here a long time. My understanding, or lack thereof, of broader historical perspectives are completely and utterly irrelevant to my statement and what was returned to me. Understand?
Once again, you're talking about a huge, multicultural society filled with people's of different faiths and customs. One again, you have to realize that this is not the normal way for human communities to exist.
I take it you have never been to Europe. For one second try and imagine what the UK is like. I can see it's clearly a hardship for you, but let me just tell you - even though it will sound almost impossible, almost supernatural and fantastical, but we are a multi cultural nation. There are so many differing faiths and cultures here that every day is a new experience. In my very own street I have christians, atheists, jews, buddhists, and muslims - all in one road. Can you even begin to imagine such a thing? It's not normal I tell you, no siree. Why, if it wasn't 2006 I'd pull out that big wooden cross and crucify the fuckers.
But hey, at least you're waking up to what I've been saying. Yes, you're right..
"Once again, you're talking about a huge, multicultural society filled with people's of different faiths and customs"
Yes, I am. Congratulations. Blue Peter badge is in the post.
Actually, his statements weren't typical at all. You don't seem to be trying to understand what he's saying in his analysis, which is quite well thought out and very articulate. I don't even think you've been reading it.
Indeed it was his
lack of statement that was typical. I called him on a claim he made, (kids must be indoctrinated or they have no friends). I'm calling you on the very same thing.
Just for your benefit here are the questions again:
"Kindly show me how not being forced to believe in a specific being results in belief that "you have no place in the world"?"
"How does not forcing your child into belief of a specific deity before he's old enough to even understand the word deity mean he's not being allowed to function in society or that he's being alienated?"
"Now you need to show me how not forcing belief in a god down your childs throat ends up with that child having no friends. Please, I await with bated breath."
No, I'm not talking 2000 years ago or some country that is not multicultural.
So, adding me to ignore or what? They're really rude questions, aren't they?
he's telling you that children who grow up without any kind of cultural knowledge end up having no friends, which includes religion, since it's such a huge part of most people's lives.
Ok, right.. Perhaps I should just point out that education and force feeding specific belief are two entirely different things.
Of course, even if we ignore all of that, your friend is still wrong. Let it be stated that your friend, (and the conversation), was not about
"any kind" of cultural knowledge, but of force feeding specific religious belief. My wifes sister doesn't know anything of religion, in fact she doesn't know anything of anything. The girl's a bit.. 'slow'. The only thing she actually knows is Arsenal football team and yes - she has friends regardless to her lack of belief in a specific deity or knowledge/belief in a specific religion.
My statement - that I for some reason need to keep repeating, was that it is wrong for a parent/educational system to force feed belief in a specific deity/ in a god, or sheesh, even in a specific football team. Imagine the uproar if every school in London had it as part of their curriculum to force feed worship for Chelsea football club to any child under 3 that crossed their path. While I understand parents/educational systems will do it, I disagree with their right to do so. Ancient history be damned. My argument is that a child should be taught - but left alone to decide what is or isn't right, (to them).
My sister's daughter is a religious whack job, and she's barely 5 years old. It's not because she ever decided, or had a choice, what she would believe - but that it was forced upon her by bad parents. She is now what she is not because she gave it even 3 seconds thought - but because someone told her what she would be, end of story. I'm quite certain she would have friends one way or the other.
If you've ever read anything about human society throughout history, you'd know that the description I gave is a fairly accurate depiction of life throughout most of the world throughout most time periods.
There we go once again with your rather amusing superiority nonsense. Still, my lack of reading books without pop up pictures aside, you really need to visit the UK. Btw, that's UK 2006 just incase you were unsure.
We're not talking about the right or wrong of social indoctrination
We're not? I was, clearly you didn't pick up on that but don't include me in your statement. Thanks.
we're only saying that, not only is it normal, but necessary for the individual, in most communities, to survive.
Fine, show me how a child
not force indoctrinated into belief of a specific deity will not survive.
Hello?
Baumgarten has elegantly described the consequences of a lack of social indoctrination
Such a shame though, given all that eloquence and elegant decription that the minute I questioned him on it he ran for the hills. Your turn, oh master of books.
Are you disputing this claim as a scientist, or are you (more likely) reacting emotionally to what you see as an endorsement of religious induction which you (as an obviously secular humanistic atheist) find repulsive
I'm sorry, if you want to use the word 'science', kindly back up the statements that
not being forced into a specific belief makes you have no friends and have mental problems.
Being a human, emotions are a given. Your sophisticated (more likely) comment was not needed. Did you perhaps think I was a Borg? However, if you can show how, (in the UK 2006), forced child indoctrination is essential for a child to have friends or, as you claimed, "survive", then please do. No, let's forget 1000 years ago and history books for now. Thank you very much but they're not needed here.
Oh and please, can you stop asking me if I've ever read any books. It's really quite pathetic.
