Best Intentions - Dynamics of Spiritual Abuse
- Thread starter lightgigantic
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Yeah. I think we're all guilty to some degree of being black pots. No one wants to admit his irrational side nowadays, but anyone is all too eager to point out everyone else's. That's dangerous, unfortunately, as not only is it a rather skewed view of reality, but it encourages communities to draw lines between each other, each with its own particular claim to superiority. This is the type of schism that starts wars, and we have schisms aplenty in the world currently.(Q) said:
This kind of abuse is also abuse of the self. Illogical fantasies are a fact of life. We're people; we have them. Sometimes we try to deny them, act like since we are scientists and philosophers we no longer have a need for such primitive modes of thought. So we repress our irrationalities, ignore them. Ignoring them doesn't make them go away, though; and in a sense, we lose some control over ourselves by surrendering these irrationalities to more automatic areas of the mind. You can become a fanatic without knowing it, in fact believing the opposite. We are blinded from our fanaticism by our fanaticism. Every suicide bomber who wasted his life and the lives of his victims in a senseless moment of violence believed himself to be truly justified in his actions. None could see the absurdity of what they were doing.
It's a shame. Good religious belief is supposed to be in spite of lack of supporting evidence, not in denial of it. Those of us who do not call ourselves religious can benefit from this lesson as well. When we fail the test of intellectual humility, we do worse than make fools of ourselves. We make headlines. Eventually our antics will be caught on tape, made into a documentary, and shown in theaters worldwide, exposing our dramatic folly to a disapproving world.
Good article LG.
That's not entirely accurate there my friend. Being that only a very small percentage of any given population is atheistic, secular or humanistic. In jail most people there are religious!
Don't forget your pedophile preasts either!
From the article:
There LightG! that should answer your queries, any structure where there's an authorative leadership is subseptible to spiritual abuse. An attack on one's ego, for example can be considered a spiritual abuse, wether that person's beliefs may be secular or theistic does not really matter. Abuse takes place in many sircumstances in life, it all depends on how one deals with such behavior. The weaker minded individuals are more subseptible to just "take it" and then suffer the consequences of their choices. The "alpha male" for example would defend themselves on these kinds of abuse. A stronger minded, and confident person is less likely to be abused in this manner.
Godless
That's not entirely accurate there my friend. Being that only a very small percentage of any given population is atheistic, secular or humanistic. In jail most people there are religious!
Don't forget your pedophile preasts either! From the article:
There LightG! that should answer your queries, any structure where there's an authorative leadership is subseptible to spiritual abuse. An attack on one's ego, for example can be considered a spiritual abuse, wether that person's beliefs may be secular or theistic does not really matter. Abuse takes place in many sircumstances in life, it all depends on how one deals with such behavior. The weaker minded individuals are more subseptible to just "take it" and then suffer the consequences of their choices. The "alpha male" for example would defend themselves on these kinds of abuse. A stronger minded, and confident person is less likely to be abused in this manner.
Godless
Godless
Actually the article is about inappropriate authority - it is not saying that authority is inappropriate - you can argue if you want that authority is not intrinsic to society but I doubt if anyone here is prepared to live outside of society, no matter how much of an alpha male they might think they are
Actually the article is about inappropriate authority - it is not saying that authority is inappropriate - you can argue if you want that authority is not intrinsic to society but I doubt if anyone here is prepared to live outside of society, no matter how much of an alpha male they might think they are
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geeser said:
Are you saying atheists don't congregate? At the very least they seem to congregate on religious threads
philosopher´s stone
and if you read the context of the quote you could determine that the article is talking about something more subtle than that
They do tend to deify persons like dawkins, and statements of such persons are lapped up by a congregation, and there are numerous quotes on threads like this that are maliciously directed at persons who dare to not be atheist (and this is a religious thread), and there are interpretations of science or other bodies of evidence to suit atheist ends, etc etc -
and if you read the context of the quote you could determine that the article is talking about something more subtle than that
They do tend to deify persons like dawkins, and statements of such persons are lapped up by a congregation, and there are numerous quotes on threads like this that are maliciously directed at persons who dare to not be atheist (and this is a religious thread), and there are interpretations of science or other bodies of evidence to suit atheist ends, etc etc -
(Q)
If they are deluded yes - of course being an atheist you give yourself the liberal status of not being deluded when you make such statements about how god = delusion
therefore you see that serious religious advocates don't share such viewsIf it was just people sitting around chatting about their fantasies, I'd have no problem with that, they can fill their boots.
Of course, if you were the mayor of my town and believed in little green men from Mars, I might not vote for you next term.
The old war argument huh - are you also equally worried about economic development tooKennyJC said:
actually this article talks about the phenomena of abuse that is a bit more subtle than thatBetelnut said:
baumgarten said:
Unfortunately I don't think the people here will be able to appreciate what you have written - I can gather already that the moment they saw the title they thought they already worked it out without bothering to read the thread
How desapointing indeed, and you were doing so good! You obviously didn't understand a thing I wrote!
I understood the artigle LG, don't act as if you are the only one who understand anything, obviously you don't! Authority is abused by jackass' who think they can manipulate other people, it just so happens, that those people easily manipulated by these assholes, are weak minded, easier to manipulate, alpha males exist wether they be theists or atheists, what the hell do you think that preacher abusing his authority is? He/she is the alpha ego, who knows he can abuse his/her authority!
It's not wrong as long as the fishermen don't try and force you to become a fisherman while telling you any other hobby you might have is wrong. It's not wrong as long as the farmers don't try and force you to become a farmer while telling you any other profession is wrong. It's not wrong as long as the junkies don't try and force you to become a junkie while telling you being clean is wrong.
See above. It is not about people wanting to believe something as being wrong - hell, you can believe in anything you want and it's fine. It's when it is forced upon everyone, especially young innocent children - which is done daily the world over. An interesting observation but what is one of the very first things a new parent does? Yep, they go and register the birth of their child. What astounds me is how the question: "what religion are they" can be asked during registration of birth. How would the parents know what religion or lack thereof their child is going to be before it's even old enough to drool?
How many parents here think they have the right to decide what beliefs their child will or will not have before it's barely a week old?
Look at your own birth certificate. Were your parents also rude and ignorant enough to think they had the right to decide what you would believe?
That's where it's wrong.
SnakeLord said:
How does anyone force anyone to do such things? I don't understand? Are you saying or implying that the churches forced people to become members, then force them to value the church ideals? If so, how? And just what church(es) does that in the free world??
SnakeLord said:
The church doesn't do that! I've never heard of a church that forced it's members to join, then forced them to remain members .....do you? If so, which ones?
And as to the parents, don't they "force" their children to do lots of things? Or would you have the children collected at birht and raised in accordance with YOUR beliefs and values? Please explain your basic position in this matter.
Would you have the children locked away in isolation until they were old enough to make up their own minds about what they wanted?
I don't get your hostility towards the churches, but even moreso, I don't get your ideals on the matter of child-rearing. Please explain.
Baron Max
Imagine you are born to a tribesman and a tribeswoman of the Alan tribe. Everybody in the Alan tribe lives together, works together, and worships the tribal god, Alan. There are neighboring tribes living close by: Betty, Charlie, and Daniel. All the Betties, Charlies, and Daniels work and live in their respective tribes. The Betties worship Betty, the Charlies worship Charlie, and the Daniels worship Daniel. They all have distinctly different traditions and customs.SnakeLord said:
Your parents consider themselves to be pretty forward-thinking, so they never teach you about the tribal god or what it means to be an Alan. They recognize the existence of these neighboring tribes and believe that it would be unfair to indoctrinate you into the Alan way of life when you otherwise might prefer to be a Betty, Charlie, or Daniel. So they do not teach you the ritual Alan food blessing or the significance of the Alan holidays. When you are old enough to make decisions for yourself, you can learn.
At the yearly Feast of Alan, you sit down at the long communal table and puzzle at the odd behavior of those around you, speaking strange words to themselves and making irregular hand motions. Some of those sitting near you look at you funny for not joining in. You sense disapproval. You are right; after dinner, a group of kids makes fun of you for not praying. They call you a devil. They look down on you and pick on you. You ask your parents why the other children are so mean to you; they tell you that their beliefs cause them to be intolerant of different people.
Different people. Like you. You don't really belong with the Alans. You don't understand them, they don't understand you, and neither of you like the other. Your parents were successful; you are not an Alan, or a Betty, or a Charlie, or a Daniel. You are a child without a country. And it makes you feel very alone in the world. That all-important sense of belonging felt by your peers is absent in you. You feel unwanted by the world. You respond by rejecting it in kind. You don't trust anyone. Your life is miserable.
So, were your parents right?
Really? I wasn't aware.KennyJC said:
It has a lot of relevance. The only thing that has changed about our tribes is locality. We still classify ourselves into groups and identify ourselves with them: Christian, Muslim, Jewish; American, Egyptian, Chinese; Democrat, Republican, Libertarian; religious, secular. These categories tell us about ourselves and our kin. In our multicultural society we seek out others like us and form communities. No man is an island.
Children still need that sense of belonging. They still need to be taught a way of life. I obviously know my own way of life best, and I know it is a good way. Naturally I would be more inclined to teach them my way instead of someone else's. It's my job as a parent to help my kid become a good person, and this means instilling some core values and beliefs. This is not rude or ignorant, it is being a good parent. It's how culture works. If my kid grows up in white suburban America and I don't expose him to baseball and hot dogs, what kind of a dad am I?
Children still need that sense of belonging. They still need to be taught a way of life. I obviously know my own way of life best, and I know it is a good way. Naturally I would be more inclined to teach them my way instead of someone else's. It's my job as a parent to help my kid become a good person, and this means instilling some core values and beliefs. This is not rude or ignorant, it is being a good parent. It's how culture works. If my kid grows up in white suburban America and I don't expose him to baseball and hot dogs, what kind of a dad am I?
All of which can be achieved without force feeding them superstitious bullshit that they are too young to reject.
Oh and Baron_Max: The church does in fact force people into their institution. They surely can not expect babies, infants and children to have any free will in taking part in confirmation, baptism, confessing sins and other such stupidities.
Sort of funny considering half the citizens in my country grow up to be non-religious or atheists, yet in childhood, they are forced to take part in it. Violating the naivety of children to further their cult... It's pathetic, and the only thing that comes of it is fighting between opposite sides of the city who are divided between catholicism and protestantism.
Should we instead suppress the irrational nature of the human psyche? We have seen what kind of fanaticism that causes.KennyJC said:
The truth is, you can only pretend to be governed purely by reason. It's actually bullshit. You're an animal. You're an irrational, emotional, instinctual, intuitive creature. You can ignore this part of you, but you will simply lose consciousness of it, and it will continue to influence your behavior without your being aware of it. The belief that you aren't superstitious or unreasonable is as much a fantasy as some delusion of a god. Really, the only thing that makes your bullshit favorable to other religious bullshit is that it's yours. As long as you don't make an effort to understand the latter, though, you can't be expected to tolerate it. Your opinion of other cultures is actually a prime example of this so-called spiritual abuse.
Not to pick on you, though, the churches around you do the same thing by your accounts. It must be a frustrating situation, where everyone is picking a team and arbitrarily competing with the others. Welcome to the world.
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