best arguments against religion (no theists)

[MrAnderson]

Ahhhh(sigh)... the brain

I have read a lot of great things here.

A good direction that I rarely hear people venture toward in an argument against the existence of god or the validity of religion, is the fundamental neurological function of belief.

Why are people so prone to believe such irrational things? Why is the testimony of a religious person so emotionally and deeply ingrained in them?

True it is difficult to argue with a religious person due to the emotional thinking (hence irrational). It really does not make sense why they cling so emotionally to fairy tale like accounts of bronze age stories (even older since they were taken from Sumerians, Egyptians, etc.).

The brain is the topic that holds the key to debunking religion. UC San Diego did an experiment that revealed the limbic system as the culprit for religious experiences. It performs a sort of emotional hijacking of the brain similar to rage, fight/flight, extreme elation, etc.

Even though we do not need religion to make sense of the world that science has sufficiently illuminated, humanity still cannot give it up. We are exactly like a heroin addict. (Addiction stems from limbic phenomena).

I am an atheist, yet I still find myself "wanting" to believe stories about existence that make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside (religion). It is the exact same feeling I get when I crave a cigarette (haven't smoked in 4 years).

 

[swarm]

its false?

False as the day is long.

For some reason you think I care to compound your idiocy. No thanks. All that is required is to observe that you are wrong. I've no further interest beyond that. After all, it isn't my question.

 

[fedr808]

CMB radiation. It is the evidence of the big bang happening. It is basically that in the first 300,000 years there was super heated plasma in the universe, so hot electrons werent even bonded to protons yet. But photons were constantly getting scattered by the electrons creating CMB, but when the universe expanded enough that the plasma cooled and the electrons bonded with protons the CMB was free to roam the universe, and no matter wher eyou look in the nightsky there is always a thin layer of CMB radiation.

 

[Foopmaster]

God is not great.

This is a pretty old thread with lots of good contributions. I'll add my two cents.

The arguments over "The Existence for/against God" are largely irrelevant. A more fruitful argument would be to answer the question "If (hypothetically) God DID INDEED EXIST, would he be worthy of worship?". If we take the bible as evidence, the answer is a resounding NO. The God of the bible commits and condones nearly all of man's worst character traits/behaviors including (but not limited to): Jealousy, infanticide, genocide, slavery, misogyny, vengeance, and BLOOD SACRIFICE. Anyone who says God is merciful and kind has 1) never read the bible 2) has read it but ignores the parts where God is shown in a less-than-favorable light or 3) read and acknowledged these verses, but attempts to perform semantic acrobatics to show these passages to be somehow "metaphorical".

I always encourage people to read the bible, because that is the best way for them to see how detestable the Christian God is. Search up "The Skeptics Annotated Bible" for some clear-cut examples FROM THE BIBLE of how God is NOT worthy of worship.

 

[Norsefire]

The best arguments are the ones that state the obvious, that there's no evidence.

However many of the arguments stated in the OP aren't really arguments at all; for instance you argue "if god exists and is good than why is there evil"

Who says god is good? Maybe he's mixed or maybe he allows evil to occur for a specific reason

That isn't really the best argument

 

[phlogistician]

Cato, you want an argument against religion? Just show people posts made by 'Lori 7'. It will show them that religion requires the abandonment of logic and reason, and therefore self esteem.

 

[phlogistician]

Plus, some Theists do believe that destiny plays a part in some aspects of our lives

Destiny is contrary to free will, isn't it?

 

[VnerLoveJoyUrminita]

How can evil exist with a good and omnipotent God?





We also have the theodice problem, stated by David Hume: If the evil in the world is intended by God, he is not good. If it violates his intentions, he is not almighty. God can't be both almighty and good. There are many objections to this, but none that holds since God is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. Besides, if only God can create he must have created evil. If somebody else (the devil) created evil, how can one know that God, and not Satan created the universe?

Most atheists define evil according to their own interpretation. By defining evil as things they don't like, they have created a circular argument guaranteed to "prove the non-existence" of God. The Christian definition of evil is anything done by one of God's spirit beings (humans or angels) against Him (or His created beings). As such, God is never responsible for evil - only His created spirit beings.

Atheists say that since only God can create, therefore He must have created evil. However, at this point the atheist has redefined the meaning of create. Evil was not created. Evil is manifested (committed) by free-will beings. Nice play on words, but it doesn't stand up to examination.

 

[Cris]

Vner,

Welcome.

The Christian definition of evil is anything done by one of God's spirit beings (humans or angels) against Him (or His created beings). As such, God is never responsible for evil - only His created spirit beings.

Which were designed by him with the ability to do evil. If he had truly not wanted evil to occur he could have designed them without the ability, or provided them adequate knowledge and intelligence that they could deduce that evil has no ultimate value. Either way the decision to allow evil is entirely his and he must be held responsible for allowing it to exist.

Atheists say that since only God can create, therefore He must have created evil. However, at this point the atheist has redefined the meaning of create. Evil was not created. Evil is manifested (committed) by free-will beings. Nice play on words, but it doesn't stand up to examination.

Created/designed, whatever. The whole of creation is entirely his choice and with omnipotence it could have been different. The existence of evil and the tendency for some individuals to commit evil are all simply components of his master plan. Had he not wanted evil to exist it would have been so. It exists because he wanted it so.

The free-will argument is the weak part of the Christian argument here. Given adequate knowledge and ability to reason, anyone can determine that evil has limited long term benefits. Free-will alone is inadequate without the right tools and knowledge to use it wisely. In this case the Christian God deliberately designed a no-win scenario and must have known people had no choice but to fail. Again, all intended and designed by a claimed omni-bevelolent god that seems impotent to warrant this title.

 

[pywakit]

God doesn't comply with what I want god to be, therefore, I do not find it agreeable that this god should exist, therefore, god does not exist.

Cogito, ergo mundus talis est.
Cogito, ergo deus talis est.

Let's restate this logically :

(this irrational, non-evidentiary conceptual construct of Man ... or more simply put ... fantasy) doesn't comply with what I want (this irrational, non-evidentiary conceptual construct of Man ... or more simply put ... fantasy) to be, therefore, I do not find it agreeable that (this irrational, non-evidentiary conceptual construct of Man ... or more simply put ... fantasy) should exist, therefore, (this irrational, non-evidentiary conceptual construct of Man ... or more simply put ... fantasy) does not exist.

Yes. I see your point. Clearly that person did not get it. This irrational, non-evidentiary conceptual construct of Man ... or more simply put ... fantasy does exist.

I wonder how many more thousands of years must elapse before humanity finally elevates itself from the 'dark ages' of superstitious ignorance.

Tom Hanks asks Jesus' descendant (at the end of The DaVinci Code) if she would "destroy faith, or renew it".

The message was clear, assisted by the little 'miracles' performed, that to destroy faith would be detrimental to Man.

I guess the logic is inescapable. Clearly we should go back to the 'geocentric universe' as the new revelation that we lived in a 'heliocentric universe' was most certainly detrimental to Man.

Faith fosters ... Ignorance. Irrationality. Indoctrination. Conditioning. Arrogance. Superiority. Supression. Exclusion. Anger. Hatred. Fear. Torture. Death. Destruction.

Faith motivates the nice missionaries to spread this doctrine the world over, attempting to coerce non-believers, through threats of eternal pain and suffering, into believing their 'message of love, and hope'.

Sounds pretty bad.

But hey! As long as the 'chosen ones' gain immortality, giving them the opportunity to worship their psychopathic, hate-filled god for eternity, it's all good. Right?

By the way, what was God's great sacrifice again? What did He do to show His love for us? His selfless Gift to Humanity?

Oh yes. I remember.

He gave up His 'only begotten Son'. Wow! That's pretty selfless. It must be AWFUL for God to have to live without His Son. The sheer agony He must feel, never to look into His eyes. Never to feel the closeness. Never to hear His voice, or feel His loving embrace.

So sad. You have to feel pretty bad for God.

I can speak from experience on this, because my only begotten son drowned when he was seven. In fact, he was my only child. And I have lived with this agony for 20 plus years. Day after day, I wake up, and my first thought is to grieve over my son's pain, and loneliness as he suffered an excrutiating death in the cold ( 39 degrees ) waters of Lake Washington. This is not something that goes away with time, as there is no way to ever erase this knowledge from my brain, so I'm sure that God feels just as bad now as He did 2000 years ago.

Yes, my heart cries out in empathy for God's Sacrifice, and Loss.

But wait! I just remembered something!

Where is Jesus right now? Isn't he with God? Hasn't He always been with God?

Yes! I think they are together!

Too cool!

Well, I am happy for both of them. I wouldn't wish my pain on my worst enemy.

Of course, on the otherhand ... it appears maybe it wasn't such a big Sacrifice after all ....

 

[pywakit]

We also have the theodice problem, stated by David Hume: If the evil in the world is intended by God, he is not good. If it violates his intentions, he is not almighty. God can't be both almighty and good. There are many objections to this, but none that holds since God is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. Besides, if only God can create he must have created evil. If somebody else (the devil) created evil, how can one know that God, and not Satan created the universe?

Most atheists define evil according to their own interpretation. By defining evil as things they don't like, they have created a circular argument guaranteed to "prove the non-existence" of God. The Christian definition of evil is anything done by one of God's spirit beings (humans or angels) against Him (or His created beings). As such, God is never responsible for evil - only His created spirit beings.

Atheists say that since only God can create, therefore He must have created evil. However, at this point the atheist has redefined the meaning of create. Evil was not created. Evil is manifested (committed) by free-will beings. Nice play on words, but it doesn't stand up to examination.

How entertaining!

And how does your assumption of God's existence "stand up to examination"?

And by the way, it's totally cool that God can do things that any rational human being (made in God's own image) would consider sick, horrific, heartless, cruel, and/or pathological.

I guess destroying entire cities at a whim is A-OK with you, right? God can do no evil.

If you want to spend your entire existence on Earth worshipping a monster, go right ahead. If you want to think it would be great to worship this monster for EVER, that's ok, too.

Of course, you haven't really thought that one through, have you? You have no clue how long eternity really is.

What pathetic entity would require His creations to WORSHIP Him? FOREVER! A little insecurity going on here?

Just wondering ....

 

[Try Again]

hello everyone, I have heard a lot of good arguments against religion here, and even have a few of my own, but I would like to have a list of them I can reference.

so, I would like people to post their best logical arguments against religion/god here.

theists need not post here, this is not the place for debate, this is for the gathering of ideas from atheists only.

the ones that pop into my mind are:

--how can got grant prayers without infringing on free will? if you pray for a certain outcome, then people would not have the free will to do otherwise.

--how can evil exist with a good and omnipotent god?

--god cannot be totally omniscient without our futures being predetermined.

--an omniscient and good god has only one choice in any situation, which is to do the most good. therefore god has no free will.

--if god kept you out of heaven for following the wrong religion then god would be immoral for not showing you the right way, and since there are so many religion, either god does not care if you worship, or god is immoral.

--if jesus was the son of the same god as the old testament, then why are parts of the old testament considered wrong, while we follow the new testament. (referring to the death penalty for those who work on the sabbath, dishonor their parents, ect)

thats all I have for now. and once again, only atheist/agnostics should respond in order to keep arguments from breaking out here.

Theism is too broad of an idea, be more specific.

 

[Etheo977]

Throw Religion out the window!

THis messege is for people who follow a certain religion...

IF you are a believer in God then you have learned that God created man (humans) in His own image. Right?

He did not create Asians in his image.
He did not create Isrealis in his image.
He did not create Pakistanis in his image
And He did not create White man in his image! .... etc..

HE CREATE ALL HUMANS IN HIS IMAGE!

So arent we supposed to be worshiping the SAME GOD!?!? Why are there so many religions in the world? WHy do some religions require you do something or NOT do something that another religion might not!?!?!
What makes one religion right or wrong?

Maybe You should THROW your religion out the window Just stop practicing it and TEACHING it to your kids!!! The reason religion is so hard to get rid of is because we keep teaching it to the next generation!

Cant you imagine a world with out religion?!?! ONe where ALL people in the world believed in the same thing.. EACHOTHER!!!! What a beautiful world that would be!

I am not saying that there is nothing Greater that us! I mean, shoot! The Universe is a pretty big place! But Im not going read what That is from a book that was written 1000+ years ago and then go ahead and teach it to my kids as reality! Todays Religion is Tomorrows Mythology!

 

[lightgigantic]

THis messege is for people who follow a certain religion...

IF you are a believer in God then you have learned that God created man (humans) in His own image. Right?

sure

He did not create Asians in his image.
He did not create Isrealis in his image.
He did not create Pakistanis in his image
And He did not create White man in his image! .... etc..

not sure why you think this

HE CREATE ALL HUMANS IN HIS IMAGE!

yes

So arent we supposed to be worshiping the SAME GOD!?!? Why are there so many religions in the world?

because people have different desires and conditioning, so god reciprocates with that

WHy do some religions require you do something or NOT do something that another religion might not!?!?!

kind of like why one doctor might want to do surgery and another give medication - IOW they are not required to have identical procedures in order to have valid practices

What makes one religion right or wrong?

to the degree that it culminates in love of god

Maybe You should THROW your religion out the window Just stop practicing it and TEACHING it to your kids!!! The reason religion is so hard to get rid of is because we keep teaching it to the next generation!

um - ok

Cant you imagine a world with out religion?!?! ONe where ALL people in the world believed in the same thing.. EACHOTHER!!!! What a beautiful world that would be!

that still leaves you with the humongous problem of a world with problems of difference

 

[nemeleu]

religion makes ppl stupid

There is absolutely NO PROOF that a god exists,man wasn't made in the image of god,but god was made in the image of people in asia are diferent gods,in africa difrent god, europe difrent gods , america difrent gods.Religion is a way to control people, religious people are made to bealive every thing that they're religion tells them, religion makes bilions of dolars every year and they don't pay taxes,RELIGION= A WAY TO MAKE MONEY AND CONTROL PEOPLE ,A WAY OF SLAVERY

 

[Parmenides]

The argument from evil in my view remains the most powerful anti-theistic argument. How could God stand by and let the Holocaust happen? Or the Rwandan genocide?

The other argument I think comes from atheists motivated by science. A moderator of this forum has written an interesting and insightful argument about how science can lead to an 'enchanted' view of the universe without requiring belief in the divine: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/atheists-are-good-humans-too-20091027-hibc.html.

 

[lightgigantic]

The argument from evil in my view remains the most powerful anti-theistic argument. How could God stand by and let the Holocaust happen? Or the Rwandan genocide?

By relegating the desire to express free will in an off the wall manner to a temporary world with temporary egos

 

[kx000]

--how can got grant prayers without infringing on free will? if you pray for a certain outcome, then people would not have the free will to do otherwise.

If you do not pray for God's will he has no reason to oblige.

--how can evil exist with a good and omnipotent god?

Lucifer was created as a Archangel, not a demon.

--god cannot be totally omniscient without our futures being predetermined.

You do realize it all ends with tribulation, right? What is good for you, may not be good for the rest of us. Sorry, there are winners. And there are losers. Period.

--an omniscient and good god has only one choice in any situation, which is to do the most good. therefore god has no free will.

God can end it all. There is nothing baring God from doing evil except he by nature is good, and loving.

--if god kept you out of heaven for following the wrong religion then god would be immoral for not showing you the right way, and since there are so many religion, either god does not care if you worship, or god is immoral.

God cares not about religion. Do unto others, and have faith.

--if jesus was the son of the same god as the old testament, then why are parts of the old testament considered wrong, while we follow the new testament. (referring to the death penalty for those who work on the sabbath, dishonor their parents, ect)

Sin is the working of Satan. Tugging on your dick won't keep you out of Heaven.

 

[kx000]

The argument from evil in my view remains the most powerful anti-theistic argument. How could God stand by and let the Holocaust happen? Or the Rwandan genocide?

If there is a God, then death is no punishment. God can intervene only on a small scale. If you are here for a reason he would have guided you from the chambers. This is a covert operation.

 

[kx000]

There is absolutely NO PROOF that a god exists,man wasn't made in the image of god,but god was made in the image of people in asia are diferent gods,in africa difrent god, europe difrent gods , america difrent gods.Religion is a way to control people, religious people are made to bealive every thing that they're religion tells them, religion makes bilions of dolars every year and they don't pay taxes,RELIGION= A WAY TO MAKE MONEY AND CONTROL PEOPLE ,A WAY OF SLAVERY

Yes, religion is a way to control people. Fortunately, God has no desire to control people. Now, put one and one together.