best arguments against religion (no theists)

[Sarkus]

a key difference is that with the tape measure you have to radically redefine the discipline that microkelvins appear in order to hope to become valid

No you don't at all... it's a measure of temperature. No redefinition at all.
Perhaps your critique would be valid if you had a clue about the process. :shrug:

For instance its not really valid to dismiss anthropology as a whole on the basis of the basis of ideas of race that was prevalent in the early 20th century

Relevancy??

Instead you just talk in general terms, as if citing issues of brainwashing could hope to become anything more than anecdotal.

Take it for what it is, LG. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

 

[Robittybob1]

Worst thing about religion we have been asked to go and preach the gospel even to the frigg'n atheists!

 

[Arioch]

@Rob --

Being an atheist is like being the only sober one in a car full of drunks, and no one will let you drive.

 

[lightgigantic]

@lightgigantic --

The explanation is a bit bare bones, but it's in there and it's been covered so often that you can't have missed it without deliberately avoiding it.

No you don't
You just say they are different, much like I could say "You are wrong Arioch"
:shrug:

 

[lightgigantic]

No you don't at all... it's a measure of temperature. No redefinition at all.

Sure
Its only when you start talking (solely) about the language of belief that you radically depart from the discipline that microkelvins etc appears in

Perhaps your critique would be valid if you had a clue about the process.

I am quite aware of the process that microkelvins appear in

Relevancy??

Strange takes on an idea are just that - strange takes on an idea

Take it for what it is, LG. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

I know .. and at the moment it is looking completely anecdotal

 

[lightgigantic]

Worst thing about religion we have been asked to go and preach the gospel even to the frigg'n atheists!

yeah, kind of like working in a mental institution where all the patients are completely convinced there is nothing wrong with them

 

[Robittybob1]

yeah, kind of like working in a mental institution where all the patients are completely convinced there is nothing wrong with them

You should get another job! Or change places with them, and relax.:m:

 

[wynn]

Now compare to if one is a rudimentary practitioner and, due to falling short or misunderstanding key aspects of practical application, reaps results that are contrary to their theoretical outlook of how things should be

This is a truism, of course.

The practical fact is that if one practices a religion that cannot deliver the results it promises - then one won't obtain the promised results, no matter how hard one practices.

This is the fault of that religion, not of the practitioner.

You can try all you want, but finger painting is not going to make you enlightened.

The wrong path is the wrong path.
It's just that a person does not and cannot know in advance which path is the right one.

 

[wynn]

Worst thing about religion we have been asked to go and preach the gospel even to the frigg'n atheists!

Well poor you!
If you don't like something about your religion: then maybe it is not the right religion, or you're not the right person for it.

 

[lightgigantic]

This is a truism, of course.

Only if one accepts from the onset that there is nothing to be gaiend by spiritual practice

The practical fact is that if one practices a religion that cannot deliver the results it promises - then one won't obtain the promised results, no matter how hard one practices.

This is the fault of that religion, not of the practitioner.

You can try all you want, but finger painting is not going to make you enlightened.

The wrong path is the wrong path.
It's just that a person does not and cannot know in advance which path is the right one.

the practical fact is that it is not all or nothing

 

[wynn]

Sincere practicing believers that go on to reject theism are proof that your premise of a special "tool" that can confirm faith is false.

Not necessarily.

Perhaps there are gradations or other speciation of religious advancement, and each religion/path provides for only one stretch of the way; after which, the person is compelled to switch paths.

For example, you could possibly ride a small bike for children - but you would feel very dissatisfied. Children are happy to ride those bikes, but grown ups need bigger bikes to be happy riding them.

 

[wynn]

There is no strata, you made that up. There is no difference between the soon to be sainted Mother Teresa and the average believer.

I don't like to believe this.
I see no way to consistently support the idea that there is no difference among people.

 

[wynn]

Only if one accepts from the onset that there is nothing to be gaiend by spiritual practice

What can be gained from spiritual practice varies from one religion to another; even the concept of "gain" is under discussion.

Some religions will go so far as to say "There is nothing to gain," others criminalize the idea of gain - "You should just do the practice, and not think of what is in it for you."

As rational agents, we approach (esp. new) activities with hopes of gaining something by them.
Frankly, I don't know what to hope to gain from spiritual practice.
I suppose this puts me into the "If you aim for nothing, you will surely hit it" group.

But at least I put a bit of a halt on a headless spiritual quest!

the practical fact is that it is not all or nothing

Elaborate, please.

 

[lightgigantic]

Religion doesn't project faith, therefore by definition it is a waist of space, time, and money. On top of that it starts wars by confusion.

Historically speaking, ts probably the single most defining aspect of culture
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN7-EvgKAsk&feature=relmfu

 

[wynn]

" I create the notion that temperature cannot be measured accurately. The reason you cannot is because I require the exclusive use of tape measures only.
Attempt to disprove Mr A when he says temperature cannot be measured accurately. The reason atheism has not been disproved lies within. "

I don't understand this. I didn't understand it when it was first posted either.

I didn't and don't understand the post that this was originally a reply to -
post 144:

I create a myth of a big pink elephant that lives in the sky. The reason you cannot see it is because it is invisible. This pink elephant rules this world. Attempt to disprove Mr A when he says the elephant exists. The reason why religion has not been disproved lies within.

 

[wynn]

That is certainly one argument, but not necessarily the one being addressed here, given the way the discussion has moved since.
Your primary argument is that God exists... and all you offer by way of support is "you have to follow a certain path" (or words to that effect), a path which requires one to have belief that God exists, and a path which if it ultimately does not lead to where God can not be witnessed/evidenced (or however you want to call it that is beyond mere belief) then it is the fault of the practitioner. And if you choose to dismiss the claim, and not to follow this path, then you are akin to "a high-school drop out" in such matters.

Hmmm - and yet you're not willing to do the same to see how it's possible to measure microkelvin with a tape-measure.
:shrug:

Furthermore, your arguments that only those that "fall short from practical experience that establishes it as an irrevocable fact" would turn away from theism really does nothing to separate the "path" from a process of brainwashing... where only those where the brainwashing sticks will "see God".
And you wrap this up with "but if you don't achieve - it's your fault, not the process"... which might certainly help imprint the brainwashing on some (who then manage to convince themselves they can "see God" etc).

There are people and things that are outside of one's league - or one is outside of their league.
There may still be some kind of communication between oneself and that league, but that doesn't make one part of that league.

Such is life.


I think theism is one such league that not everyone is part of.
It's a bit strange, since theism on principle purports to address and include everyone, given the definition of God - but the reality is that some people just are not part of theistic communities.

 

[Aqueous Id]

Worst thing about religion we have been asked to go and preach the gospel even to the frigg'n atheists!

I would say that the worst thing about religion is that it exists as a means to subvert human intelligence and to enslave free minds

 

[lightgigantic]

I would say that the worst thing about religion is that it exists as a means to subvert human intelligence and to enslave free minds

I'm not sure that atheism runs as default in terms of illuminating human intelligence or freeing the mind.

 

[Aqueous Id]

I'm not sure that atheism runs as default in terms of illuminating human intelligence or freeing the mind.

Anything that preserves the intellect frees the mind whether it involves belief or not.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Anything that preserves the intellect frees the mind whether it involves belief or not.

Can you;

1) explain what actually ''frees the mind''
2) give example of people whose minds are ''free''


thanks
jan.