Becoming a Whore?

Buddha1 said:
Although in the past I'd leave the discussion with you when it got to this part (about nature, mythology, femininity and patriarchy), because, yes I do not have enough knowledge about mythology --- and its totally difficult for me to understand your concepts.....but I can definitely see that you're barking up the wrong tree.

me))))))ahaaaaa, but how do you KNOW i am if as yo say you are not au fe with mythologial history?
it is wise to look at the ROOTS dont ya think?

Maybe I did, but then I asked you a question about......what was that, ecclestial something.....you've never replied to that.

me)))can you remember the url of that thread?i will try and reply then

Yes, earth is seen as feminine because it gives birth and sustains, but then nature is not only this earth. There is also the sky which is seen as masculine. And so many other symbols of nature. I think you've built on a theory on the heterosexual stereotypes of men being heteroseuxal, masculine and bad.

me)))well you are showing your ignoreance-wirth respect-regarding the prepatriarchal cosmological understandig. in that Strea there was see to be no division between heaven ad earth. it is the patriarchas who 'slice' up the Goddess! and from there desigante her place as earth and denigrate it whilst deifying the 'male' heavens

The patriarchal mindset is nothing but a cliche, and a superficial one at that, which seeks to judge men from what feminists see on the outside, compeletely ignoring the pain and suffereing that men go through on the inside. Men and masculinity are as much a part of nature as women and femininity. Men love nature as well as women do!

me)))Buddha1, your confusing a male MINDSET which is patriarchal with ALL males. i am not

a.) the ancient mythology and the church are far removed from each other and no comparison is valid. What church did cannot be blamed on men or masculinity.

me)))rubbish. anceint mythology was major influence on church, and from there the patriarcha bias frm their chosen pagan approriations and their Judaic christian additions completely alsmost dismiss Goddes. in this myth, Nature becomes th 'shit of the devil'!

b.) Sure women have received a lot from patriarchy. We can discuss this again. Soon.

me)))go tell it to he women who have been abused and batyered by the patriarchy. listen to THEM. not male apologists. same as listen to the VICTIMS of psychiatry, NOT the shrinks.

I see logic in this.....

If you mean that men and masculinity have dehumanised women and femininity, then I don't agree. AT least not completely. For me men are as much victims as women and two-spirited people.

me))please listen closely B,cause i have said itmanyt times before. men HAVEben victims of the patriarchy, of COURSE theyt have. so what we are on about is not ALL men, but a mindset that is prticular for males. clear?

Males are just as fond of nature as anybody else. Even to think otherwise is being biased.

me))))))of course. see above.

Tooooooooooo far fetched and based on stereotypes.

me))forget what that was referring to, sorry

By 'elites' if you mean 'heterosexual', then let me remind you that till as late as the Greeks men considered those who loved women or were promiscuous with women to be effeminate --- and thus 'unmanly'. Femininity in males had become denigrated even in the times of the Greeks which celebrated love between men as masculine.

me))))))yes i know and which proves that is is the FEMININE a certain male mindset fears, which also for thm includes Nature.

The heterosexuals became Elites much later --- gradually as Christianity took hold. Actually heterosexuals did not become elites till the onset of the 20th century. Today, they rule the roost. That doesn't mean you can view the past just by extrapolating 'today'.

mePPPit means the hetero patriarchal men have ruled the roost for lots longer than 20th century. why you think they went on and on in Bible etc about the rule for procreation?!....and their condemnation of males sleeping with males...?

You haven't yet answered to the account of denigration of femininity that I have enumerated in the thread "men and masculinity". Perhaps you haven't considered it because it doesn't fit in your concept of things or ideology. But unless you do, we can't get ahead.

i find it truly sad when men put down feminism. for it is they who have totally deconstructed the patriarchal scam. always depend on the victims to one day find a way.
i eel with you B, ou seem in your way misogynistic. sorry, but tis is how your sounding--to me at any rate.
 
Buddha1 said:
that's more or less the moral of the story!

oh, okay. Well I don't know about that. I guess everyone might have some level of gayness. I don't think I could feel the same way about a girl the way I feel about a girl though.
 
hug-a-tree said:
oh, okay. Well I don't know about that. I guess everyone might have some level of gayness. I don't think I could feel the same way about a girl the way I feel about a girl though.
Well, by the time the society is through with us, that does describe a lot of us!

But in reality, that is biologically speaking the truth is the opposite. Everyone has some sexual feelings for the opposite sex, when the primary sexual desire is for the same-sex. (of course there are exceptions!).

This is what I have learned after 10 years of extensive work with mainstream men.

I have already given several evidences for this assertion both from history, culture and biology. I will provide more when the time comes.
 
hug-a-tree said:
oh, okay. Well I don't know about that. I guess everyone might have some level of gayness. I don't think I could feel the same way about a girl the way I feel about a girl though.
:confused: :confused:

The society attempts to block our same-sex needs/ capacities since our childhood. Some of us really loose touch with them. But sometimes people are jolted from this blockage, when it comes out all of a sudden when they least expected it. I have seen or heard it happening both with men as well as women.
 
Only a real prick can call a woman a whore.

But it takes a big prick with a picayune brain to want to define the meaning of the word whore.
 
What's wrong with the dictionary definitions? They've served our language just fine for hundreds of years. Whore is just another word for prostitute, a woman who is paid for sex. A slut is any woman who has many sexual partners, whether she gets paid or not. Whether these words have positive or negative connotations, and therefore whether it's an insult or a compliment to call a woman that, depends on the moral codes of the era and culture and in our culture it's generally been an insult. But the root meanings are pretty clear. The subtleties are in the fine points of what constitutes "payment." And if the payment is something other than monetary, how many times does she have to do it for that payment to qualify?

A certain woman doesn't really like sex--or perhaps doesn't really like heterosexual sex--but she marries a man she more or less likes and agrees to have sex with him regularly, in return for a home and support for herself and the children she wants. Is she a whore? What if she doesn't tell him of her feelings and lets him think she likes it? What if that marriage doesn't work out and she marries another man who gives her a nicer house and sends her kids to an Ivy League school? And then another who gives her servants and diamonds and stock options? What if she does this ten times in her lifetime?

A substantial number of women born since WWII have as many as twenty sex partners in one year and may have more than fifty in their lifetime. Not necessarily overlapping. Short romances that run their course in a few weeks interspersed with even shorter ones that don't last beyone one or two dates. Women who have strong sex drives and don't suppress them. Pretty much like a lot of men. Are they sluts? What if these romances do overlap, pretty much like a lot of men? What if a lot of them are one-time only, pretty much like a lot of men?
 
genep said:
Only a real prick can call a woman a whore.

But it takes a big prick with a picayune brain to want to define the meaning of the word whore.
what are your thoughts on the word 'homo' and its usage to describe men?
 
Dreama said:
Well, certainly I missed the part where you had rewritten the dictionary. Have you been off your meds long?
Fraggle Rocker said:
What's wrong with the dictionary definitions? They've served our language just fine for hundreds of years......Whether these words have positive or negative connotations, and therefore whether it's an insult or a compliment to call a woman that, depends on the moral codes of the era and culture and in our culture it's generally been an insult. But the root meanings are pretty clear.
Dreama, your frustration and way of talking clearly shows that you are speaking from a point of view of a person from 'vested interest group'. I can't expect you to be objective in determining or accepting the truth then.

Dictonary definitions are only reflections of the language we use, and how we use it. And our language is often a reflection of the mores and values we hold as a society. Often, in matters such as these we invent words to describe specific situations or qualities that we want to uphold or denigrate --- depending on how we want our people to think and act.

Slut or whore is one example. The other example is 'unmanly'. There is no direct equivalent of 'slut' for a man --- if there would be an equivalent it would read something like 'virile' or 'real man'. And similarly there is no equivalent word for 'unmanly' for woman. The dictionary doesn't have the word 'unwomanly'.

As societies and their mores change, languages and dictionary meanings also change --- and new ones are (sometimes artificially) introduced, while several old ones become obsolete.

The concept of slut or whore was, from the point of a man, a good 'reign' on sexually aggressive women, who otherwise were given extreme (although invisible) power over men to obtain sexual gratifications (and thus exploiting them) --- as women had been made the source of man's 'social masculinity'.

The modern heterosexual society is openly pro-women and anti-man. It has taken the sting from the word whore or slut, and it really doesn't mean all that bad for women in the west. But that means that the situation of men has fallen down immenesly, since now they have few safeguards against being exploited by women (see the thread: female sexpidemic). One day, the word would probably be written off from the dictionary.

And Dreama, that's where when we want to find out the truth, it becomes important to remove the words with cultural connotations in order to find out what nature says and wants.

After all, the word 'homosexual' was introduced in the early 20th century only to marginalise and denigrate scientifically, sexual bonds between men --- as religion was weakening. It was incorporated into the dictionary way afterwards. The concept of heterosexuality came much later.

Do you know, originally heterosexuality referred to a sexual perversion where the individual wanted way too much sex with the opposite-sex? Today, we have a different meaning in the dictionary.

But if we can find out (as I have shown) another angle to the truth, we can and should have another meaning for these words.

This is Globalisation backwards --- from east to the west. West has entered our societies, has changed our concepts and definitions (including dictionary definitions!), why are you so afraid of your own definitions being challenged!
 
I honestly didn't want to go through five pages of material to type this. So this is how it is where I'm from (it might not be the same everywhere, and I'm not claiming it to be): There is a strong double standard. Men who constantly recieve sex are considered "players", but women who constantly recieve sex are usually seen as "sluts" or "whores". In the same way, it's unacceptable for a guy to lead a girl on, but its commonplace for women to do this. I don't want to stereotype anybody, but this is from my own personal experiences, observations, and analysis of the situation.

AmishRakeFight
 
Last edited:
Buddha1 said:
what are your thoughts on the word 'homo' and its usage to describe men?
Why does the heart of true heterosexual men sink for the plight of women, but they don't feel anything at all for the pain and sufferings of men?

I'll tell you why, because they can't relate with men. They can only relate with women. It's actually very funny to think of them as 'manly'.

The heterosexual society propagates this attitude and trains men to kill their ability to relate with other men, as a part of what they have to go through for becoming heterosexual. It involves breaking men apart from other men.

However, being naturally masculine and a true man is all about understanding men, relating with them and feeling their pain and happiness!
 
duendy said:
me)))Buddha1, your confusing a male MINDSET which is patriarchal with ALL males. i am not

duendy said:
me))please listen closely B,cause i have said itmanyt times before. men HAVEben victims of the patriarchy, of COURSE theyt have. so what we are on about is not ALL men, but a mindset that is prticular for males. clear?
Deundy what are these males who are not part of the patriarchy, and have been victims of the patriarchy?

How are these males different from the males who are part of the partriarchy? Is this difference social or biological? What makes these males different?

What is the mindset particular for the males?
 
duendy said:
mePPPit means the hetero patriarchal men have ruled the roost for lots longer than 20th century. why you think they went on and on in Bible etc about the rule for procreation?!....and their condemnation of males sleeping with males...?
What makes you think they were heterosexuals? Sure they made sex between men a sin (is it sexual intercourse or just any kind of sex --- is even mutual masturbation between two men a sin?) --- but they also made masturbation a sin, and of course non-marital male-female sex was a sin too.

You have to understand that the concepts of sexuality and sexual preference is only a modern one. Earlier people did not think in those ways. They banned sex between men because that did lead to procreation --- and those guys really needed to swell their numbers --- See they were just starting off.

In all likelihood this making of sexual intercourse between men a sin, which was meant for abetting reproduction and to deal with the widespread practise of sex between men which was a great obstacle in enforcing the marriage institution, as well as an impediment in civilising men into a new religion --- triggered a a social response which led to the empowerment of some groups, who finally developed the concept of 'sexual orientation' to further consolidate their powers.
 
duendy said:
By 'elites' if you mean 'heterosexual', then let me remind you that till as late as the Greeks men considered those who loved women or were promiscuous with women to be effeminate --- and thus 'unmanly'. Femininity in males had become denigrated even in the times of the Greeks which celebrated love between men as masculine.

me))))))yes i know and which proves that is is the FEMININE a certain male mindset fears, which also for thm includes Nature.
Duendy, I think you also have to break this psychological connection that you have made between 'heterosexuality' being the oppressor of femininity, while male-male sexual bonds being supporters of femininity. That may be the visible reality today, but believe me, behind men's mask the reality is still the same as it was in the time of the Greeks.

I think that true heterosexuals are much more amenable to femininity in men, than masculine men who like other masculine men --- some of whom will be the worst oppressors of femininity. It's not good but that is how it is. It is not natural for men to do that, (if it is natural then it is part of negative masculinity), but it is the social manipulation of men that has brought about this situation.
 
hug-a-tree said:
oh, well... I really don't think I'm bi though. I'm just being honest with you.
Well, good for you! But never be sure about these things. I know so many people who have just suddenly fell in love with people they 'out' of their sexual profession!
 
Buddha1 said:
Deundy what are these males who are not part of the patriarchy, and have been victims of the patriarchy?

me)))pagans, 'heretics'.......

How are these males different from the males who are part of the partriarchy? Is this difference social or biological? What makes these males different?

me))belief. men who would have not been prt of the ptriarchal mindset would have been closer to Nature, and more part of the Goddess Stream

What is the mindset particular for the males?
which males?/...forpatriarchy it is someting like this pttern----emphasis on procreation, andownership of womn and Nature. you can see this attitudew throughout patriarchal mythology, and even now in materialistic science. it is a fear of Nature and a desire to control it, and others
 
Buddha1 said:
What makes you think they were heterosexuals? Sure they made sex between men a sin (is it sexual intercourse or just any kind of sex --- is even mutual masturbation between two men a sin?) --- but they also made masturbation a sin, and of course non-marital male-female sex was a sin too.

me)))))'heterosexual: having, or pertaining to sexual attraction towards the opposite sex' (Chambers dict.). so itis clear. patriarchal myth promotes sex between men and women and condemns sex between males. ad even in so-called homoexual-friendly anceint Greek times, to be a 'bottom' was considered inferior than being a 'masculine' 'top'. and 'effiminacy' was denigrated to. or let's remember, femininity was considered LESS thah masculinity. ad Nature les than the heavens

You have to understand that the concepts of sexuality and sexual preference is only a modern one. Earlier people did not think in those ways. They banned sex between men because that did lead to procreation --- and those guys really needed to swell their numbers --- See they were just starting off.

me)))well, yer entitled to your opinion, but as i see it it is clear they DID feel that way as is evidenced in rthe TEXT of their myth.

In all likelihood this making of sexual intercourse between men a sin, which was meant for abetting reproduction and to deal with the widespread practise of sex between men which was a great obstacle in enforcing the marriage institution, as well as an impediment in civilising men into a new religion --- triggered a a social response which led to the empowerment of some groups, who finally developed the concept of 'sexual orientation' to further consolidate their powers.
if say you looked at Allegro's research in hisbook The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross. you see how the gnostic-christian mystics revered the male seed, ad concoted thebelief of 'God's' "spermatozoa' supposedly collated andmore powerful in certain plants and fungi which were psychedelic. we could see tis belief as seed-centric
this is really interestinf becaue it reveals howpatriarchal values create the mystical sense for ancient man. theidea that 'spirit' is separated from Nature. so yet again we have this patriarchal fear of Nature. this shit is shot thru the whole mindset!
 
Buddha1 said:
Duendy, I think you also have to break this psychological connection that you have made between 'heterosexuality' being the oppressor of femininity, while male-male sexual bonds being supporters of femininity. That may be the visible reality today, but believe me, behind men's mask the reality is still the same as it was in the time of the Greeks.

me))))no. i a saying the patriarchy oppression. of course some heterosexual males are fine wit women and gays. ........yu know in te persecution of women in te middle ages, that along with tem lso pagan males were prsecuted dont you? AND apparently the very dergatory term 'faggots' to descriobe homosexual males derive from tose times when they were used to light the burnings!.....point: both women and gueer males hafe both recifved persecution from the patriarchy.
Buddha1. the patriarchal mindset demands ORDER. a favorite term of their writ in the Bible in certain books is 'ABOMINATION'. as a kid that word used o frighten me a bit. it is so judgemental-soundig. well nowwhat i means?it was used as a tern to denigrate Goddess religion. why? because their rituals involved ambiguity. males dressed as women, males having sex with each other etc. to the patriarchy this was totally evil, and hence the term

I think that true heterosexuals are much more amenable to femininity in men, than masculine men who like other masculine men --- some of whom will be the worst oppressors of femininity. It's not good but that is how it is. It is not natural for men to do that, (if it is natural then it is part of negative masculinity), but it is the social manipulation of men that has brought about this situation.

what it is is tat all kinds ofmen exist. in the Ga community we havemales in various states o acceptance. some try and live up to their idea of maculinity. this might mean dressin in stereotypical 'macho' uniforms. and of course we have the S&M fraternity, which can get pretty heavy and grosss. YES, i agree wid you that for many men caught up in al that there is shame about themselves. and with tis will be a fight against femininity. against sensitivity. a love of aggression, and power. women can also get into this too.
i am seeing it a deep problem brought about by limited understanding of myth, ad cultural propaganda.......but alo i dont wholly condemn SUMifit harms noone. spme like it rough. what can i say...?
 
hmmmm Buddha1, i am confused. you claimed i hadn't addressed a question of yours from an earlier thread (the one you linked me to here, buthaving looked at it i cannot for the life of me see where you asked me aything outright......?
 
Back
Top