Attitudes to rape
- Thread starter James R
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francois:
Rape requires intent on the part of the perpetrator, as well as lack of consent of the victim. You can't rape somebody by accident, because you won't have the relevant intent.
This is a tricky situation. If she is so drunk she really doesn't know what she is doing, and a guy takes advantage of her, then this might amount to rape. But if she was only very drunk and was, as you say, "obviously willing", then that's not rape.
I have actually seen this sort of thing happen a lot, and I've never seen it result in a rape accusation. In these borderline cases, what usually happens is the girl wakes up the next day, kicking herself for sleeping with some guy and vowing never to get that drunk again. But she doesn't call the police. She blames herself.
As I say, though, it is a very fine line. If you're the guy, I'd say you'd better make damn sure the girl knows what she is doing when you decide to have sex with her - just in case.
Why do you put all the responsibility on the girl, and none on the guy? That is a double-standard. If he took advantage of her, he is morally in the wrong, even if not legally, wouldn't you say?
Women shouldn't be "fair game" when they're drunk, although many men seem to think they are. This kind of situation really says more about the morals of the guy than it says about the girl, if you ask me.
I agree. Girls should be careful. But guys shouldn't take unfair advantage, either.
He must also have the intent to have sex regardless of consent. If he can show that he honestly believed she was consenting, that may be a defence in a rape case.
Deciding to get drunk is not the same as deciding to have sex.
If you decide to get so drunk you can't tell I'm stealing your wallet from your pocket, that doesn't mean I should get off scott free if I take advantage of your drunkeness to steal your wallet. You didn't consent to giving me your wallet. You only consented to getting drunk.
Why is the male absolved of all responsibility all of a sudden? Is it not the male's responsibility not to take advantage of drunken girls?
Rape requires intent on the part of the perpetrator, as well as lack of consent of the victim. You can't rape somebody by accident, because you won't have the relevant intent.
This is a tricky situation. If she is so drunk she really doesn't know what she is doing, and a guy takes advantage of her, then this might amount to rape. But if she was only very drunk and was, as you say, "obviously willing", then that's not rape.
I have actually seen this sort of thing happen a lot, and I've never seen it result in a rape accusation. In these borderline cases, what usually happens is the girl wakes up the next day, kicking herself for sleeping with some guy and vowing never to get that drunk again. But she doesn't call the police. She blames herself.
As I say, though, it is a very fine line. If you're the guy, I'd say you'd better make damn sure the girl knows what she is doing when you decide to have sex with her - just in case.
Why do you put all the responsibility on the girl, and none on the guy? That is a double-standard. If he took advantage of her, he is morally in the wrong, even if not legally, wouldn't you say?
Women shouldn't be "fair game" when they're drunk, although many men seem to think they are. This kind of situation really says more about the morals of the guy than it says about the girl, if you ask me.
I agree. Girls should be careful. But guys shouldn't take unfair advantage, either.
He must also have the intent to have sex regardless of consent. If he can show that he honestly believed she was consenting, that may be a defence in a rape case.
Deciding to get drunk is not the same as deciding to have sex.
If you decide to get so drunk you can't tell I'm stealing your wallet from your pocket, that doesn't mean I should get off scott free if I take advantage of your drunkeness to steal your wallet. You didn't consent to giving me your wallet. You only consented to getting drunk.
Why is the male absolved of all responsibility all of a sudden? Is it not the male's responsibility not to take advantage of drunken girls?
How are you able to be so sure that this can happen?
I am reposting this for the idiots that keep posting that I justify rape and support rapists. Apparantly they make it up as they go along.
Generally debate involves debating someone with an opposing not shared view. But personal dislikes have a habit of resulting in talking shit about other posters regardless of their actual view point. You let your personal feelings allow you to read selectively, misquote, misrepresent and make personal insults and adhom all of which makes you no better than any other person responsible for a miscarriage of justice.
Generally debate involves debating someone with an opposing not shared view. But personal dislikes have a habit of resulting in talking shit about other posters regardless of their actual view point. You let your personal feelings allow you to read selectively, misquote, misrepresent and make personal insults and adhom all of which makes you no better than any other person responsible for a miscarriage of justice.
A involuntary erection is no big deal.
I'm talking about this statement of yours, how do you know this?
For J.B.
I'm curious: are you playing some sort of role in your question to James R about shame, or do you really not know?
I admit, sometimes I forget that there are people out there who don't get it, aren't paying attention to this particular subject, or have somehow, otherwise missed it.
How do we know that many men who are raped feel a tremendous sense of guilt if they got an erection? It's in the literature, and if you've ever known a male rape survivor, you would know that the literature cannot prepare you for the reality of how that friend feels.
I'm curious: are you playing some sort of role in your question to James R about shame, or do you really not know?
- Myth: Getting an erection or ejaculation during sexual assault means "you really wanted it" or you consented.
Fact: Getting an erection shows nothing other than your body responds the way it is suppose to. It has nothing to do with desire. If you were penetrated, the pressure from the prostate gland would cause an erection. Ejaculation is also very normal and some rapist will go out of their way to make sure you ejaculate, to try and make you feel ashamed, (adds to their dominate feeling of power) and they know it will likely reduce your chances of reporting the crime. (Univ. of Wisconsin)
- Experts believe that current male rape statistics vastly under-represent the actual number of men who are raped each year both because crime statistics often do not actually include men as potential victims of rape and because men are less likely to report rape. Research suggests that the rates of under-reporting among men are even higher than those of women.
While male rape occurs, it's often not considered an acceptable topic for discussion because of the commonly held beliefs that men are "too big," "too strong," or "too much into sex" to be sexually assaulted. The adverse effects of commonly held gender stereotypes of males contribute to the stigma, shame, and embarrassment a male survivor goes through as they begin to cope with what has happened to them. ("Go Ask Alice", Columbia Univ.)
- Men, young men and boys suffer rape-related trauma by rape and sexual assault just as female victims do. In addition, due to male socialization to consider all male-male sexual contact to be shameful, to 'be tough and take it like a man' and to eschew victimhood in all its forms, many males who were survivors of male rape choose to suffer in silence rather than risk reporting the crime. These victims consider the shame of disclosure and their likely shunning by other males, as worse than the crime itself; a form of double-bind shame similar to the double-bind blame that male-female rape victims often face ....
.... When a male is raped (by a male or female) the involuntary physiological response of erection or orgasm cannot be taken to imply that the act was welcomed by the victim. A capable assailant, male or female, can induce these involuntary physical responses in the majority of males with force and/or with deception. Likewise, in incest or incestuous male-male rape, 'voluntary' initiation, 'voluntary' participation, and involuntary enjoyment by the victim, do not imply that the sexual assault is consensual, less loathsome, or less traumatic to the victim. Many people mistake these involuntary physiological effects, falsely, as indications of consent, when in fact the male rape victims have no more control over his involuntary physiological responses than do female rape victims. (Wikipedia)
Fact: Getting an erection shows nothing other than your body responds the way it is suppose to. It has nothing to do with desire. If you were penetrated, the pressure from the prostate gland would cause an erection. Ejaculation is also very normal and some rapist will go out of their way to make sure you ejaculate, to try and make you feel ashamed, (adds to their dominate feeling of power) and they know it will likely reduce your chances of reporting the crime. (Univ. of Wisconsin)
- Experts believe that current male rape statistics vastly under-represent the actual number of men who are raped each year both because crime statistics often do not actually include men as potential victims of rape and because men are less likely to report rape. Research suggests that the rates of under-reporting among men are even higher than those of women.
While male rape occurs, it's often not considered an acceptable topic for discussion because of the commonly held beliefs that men are "too big," "too strong," or "too much into sex" to be sexually assaulted. The adverse effects of commonly held gender stereotypes of males contribute to the stigma, shame, and embarrassment a male survivor goes through as they begin to cope with what has happened to them. ("Go Ask Alice", Columbia Univ.)
- Men, young men and boys suffer rape-related trauma by rape and sexual assault just as female victims do. In addition, due to male socialization to consider all male-male sexual contact to be shameful, to 'be tough and take it like a man' and to eschew victimhood in all its forms, many males who were survivors of male rape choose to suffer in silence rather than risk reporting the crime. These victims consider the shame of disclosure and their likely shunning by other males, as worse than the crime itself; a form of double-bind shame similar to the double-bind blame that male-female rape victims often face ....
.... When a male is raped (by a male or female) the involuntary physiological response of erection or orgasm cannot be taken to imply that the act was welcomed by the victim. A capable assailant, male or female, can induce these involuntary physical responses in the majority of males with force and/or with deception. Likewise, in incest or incestuous male-male rape, 'voluntary' initiation, 'voluntary' participation, and involuntary enjoyment by the victim, do not imply that the sexual assault is consensual, less loathsome, or less traumatic to the victim. Many people mistake these involuntary physiological effects, falsely, as indications of consent, when in fact the male rape victims have no more control over his involuntary physiological responses than do female rape victims. (Wikipedia)
I admit, sometimes I forget that there are people out there who don't get it, aren't paying attention to this particular subject, or have somehow, otherwise missed it.
How do we know that many men who are raped feel a tremendous sense of guilt if they got an erection? It's in the literature, and if you've ever known a male rape survivor, you would know that the literature cannot prepare you for the reality of how that friend feels.
I think all these 3 in combination
Woman had many past sexual partners + Woman was drunk at the time (i.e. got herself drunk) + Woman at no time clearly said "No" to sex.
would mean he didn't rape her, if 2 of them exist in the given situation maybe he is not guilty then either, it's hard to say for certain.
Woman had many past sexual partners + Woman was drunk at the time (i.e. got herself drunk) + Woman at no time clearly said "No" to sex.
would mean he didn't rape her, if 2 of them exist in the given situation maybe he is not guilty then either, it's hard to say for certain.
i thought this thread was yours darksiddz i saw the poll, then i scrolled down to see that james was the author, and i knew it was going to be an actual debate with facts and shit like that so i didnt post a response apart from this one now that adds no insight to anything,
i did click all of the poll answers though, except for the last one,
peace.
i did click all of the poll answers though, except for the last one,
peace.
thats 16 pages about rape. not to sound arrogant or ignorant but i know why rape happens its because we are animals with urges. there are many seperate cases with seperate minor details, but it all boils down to natural desires if we scrape away the psychobabble and modern ethics and morals debate.
you only have to watch a nature documentary on animal mating behaviour to figure this out, or watch how your cats and dogs behave at home when it comes to sex,
peace.
you only have to watch a nature documentary on animal mating behaviour to figure this out, or watch how your cats and dogs behave at home when it comes to sex,
peace.
Well.. that's debatable. The fact that we're all 'animals with urges' doesn't explain why some people rape and others don't, does it.
So there's clearly more to it, isn't there.
But in any case the thread's not about 'why rape happens'. It's about attitudes to rape. So a better contribution would be to explain how and why, in your opinion, style of dress, or amount of drink consumed, or marital status constitute mitigating circumstances in an assault.
Or you could leave it at saying that you checked all of the options except the last one, and leave us all to wonder about your reasons for doing so.
Peace.
So there's clearly more to it, isn't there.
But in any case the thread's not about 'why rape happens'. It's about attitudes to rape. So a better contribution would be to explain how and why, in your opinion, style of dress, or amount of drink consumed, or marital status constitute mitigating circumstances in an assault.
Or you could leave it at saying that you checked all of the options except the last one, and leave us all to wonder about your reasons for doing so.
Peace.
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