Attitudes to rape

[one_raven]

What I am clumsily getting at is that it's not always clear when sex is consenting or not. Here's a better example. Drunk college chicks. Let's say a college chick gets smashed and ends up hitting on a guy whom she would normally never think twice about screwing. She's not thinking rationally, yet, in her drunken state, she is obviously willing (though sober, she might disagree--emphatically saying that he may have even raped her). You and I would probably agree that she is consenting, even though she was in an altered state.

In the UK, that is legally rape now (I am fairly certain that law passed).
It is the man's responsibility to judge whether or not the woman is sufficiently intoxicated to have her mental state altered enough to not have the ability to rationally consent to sex.

I'd like to know people's reactions to that.

 

[Nasor]

Suppose my girlfriend comes over to my house, drops her car keys on my coffee table, and drinks until she passes out. I want to go to the store to buy a bag of potato chips, but my car is in the shop. My girlfriend has allowed me to drive her car many times in the past, so I take her car keys and use her car to drive to the store. Much like with rape, the legal definition of "theft" is taking someone else's property without their consent. Since my girlfriend was unable to consent to me driving her car, I have just stolen her car. My girlfriend wakes up before I return and suddenly decides that she hates me, so she calls the police and demands that I be arrested for car theft.

Suppose that the day before my court date the same judge had sentenced a car thief to 2 years in jail for stealing a car from a random stranger’s driveway in the middle of the night. When I go before the judge I say “Your honor, I know I shouldn’t have used her car without her explicit permission, but she was passed out drunk at the time. Also, she had always allowed me to drive her car any time I asked in the past, so I didn’t think it would be a problem this time.”

Should I receive the same sentence as the previous car thief, or was my crime mitigated somewhat by the circumstances?

 

[Nasor]

In the UK, that is legally rape now (I am fairly certain that law passed).
It is the man's responsibility to judge whether or not the woman is sufficiently intoxicated to have her mental state altered enough to not have the ability to rationally consent to sex.

I'd like to know people's reactions to that.

Since when are people not responsible for their own actions while drunk? Try using "But I never would have done it if I hadn't been drinking!" as an excuse if you drive drunk and hit someone.

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

I cant believe you haven't come across a guy who cant get it up at first, but does after coaxing.
I also find it difficult to see how accurate research could be undertaken for this, as it's basically impossible to quantify the degree of fear and/or anxiety an individual is going through.

I'm not talking about men getting it up after coaxing that's why, uless you consider being dragged off the street with a knife at your throat, threats to slash your genitals etc as coaxing? Would this give you an erection?

Oh and No I haven't come across one that needed coaxing

Don't get caught up in the many 'I've missed the point' replies I've had to the point I made originally which is that physically male on female rape is more similar to male on male rape than female on male rape. Do you disagree?

 

[Pete]

Since when are people not responsible for their own actions while drunk?

This is a contentious legal issue.

The issue is one of Mens rea: the culpability for a "specific intent" crime depends on the intent of the accused. Ie an offense committed in 'cold blood' act is considered more heinous than an the same offense commited in an altered state of mind.

See also Intoxication defense at Wikipedia.

The defense does not apply in all jurisdictions, nor for all crimes, nor for all situations.

 

[imaplanck.]

Suppose my girlfriend comes over to my house, drops her car keys on my coffee table, and drinks until she passes out. I want to go to the store to buy a bag of potato chips, but my car is in the shop. My girlfriend has allowed me to drive her car many times in the past, so I take her car keys and use her car to drive to the store. Much like with rape, the legal definition of "theft" is taking someone else's property without their consent. Since my girlfriend was unable to consent to me driving her car, I have just stolen her car. My girlfriend wakes up before I return and suddenly decides that she hates me, so she calls the police and demands that I be arrested for car theft.

Suppose that the day before my court date the same judge had sentenced a car thief to 2 years in jail for stealing a car from a random stranger’s driveway in the middle of the night. When I go before the judge I say “Your honor, I know I shouldn’t have used her car without her explicit permission, but she was passed out drunk at the time. Also, she had always allowed me to drive her car any time I asked in the past, so I didn’t think it would be a problem this time.”

Should I receive the same sentence as the previous car thief, or was my crime mitigated somewhat by the circumstances?

Yes you should if you can convince the judge that there was an implied arragement that you could take the car any time and it wasn't made clear that this arrangement had changed for any reason.

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

Theoryofrelativity,

Have you ever known anyone who gets physically aroused by the anxiety, fear and danger of having sex in public places?


Are you aware that there are men who can't even get it up unless they are consumed by fear and anxiety - yes, even to the point of risk of life?
Have you ever heard of extreme B+D?

Anxiety and fear do not necessarily equate to impotence.

Have I ever met one? I am one and no anxiety or fear is involved. I think you are mistaking the fear of rape for sexual arousal and anticipation. They are NOT the same.

Re the cases you mention they are all intended within a sexual context and the participant is NOT an unwilling victim. Thus the act is known about in
advance and the fear etc is consentual not forced upon them.

It may be than a man in a concentration camp about to be gased (while being gased even) can get an erection on demand, I just doubt it strongly, that is all. I just would like some evidence that men can get erections on demand regardless of their emotional state as thus far emotional state is one of the leading causes of erectile dysfunction.

 

[Nasor]

Yes you should if you can convince the judge that there was an implied arragement that you could take the car any time and it wasn't made clear that this arrangement had changed for any reason.

No "implied arrangement" - I just figured that since she had always said yes in the past whenever I asked her to drive the car, she wouldn't mind if I drove it to the store while she was passed out drunk.

I should be clear here, I'm not saying that borrowing a car without explicit permission is good moral behavior - but does anyone here seriously believe that a person in the scenario I described should face the same punishment as a thief who takes your car out of the driveway in the middle of the night?

 

[imaplanck.]

Oh and No I haven't come across one that needed coaxing ?

Well I thought your beauty may have made one or two guys anxious. OK enough of the bum licking.

Don't get caught up in the many 'I've missed the point' replies I've had to the point I made originally which is that physically male on female rape is more similar to male on male rape than female on male rape. Do you disagree?

...........No I dont disagree.



----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[imaplanck.]

I'm not talking about men getting it up after coaxing that's why, uless you consider being dragged off the street with a knife at your throat, threats to slash your genitals etc as coaxing? Would this give you an erection??

I would have to admit that this situation would not give me an errection. This is is in no shape or form what I would consider coaxing an errection though.

 

[one_raven]

I think you are mistaking the fear of rape for sexual arousal and anticipation. They are NOT the same.

Re the cases you mention they are all intended within a sexual context and the participant is NOT an unwilling victim. Thus the act is known about in
advance and the fear etc is consentual not forced upon them.

I suppose it depends upon the person.
It can go either way...
Either the person wants to have sex in situations of heightened danger, excitement etc, and places themselves in that situation with the intended goal of sexual pleasure...
Or, whether or not you believe it, the danger is what turns the person on, thefore they become sexually aroused by the sense of danger itself, regardless of anticipation, or even the prospect of sexual encounter.

Danger is thrilling, it is exciting, it's arousing in and of itself.

 

[francois]

In the UK, that is legally rape now (I am fairly certain that law passed).
It is the man's responsibility to judge whether or not the woman is sufficiently intoxicated to have her mental state altered enough to not have the ability to rationally consent to sex.

I'd like to know people's reactions to that.

I think it's ridiculous. What if the guy is drunk as well? If he is still expected to responsibly judge whether or not the girl is intoxicated enough to make a rational decision, then there is an imposed double standard. He's holding the male responsible, EVEN IF HE'S INTOXICATED, while alleviating responsiblity of the female if she is intoxicated.

Plus, while women may not be able to make rational decision when drunk (like men), she still made the rational decion to get drunk in the first place. It's the female's (is it is with males)responsibility to get drunk in situations that will not result in bad things happening. It's a bit of a shaft deal, because that entails a lot of lost drunken situations for females... but that's just another reason why it sucks to be female.

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

I suppose it depends upon the person.
It can go either way...
Either the person wants to have sex in situations of heightened danger, excitement etc, and places themselves in that situation with the intended goal of sexual pleasure...
Or, whether or not you believe it, the danger is what turns the person on, thefore they become sexually aroused by the sense of danger itself, regardless of anticipation, or even the prospect of sexual encounter.

Danger is thrilling, it is exciting, it's arousing in and of itself.

Raven I knew someone who only had a hard on from violence, thus he was a football hooligan (many football hooligans go in for that for the violence induced 'erection') I also knew of an arsonist who only got erections from lighting fires. I also know of the internet dude who had his cock cut off and allowed himself to be killed for 'pleasure'.

so I am aware of all this.

It is just NOT related to the point I was making.

 

[one_raven]

Raven I knew someone who only had a hard on from violence, thus he was a football hooligan (many football hooligans go in for that for the violence induced 'erection') I also knew of an arsonist who only got erections from lighting fires. I also know of the internet dude who had his cock cut off and allowed himself to be killed for 'pleasure'.

so I am aware of all this.

It is just NOT related to the point I was making.

I agree with your original point, I didn't call that into question.

However, the point I was making is that people can, and do, in fact, become sexually aroused in the most stressful, anxious and dangerous situations, contrary to what you were saying, and you seem to be acknowledging that fact.

Anxiety does not necessarily equate to erctile dysfunction.
Do you agree or disagree?

("erectile dysfunction" isn't that a great phrase? ).

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

I agree with your original point, I didn't call that into question.

However, the point I was making is that people can, and do, in fact, become sexually aroused in the most stressful, anxious and dangerous situations, contrary to what you were saying, and you seem to be acknowledging that fact.

Anxiety does not necessarily equate to erctile dysfunction.
Do you agree or disagree?

("erectile dysfunction" isn't that a great phrase? ).

I think that there is a different type of fear and anxiety associated with a crime being comitted against you than that associated with sexual fantasy fulfillment etc.

If a guy gets a hardon from violence and seeks violence to get a hardon, he does not afterwards complain about the violence. He does not feel depressed to the point of counselling about the violence. He enjoys it and seeks more. This is not what happens when someone is raped. They do not feel 'sexually satisfied' afterwards and go out of their way to repeat the experience.

Meanwhile I will accept a male and females physiology is vastly different.

I have just read a research paper re men who are being raped by other men

"Research indicates that the most common sites for male rape involving post-puberty victims are outdoors in remote areas and in automobiles (the latter usually involving hitchhikers). Boys in their early and mid-teens are more likely to be victimized than older males (studies indicate a median victim age of 17). The form of assault usually involves penetration of the victim anally and/or orally, rather than stimulation of the victim's penis."

http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=32361#6

it does also cite cases where the males penis is stimulated by the man and ejaculates etc but this is in the minority. I thus accept it is possible, although rare.

 

[sderenzi]

I now become sleepy an bored on this topic, consider me out.

 

[J.B]

Houston & Texas News

Houston Rape Suspect Says Sex Was Consensual
Nov. 2, 2006

An illegal immigrant accused in at least two sexual attacks on women and suspected in five others denied the rapes and said the encounters involved consensual sex, his attorney said this morning.

Jose Fernando Rivera-Sanchez, 28, who identified himself as Leopoldo Sanchez to his court appointed lawyer, Gilberto Villarreal, is charged with two counts of aggravated sexual assault.

"He's denying he raped," Villarreal said. He said Rivera-Sanchez admitted to consensual sex in the cases, and asked Villarreal to hire investigators to look into the allegations and the backgrounds of the victims.

Police have said Rivera-Sanchez admitted he liked picking up prostitutes and smoking marijuana.

Prosecutor Sylvia Escobedo Newman said Houston police continue to investigate Rivera-Sanchez and said he may be implicated in five other assaults for a total of seven.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/4305826.html

 

[Bells]

However, the point I was making is that people can, and do, in fact, become sexually aroused in the most stressful, anxious and dangerous situations, contrary to what you were saying, and you seem to be acknowledging that fact.

Anxiety does not necessarily equate to erctile dysfunction.
Do you agree or disagree?

A lot of men get an erection as they are dying. I'd equate dying and knowing that you're about to die as being one of the most stressful situations any person can be in. I know my uncle was aroused even as he was gasping for his last breaths. And during those last few minutes, he was deeply traumatised by what he knew was coming. It wasn't anything dirty or nasty, he was devastated as he took those last breaths and his body just reacted. His bowels also emptied in the hospital bed. I remember one of his daughters found that to be more upsetting as she realised that he had completely lost all control of his body and that also added to his anxiety and stress. Lets face it, death is not pleasant and knowing that you've lost control is one of the most frightening things that one can face.

It's perfectly normal as the body does react to stress and fear. Some women also become aroused when raped, even if the rape is a violent one. Many rape victims also climax. It does not make the rape less horrendous, nor does it make it somehow pleasurable. Their body just reacts. It's one of the primary reasons for many rape victims, both male and female, to feel shame or guilt because they think their body betrayed them by their arousal. What they do not realise is that physiological responses cannot be helped and they aren't to blame for their body reacting.

 

[Bells]

I'm not talking about men getting it up after coaxing that's why, uless you consider being dragged off the street with a knife at your throat, threats to slash your genitals etc as coaxing? Would this give you an erection?

If the rapist is touching his genitals at the same time, the body would most probably react. I haven't heard of one female or male rapist who's stood there with a weapon and demanded that their male victim become aroused on cue. Most will sexually assault the male victim or perform oral sex, which is in effect rape. Some others just rape their victim regardless (either by anal sex or oral sex). Some male rapists will attempt to coax their female victims into become aroused to make their rape that little bit easier. It adds to their power over the victim (by victim I mean both male and female) and it also ensures that the victim is even more humiliated (not only by the assault but also by thinking that their body is somehow betraying them) and demeaned and feel like they've lost all power over themselves.

Some rapists also need to humiliate or do certain things to their victims (eg. acts of violence, etc) to become aroused themselves before they do rape them.

 

[one_raven]

A lot of men get an erection as they are dying. I'd equate dying and knowing that you're about to die as being one of the most stressful situations any person can be in. I know my uncle was aroused even as he was gasping for his last breaths. And during those last few minutes, he was deeply traumatised by what he knew was coming. It wasn't anything dirty or nasty, he was devastated as he took those last breaths and his body just reacted. His bowels also emptied in the hospital bed. I remember one of his daughters found that to be more upsetting as she realised that he had completely lost all control of his body and that also added to his anxiety and stress. Lets face it, death is not pleasant and knowing that you've lost control is one of the most frightening things that one can face.

It's perfectly normal as the body does react to stress and fear. Some women also become aroused when raped, even if the rape is a violent one. Many rape victims also climax. It does not make the rape less horrendous, nor does it make it somehow pleasurable. Their body just reacts. It's one of the primary reasons for many rape victims, both male and female, to feel shame or guilt because they think their body betrayed them by their arousal. What they do not realise is that physiological responses cannot be helped and they aren't to blame for their body reacting.

Very well stated, and I agree completely.