Athiests

Once in a while I will see a poster with truly bad grammer or an obviously very glaring typo that will change the entire stance they were trying to present, but when it's so obvious what the word they were trying for was and the one letter that's off is so close on the keyboard to the letter they actually wanted. I know exactly what you're talking about in the irony of some of the posts around here but Raithere's return on that just seemed overly petty. Just my humble opinion. Well this thread was quickly derailed, but at least there were some good replies, or I should say the kind of replies I was looking for. I hereby Cristen this thread hijacked ;) . Laterz.
 
Originally posted by Angelus
Rathiere, I realize that Godless attacked your level of education and thereby indirectly your intelligence but must we really resort to nitpicking in spelling. For heavens sake look at the relative position of v and b on a qwerty keyboard. I've seen way too many of these attacks on intelligence based on small spelling mistakes that are most likely typos. Surely there are more obvious faults in his writing where you don't have to resort to that?


Angelus, normally I agree and leave spelling mistakes alone. However, this was not the first time that Godless has resorted to attacks ad hominim against me in this thread and I thought it pertinent to point out his mistakes in the post he attacked me with. I would also point out that consistent misuse or misspelling of the same word generally indicates a misunderstanding of the word rather than a typo.

~Raithere
 
Refocusing

Originally posted by Squid Vicious
No, it is not. Perhaps "givers" is not the correct word. What these men are doing is creating or contributing. They accumulate wealth only after having contributed something useful to society. Wealth is a by-product, not the object. I would also disagree with you on your "altruistic" examples. each of those men required something in return, whether it be a goal, accolades, or whatever. you appear to be stuck on this financial aspect, which is, as i have said, not a prime concern in Rand's philosophy.


Still, I find that her philosophy lacks an essential compassion and have tried to point this out. If you find this in her work or her philosophy then please do point it out. Failing that we simply disagree in our POV of her philosophy, which is fine.

Raithere, rather than arguing here with you i suggest you go back and read it again.

And I will re-read it… being it's been a decade or more since I have. Still, I stand by my initial objection which, actually, was not so much a criticism of her philosophy entire as it was to these two paragraphs, which I still find to be mostly nonsensical and filled with assumptions and errors when analyzed.

Existence exists, and only existence exists. Existence is a primary: it is uncreated, indestructible, eternal. So if you are to postulate something beyond existence--some supernatural realm--you must do it by openly denying reason, dispencing with definitions, proofs, arguments, and saying flatly, " To Hell with argument, I have faith." That, of course, is a willful rejection of reason.

Objectivism advocates reason as man's sole means of knowledge, and therefore, for the reasons I have already given, it is athiest. It denies any supernatural dimension presented as a contradiction of nature, of existence. This applies not only to god, but also to every variant of the supernatural ever advocated or to be advocated. In other words, we accept reality, and that's all.* Leonard Peikoff, "The Philosophy of Objectivism"


~Raithere
 
tiassa

Xtian - Some people refer to Christians this way. "X" is a symbol for Christ, from the Greek letter chi (shaped like an X) of Christos (Christ).
 
Originally posted by Raithere
Still, I find that her philosophy lacks an essential compassion and have tried to point this out. If you find this in her work or her philosophy then please do point it out. Failing that we simply disagree in our POV of her philosophy, which is fine.

an essential compassion for who, exactly? her sympathy for her main characters is quite evident... you mean to say, really, that you believe she lacks compassion for those you would normally empathise with. nothing wrong with that, but it needed clarification. this is like saying malcolm X lacked compassion for white people... of course he did, that was kinda the whole point.

Rand herself fell somewhat short of her own philosophy in the end, yes (and didn't the detractors howl with glee on that little episode), however pulling her up on this is like pulling up Nietzsche for falling short of achieving the Ubermensch. hardly fair, and entirely irrelevant to the central ideas (regardless of how badly worded one or two of these might have been, yes?).

anyways... im done. i'm not a total follower either, as i mentioned, but, like with godless, she certainly opened my eyes to a couple of things, when i was younger and in need of a reason for my somewhat different viewpoint than what was being displayed around me. a certain amount of loyalty was therefore required and my duty is now discharged *smiles*
 
A philosopher is someone to point a way, not someone who has to live by his philosophy.

Nietzsche hugged a horse in compassion. So Christian.
Buddha probably stepped on an insect
 
A4Ever:

Don't you think that that incident with the horse is something an ubermensch, or at least Zarathrusra, would do?
 
Well, you could say that for most things: the 'bad' things are done to not let yourself be controlled by standard values: using the claws, thinking for yourself, experience,...

the 'good' things (like hugging the horse out of empathy) are done because 'new' values are being adopted.

But the hugging was at the beginning of his mental breakdown and Nietzsche said no Ubermensch had ever walked the earth...

I don't know... will you give an answer to your question?
 
I'm an atheist...

...who wants freedom.When I believed in God,I wanted to check just how truthul are these stories from Bible and anything else.Since I love science,more and more I discovered,I've finally stopped to believe in God,by age of 14!
I read books of neurosychology,biology,biochemistry,astronomy,arguments from both theistic and atheistic viewes,and I must say atheists always had the advantage in duscussions,mostly because when you believe in God you don't want to hear against him.So,I have small experience in that.I must admit I was forced to believe in God by my own fanatic parents.All I wanted was freedom,to think freely.I finally succedded in that.My parents are still too traditional,because the tradition is the thing,that keeps faith in God for all of these millenias.More stupid people are,more they believe in God.More they know,there is more evidence there is no God.Stephen Hawking with a few other scientists have successfuly calculated and PROVED,by mathematical and astrophyisical measurements,that our universe didn't need creator.It has been created accidentally by natural processeses which occurred.Many theists say,there have to have been some intelligence that created the universe.I 'm completely sure that it's totally different.So,when the wind blows,that's God's act?Give me a break.If God truly exists,he would be material,not imameterial.They say it' immaterial,therefore he doesn't exist.If God lives outside the nature,he doesn't exist.Nature=existence!
 
Gravage.

An atheist you are, if you claim to be. Though you are young, you are equiping yourself with education in order to defend your ideals, this is very commandable at such a young age. Most kids your age are either singing blindlessly hims at church or getting in trouble with drugs, and teenage pregnancy.

However no man can claim outright that "god does not exist" that's not what atheism is about, atheism is "without belief". Atheism is the willfull rejection of "belief" in god, God, gods, devils, satans, etc. The atheist can't prove that these mystical entities don't exist, it's not our job, atheist don't claim knowledge of the unknown, however we do accert, that if an individual claims knowledge of god, that he/she/or they present emperical evidence, needless to say this has not been done, hence what follows is that the burden of proof is upon the claimant of such entities not the atheist. This is why an atheist can't claim that god does not exist, we would have to prove it, with emperical evidence and as of yet, this has not been done either.
 
Re: Gravage.

Originally posted by Godless
This is why an atheist can't claim that god does not exist, we would have to prove it, with emperical evidence and as of yet, this has not been done either.
It depends on what definition of God the (strong) atheist uses. There are several logical arguments that have been provided against the existence of the Judeo-Xian God, for example. However, it would be very difficult to prove that the pantheist version of God does not exist, since one would have to prove that everything does not exist.

As you indicated, however, the weak atheist needs to prove nothing since he or she asserts neither the existence nor the non-existence of God.
 
Well said...

However I thought i made my self clear by speling "god" and "God" the difference in the "G"(g) is to cover the Judeo-Xtian God vs all other forms of gods, this is how I understood to deferentiate between all types of gods.

Which logical arguments?. Strong Christian have been taking these strong logical arguments and twisting as such as making assertions of... the creator does not need to live by the physics of the universe he created, nor does he/she/it can't be said to have used evolution as the natural course of development that the infinite creator made evolution so that a human would evolve.

I'm Godless BTW, many of my counterparts of theists remind me that the first three letters of my name is God, trying to motivate me in a way to manipulate my ideology that in order for me to have come up withs such a name I would had had first belief in god, as to my answers for such rhetoric I remind them that the last four letters is "Less" simple answer really, however some theists do make good arguments. :rolleyes:

The concept of "weak" or "strong" atheist is one I really don't follow, I'm an atheist period, I try not to redefine, nor add on my label, for example I got in this argument once of such a person who said he was a "Agnostic atheist" of which many people in my e-mail group attacked this person as contradicting himself, with such a label, either he was an "agnostic or an atheist" how the hell could he be both? as for the "weak" and "strong" atheist I'm pretty much was unaware of such concepts till I bought this computer. I suppose I can make an intelegent quess as the person in the "agnostic atheist" catogory was a "weak" atheist, as opposed to the "strong" atheist, who seems to think, that the God concept of the X-tian god, can be defeated by logical argument without any emperical evidence. However I don't adhire to such a concept, for one I would have to know what "god is", or of which god one is speaking of and there is no way that one can prove an idea such as "god" to be non-existent by the use of logic, (You & I) could probably come to terms but really try that explanation on a harcore theist!!, you will find real good argument and neither of you would ever come to terms by simply using logic, he will demand emperical evidence, such as any atheist would.
 
Re: Well said...

Originally posted by Godless
However I thought i made my self clear by speling "god" and "God" the difference in the "G"(g) is to cover the Judeo-Xtian God vs all other forms of gods, this is how I understood to deferentiate between all types of gods.
You stated, "This is why an atheist can't claim that god does not exist." Without an article ('a' or 'the'), this seems to imply a proper noun. I note that you didn't capitalize it, but many people do not capitalize when participating in electronic discussions. Your point is taken though.

Which logical arguments?
Some of the 'incompatible properties' arguments come to mind, such as the argument from evil and the argument from non-belief. I'm sure you can find many of them by googling around if you're interested.

Strong Christian have been taking these strong logical arguments and twisting as such as making assertions of... the creator does not need to live by the physics of the universe he created, nor does he/she/it can't be said to have used evolution as the natural course of development that the infinite creator made evolution so that a human would evolve.
True, but I'm sure we both know that those assertions are pure conjecture, and do not strengthen their positive assertion that God exists. The point is that it can be demonstrated that the idea of God is illogical in itself. I personally do not consider this to be conclusive proof, however.

The concept of "weak" or "strong" atheist is one I really don't follow, I'm an atheist period, I try not to redefine, nor add on my label
The difference between weak and strong atheism is the difference between not believing something is true and believing that it is false. A weak atheist simply lacks belief in the existence of God or gods, whereas a strong atheist as an explicit belief that God or gods do not exist.

I suspect that a majority of atheists are technically "weak atheists" since they simply have to reason to believe that God exists. Personally, I'm a strong atheist. However, if I were a "weak atheist", I would also simply refer to myself as an atheist; the 'weak' modifier tends to give the uneducated a false impression.

for example I got in this argument once of such a person who said he was a "Agnostic atheist" of which many people in my e-mail group attacked this person as contradicting himself, with such a label, either he was an "agnostic or an atheist" how the hell could he be both?
No contradiction at all. In fact, most atheists are also agnostic. Atheism involves the realm of belief. Agnosticism involves the realm of knowledge. One can believe something but not claim to have knowledge of it. For example, I believe that God doesn't exist, but I do not claim to have personal knowledge of this. That technically makes me an agnostic atheist. I suspect you would also fall under this category. A gnostic atheist (or theist) claims to have knowledge that God does not exist (or does).

I suppose I can make an intelegent quess as the person in the "agnostic atheist" catogory was a "weak" atheist
This is often the case, but not always. Take me, an agnostic strong atheist, for example.

as opposed to the "strong" atheist, who seems to think, that the God concept of the X-tian god, can be defeated by logical argument without any emperical evidence.
Again, this is often the case, but not always. A strong atheist may simply believe that God doesn't exist (along with unicorns, leprechauns, and fairies) because there is no evidence to indicate that he does.

he will demand empirical evidence, such as any atheist would.
This is why even most strong atheists will not claim to have personal knowledge that God does not exist: because conclusive emperical evidence is unavailable to back the assertion that God does not exist.
 
Re: Gravage.

Originally posted by Godless
An atheist you are, if you claim to be. Though you are young, you are equiping yourself with education in order to defend your ideals, this is very commandable at such a young age. Most kids your age are either singing blindlessly hims at church or getting in trouble with drugs, and teenage pregnancy.

However no man can claim outright that "god does not exist" that's not what atheism is about, atheism is "without belief". Atheism is the willfull rejection of "belief" in god, God, gods, devils, satans, etc. The atheist can't prove that these mystical entities don't exist, it's not our job, atheist don't claim knowledge of the unknown, however we do accert, that if an individual claims knowledge of god, that he/she/or they present emperical evidence, needless to say this has not been done, hence what follows is that the burden of proof is upon the claimant of such entities not the atheist. This is why an atheist can't claim that god does not exist, we would have to prove it, with emperical evidence and as of yet, this has not been done either.

I don't understand why it isn't allowed to simply prove God's non-existence,if theists say he is immaterial.
Immaterial means non-existent.If He created the nature,than he doesn't exist,since He lives outside the nature(nature=existence).Do you know what means soul."Soul" actually comes from word which is translated as "mind".
Have you ever watched "Brain story".Belief in God is an illusion.Primitive people's beliefs in supernatural have been used by Church.Church has manipulated other people so much...
Also,why this being's name has to be "God",what if this being's name is different?
Ever question that?
Luigi Cascioli gave us enough.irrefutable proof that Jesus didn't exist,that it was all just manipulation over centuries,to manipulate human lifes...
Nature is cause to itself.
It didn't need so-called Creator.
 
I myself have a similar question and id really appreciate it if a Christian answered it. If God is spiritual and doesnt exist in reality, then how did he make men in his own image? And if iam wrong and he made me in in his own image concerning his mind. Iam i wrong to say that, that would meant that "god" makes sins and is a human person? Why did God wanted to make men in his own image? What did he wanted to proove, because most christians say that "god" is invisible......
 
Doctor Theodore Schultz jr. wrote:

No one can prove an unrestricted negative" is the reply usually given to those who claim that science can prove that God does not exist. An unrestricted negative is a claim to the effect that something doesn't exist anywhere. Since no one can exhaustively examine every place in the universe, the reply goes, no one can conclusively establish the non-existence of anything.
The principle that no one can prove an unrestricted negative, however, is itself an unrestricted negative. It says, in effect, that there are no proofs of unrestricted negatives. But, if there are no proofs of unrestricted negatives, then no one can prove that no one can prove an unrestricted negative. And if no one can prove that no one can prove an unrestricted negative, then it must be logically possible to prove an unrestricted negative. So the claim that no one can prove a universal negative is self-refuting-if it's true, it's false. What I intend to show here is not only that unrestricted negatives can be proven, but that a number of them have been proven.

Parmenides realized over 2,500 years ago that anything that involves a logical contradiction cannot exist. We know that there are no married bachelors, no square circles, and no largest number because these notions are self-contradictory. They violate the most fundamental law of logic-the law of noncontradiction-which says that nothing can both have a property and lack it at the same time. So one way to prove a universal negative is to show that the notion of a thing is inconsistent.

To prove that God does not exist, then, one only has to demonstrate that the concept of God is inconsistent. Traditional theism defines God as a supreme being-a being than which none greater can be conceived, as St. Anselm would have it. We know, however, that there is no supreme number because such a notion involves a logical contradiction. Every number is such that the number 1 can be added to it. If there were a supreme number, it would be such that the number 1 can and cannot be added to it, and that's impossible. Many believe that the notion of a supreme being is just as incoherent as the notion of a supreme number.

Consider, for example, the claim that god is all-good and thus both perfectly merciful and perfectly just. If he is perfectly just, he makes sure that everyone gets exactly what's coming to them. If he is perfectly merciful, he let's everyone off. But he can't do both. So the notion of a supreme being may be internally inconsistent.

This is just one of many inconsistencies that have been found in the traditional concept of God. For a more complete review of them, see Theodore Drange, "Incompatible-Properties Arguments: A Survey" in Philo (Fall/Winter 1998). Theists, of course, will claim that, properly understood, there is no contradiction. What if they're right? What if it's logically possible for the God of traditional theism to exist? Does that mean that one cannot prove that he does not exist? No, for in order to prove that something does not exist, one need not show that it is logically impossible. One need only show is that it is epistemically unnecessary-that it is not required to explain anything. Science has proven the non-existence of many things in this way, such as phlogiston, the luminiferous ether, and the planet Vulcan. Scientific proofs, unlike logical proofs, do not establish their conclusions beyond any possibility of doubt. But they are proofs nonetheless, for they establish their conclusions beyond a reasonable doubt and that is all that is needed to justify them.

Phlogiston, the luminiferous ether, and the planet Vulcan are theoretical entities that were postulated in order to explain various phenomena. Phlogiston was postulated to explain heat, the luminiferous ether was postulated to explain the propagation of light waves through empty space, and Vulcan was postulated to explain the perturbations in the orbit of Mercury. Science has shown, however, that these phenomena can be explained without invoking these entities. By demonstrating that these entities are not needed to explain anything, science has proven that they do not exist.

God is a theoretical entity that is postulated by theists to explain various phenomena, such as the origin of the universe, the design of the universe, and the origin of living things. Modern science, however, can explain all of these phenomena without postulating the existence of God.1 In the words of Laplace, science has no need of that hypothesis.2 By demonstrating that God is not needed to explain anything, science has proven that there is no more reason to believe in the existence of God than to believe in the existence of phlogiston, the luminiferous ether, or Vulcan. This may explain why more than 90% of the world's top scientists disbelieve or doubt the existence of God.3

Scientists prefer natural explanations to supernatural ones, not because of any metaphysical bias on their part, but because natural explanations produce more understanding than supernatural ones. As Plato realized, to say that God did it is not to explain anything, but simply to offer an excuse for not having an explanation.4

The goodness of an explanation is determined by how much understanding it produces, and the amount of understanding produced by an explanation is determined by how well it systematizes and unifies our knowledge. The extent to which an explanation systematizes and unifies our knowledge can be measured by various criteria of adequacy such as simplicity (the number of assumptions made), scope (the types of phenomena explained), conservatism (fit with existing theory), and fruitfulness (ability to make successful novel predictions).

Supernatural explanations are inherently inferior to natural ones because they do not meet the criteria of adequacy as well. For example, they are usually less simple because they assume the existence of at least one additional type of entity. They usually have less scope because they don't explain how the phenomena in question are produced and thus they raise more questions than they answer. They are usually less conservative because they imply that certain natural laws have been violated. And they are usually less fruitful because they don't make any novel predictions. That is why scientists avoid them.

The realization that the traditional God of theism is not needed to explain anything-that there is nothing for him to do-has led a number of theologians to call for the rejection of this notion of god. In Why Believe in God? Michael Donald Goulder argues that the only intellectually respectable position on the god question is atheism.5 In Why Christianity Must Change or Die, Reverend Spong, former Episcopal Bishop of New Jersey, argues that the traditional theistic conception of God must be replaced by one grounded in human relationships and concerns.6 Both agree with Stephen J. Gould that religion should not be in the business of trying to explain the world.7

What if there was no plausible natural explanation for some phenomena? Would that justify the claim that god caused it? No, for our inability to provide a natural explanation may simply be due to our ignorance of the operative natural forces. Many phenomena that were once attributed to supernatural beings such as earthquakes, volcanoes, and disease can now be explained in purely natural terms. As St. Augustine realized, apparent miracles are not contrary to nature but contrary to our knowledge of nature.8

Given the inherent inferiority of supernatural explanations and the incompleteness of our knowledge, theists would be justified in offering a supernatural explanation for a phenomenon only if they could prove that it is in principle impossible to provide a natural explanation of it. In other words, to undermine the scientific proof for the non-existence of god, theists have to prove an unrestricted negative, namely, that no natural explanation of a phenomenon will be found. And that, I believe, is an unrestricted negative that no theist will ever be able to prove.
 
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