Athiests
- Thread starter Angelus
- Start date
Any time. It's refreshing to meet a christian in one of these debates who has taken a look at all the facts and doesn't just arbitrarily dismiss the opinions of the "opposition". Often christians aren't as open minded.See, cant we all just get along? Group hug! *forum goers flee in all directions*
hehehe
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Cris wrote:
To any intelligent student it does not take long to tell whether a teacher is teaching anything. If a teacher cannot answer direct questions and is evasive then the teacher soon loses respect and students.
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What if the teacher gives clear answers that the student cannot or will not understand? Then does the teacher still deserve the disrespect? Is the validity of a teacher's knowledge completely based on his students perceptions?
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Cris wrote:
It is easier than dealing with reality, since you have an outlet –
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No Cris, I have an inlet... namely God's love.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
God will guide me, God will not let me down, etc. etc.
==============================================
So true.
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Cris wrote:
Phrases I have heard so many times from xtians. When the going gets tough you will pray for help and hope it arrives. I.e. a dependence on a fantasy rather than working harder to solve your own problems.
==============================================
Like being buried under a wall of concrete? If that happens to me, and I am pinned helplessly there bleeding with my legs crushed, I should "work harder to solve my own problem"? Your pie-in-the-sky atheism runs contrary to reason in this regard. God forbid, no wait... uh.. okay... Nietzsche forbid someday you find yourself in a place where you are alone against the universe. You are at the end of your tether with nowhere to turn. You are helpless and on the cusp of destruction. It is here that many cry out for God's help, or at least comfort in this time of despair. YOU will instead be clenching those pearly whites together, waiting for "the last ride". And what a hell of a ride it is. Cuz down here in this pain-ravaged world, the atheist is on their own.
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Cris wrote:
I’m talking about the struggle for human survival not about following a set of rules to please an imaginary god.
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Do you like pleasing your Earthly Father?
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Cris wrote:
It is easy to believe in a fantasy than to search for reality.
==============================================
So I must be some wierd functionally-insane oddball. Is that it?
==============================================
Cris wrote:
Your perceived struggle is a constant trial trying to resolve ancient contradictory mythology with the real world.
==============================================
Greek mythology vis a vis Christian theology: compare and contrast. If you can't tell the difference between cultural folk-myths and religious theology... I can't help you.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
In the end your desire is to die and be with your god – that is in essence giving up everything. The real effort is the struggle to survive when times are hard.
==============================================
What an inane statement. How shallow. If my "desire" was to die, I would have taken the carbon monoxide escalator-to-heaven long ago. You want a "real effort". How about Mother Theresa? She really lived a life of ease didn't she? Also, just for interests sake, read 2 Corinthians 6:3-13, and learn about Paul's luxurious care free life as a Christian.
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Cris wrote:
And xtianity provides what solutions? It doesn’t.
==============================================
You mean worthless things like:
"Love your neighbor as yourself" (Galatians 5:14)
"Love your enemies" (Luke 6:35)
"Let us not become weary in doing good..." (Galatians 6:9)
"Do not take revenge..." (Romans 12:19)
"He who is kind to the poor lends to the Lord , and he will reward him for what he has done." (Proverbs 19:17)
"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21)
"Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor." (Romans 13:7)
I could go on and on (but I won't). The point is, how dare you claim that the Christian life has no value and offers no solutions to life.
Christianity brought civilization where before was savagery.
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Cris wrote:
It teaches that those dying will find a better life in heaven.
==============================================
It takes more than dying to get to Heaven.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
It is science that solves problems, it is science that cures diseases, and it is science that helps prevent diseases.
==============================================
Are there any atheist hospitals in Zimbabwe? Name one atheism-based charitable organization.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
Xtians merely pray and hope, i.e. things of no practical value.
==============================================
In the case of a level 5 tornado, or plummeting to your death, or maybe an inoperable brain-tumor what would you suggest instead?
==============================================
Cris wrote:
The evil is the teaching that life is temporary...
==============================================
Do you have scientific evidence that I am not aware of that life is NOT temporary?
==============================================
Cris wrote:
...and that real life begins after death.
==============================================
Not for everyone.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
The effect is to cheapen life...
==============================================
Cheapen life? Read Colossians 1:10.
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Cris wrote:
...and to give hope that the struggle in this life will soon be over and that paradise is waiting.
==============================================
Yeah, that is a terrible notion.
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Cris wrote:
Instead, if people were taught that death is the end then IMHO they would make a greater effort to preserve life and the thought of risking one’s life in a war would be unthinkable.
==============================================
Sorry, that isn't how survival of the fittest works.
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Cris wrote:
All significant religions teach an afterlife, all such religions give such false hopes. Xtianity is the worst offender because it deliberately and very actively attempts to convert others to its unfounded ideas, and present them to the gullible as truth.
==============================================
Boy you must think I'm pretty stupid.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
Do you deny that xtianity portrays every man as sinful and that he must die? This is the primary teaching of xtianity: The entire reason why he must be saved and the entire reason for the need of a savior.
==============================================
I will not waste my time explaining something that children in Sunday school learn at the 1st grade level. I thought you were some kind of Uber-Theologian. Why the inaccurate summation of basic Christian theology then?
==============================================
Cris wrote:
The fundamental essence of xtianity is the teaching that man is bad and must be saved. The entire conversion process rests on convincing others that they are inherently bad and corrupt and hence they need to be saved.
==============================================
Go visit a prison. You will find out about the evil that man can do. Heck, forget that, check out how people act when they drive.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
It looks more like you have missed the entire point of xtianity.
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Ha ha ha... good one.
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Cris wrote:
As a humanist I see man as inherently good and capable of solving his own problems through knowledge and understanding of the universe. I.e. I encourage and look for the positive.
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How sweet. In a perfect world that might be so. But this isn't a perfect world.
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Cris wrote:
Xtianity says you are bad so repent you sinner or suffer eternal torture. Very positive huh?
==============================================
It is positive if it keeps their eternal soul from everlasting torment. Can you name a better gift than salvation from eternal torment?
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Cris wrote:
What I teach can be shown through objective proofs independent of any experience I might have. ==============================================
Same here. You say the Bible says one thing when it clearly and objectively does NOT.
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Cris wrote:
I never have a need to sound condescending.
==============================================
Just inane ("Christianity is the worst evil of them all").
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Cris wrote:
You on the other hand have no objective proofs to offer. You have no choice but to resort to condescension.
==============================================
Do you know what my last resort really is? I cease and desist. I won't brow beat you. I just speak my points (sometimes passionately) and move on. Once I have said all I can, I stop. Then it's up to us to accept or reject whatever we have said. And we are quite free to do so. I can't force you and you can't force me to believe anything. Praise God for that!!
==============================================
Cris wrote:
Show me an objective proof for the existence of your god then you can rightly say you are not believing in fantasy.
==============================================
Better yet, show me an objective truth that he doesn't. After all you have more to lose than I do.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
Until you can do that there is no way to distinguish your beliefs from fantasies and dreams.
==============================================
My dreams involve crazy random events like taking a gondola through the mall. My fantasies include meeting and being pals with Bruce Springsteen, or being married to Angie Harmon, Jennifer Connoly, or maybe Winona Ryder.
Whereas my beliefs include a strong desire to live for Jesus Christ, despite my unworthiness of his love.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
When a fantasy can be easily recognized there seems little point examining further details when one is looking for reality.
==============================================
Okay.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
Any scrap of evidence for the basic claims that xtianity had any substance would have ensured my continued interest.
==============================================
Oh well excuse me. Hey, I thought you were never condescending.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
...you paint yourself in far too high esteem. Two thirds of the world is not xtian, and many who claim to be xtian hold those beliefs only out of tradition or upbringing. Truly devout xtians are definitely in a minority in the world.
==============================================
So what? Would it make a difference to you if two thirds of the world WERE Christians?
==============================================
Cris wrote:
[Do I believe Christianity is a] Scourge? No, just irrelevant.
==============================================
So irrelevant that you have written 2600 + posts debating about it.
-Mike
Cris wrote:
To any intelligent student it does not take long to tell whether a teacher is teaching anything. If a teacher cannot answer direct questions and is evasive then the teacher soon loses respect and students.
==============================================
What if the teacher gives clear answers that the student cannot or will not understand? Then does the teacher still deserve the disrespect? Is the validity of a teacher's knowledge completely based on his students perceptions?
==============================================
Cris wrote:
It is easier than dealing with reality, since you have an outlet –
==============================================
No Cris, I have an inlet... namely God's love.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
God will guide me, God will not let me down, etc. etc.
==============================================
So true.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
Phrases I have heard so many times from xtians. When the going gets tough you will pray for help and hope it arrives. I.e. a dependence on a fantasy rather than working harder to solve your own problems.
==============================================
Like being buried under a wall of concrete? If that happens to me, and I am pinned helplessly there bleeding with my legs crushed, I should "work harder to solve my own problem"? Your pie-in-the-sky atheism runs contrary to reason in this regard. God forbid, no wait... uh.. okay... Nietzsche forbid someday you find yourself in a place where you are alone against the universe. You are at the end of your tether with nowhere to turn. You are helpless and on the cusp of destruction. It is here that many cry out for God's help, or at least comfort in this time of despair. YOU will instead be clenching those pearly whites together, waiting for "the last ride". And what a hell of a ride it is. Cuz down here in this pain-ravaged world, the atheist is on their own.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
I’m talking about the struggle for human survival not about following a set of rules to please an imaginary god.
==============================================
Do you like pleasing your Earthly Father?
==============================================
Cris wrote:
It is easy to believe in a fantasy than to search for reality.
==============================================
So I must be some wierd functionally-insane oddball. Is that it?
==============================================
Cris wrote:
Your perceived struggle is a constant trial trying to resolve ancient contradictory mythology with the real world.
==============================================
Greek mythology vis a vis Christian theology: compare and contrast. If you can't tell the difference between cultural folk-myths and religious theology... I can't help you.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
In the end your desire is to die and be with your god – that is in essence giving up everything. The real effort is the struggle to survive when times are hard.
==============================================
What an inane statement. How shallow. If my "desire" was to die, I would have taken the carbon monoxide escalator-to-heaven long ago. You want a "real effort". How about Mother Theresa? She really lived a life of ease didn't she? Also, just for interests sake, read 2 Corinthians 6:3-13, and learn about Paul's luxurious care free life as a Christian.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
And xtianity provides what solutions? It doesn’t.
==============================================
You mean worthless things like:
"Love your neighbor as yourself" (Galatians 5:14)
"Love your enemies" (Luke 6:35)
"Let us not become weary in doing good..." (Galatians 6:9)
"Do not take revenge..." (Romans 12:19)
"He who is kind to the poor lends to the Lord , and he will reward him for what he has done." (Proverbs 19:17)
"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21)
"Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor." (Romans 13:7)
I could go on and on (but I won't). The point is, how dare you claim that the Christian life has no value and offers no solutions to life.
Christianity brought civilization where before was savagery.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
It teaches that those dying will find a better life in heaven.
==============================================
It takes more than dying to get to Heaven.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
It is science that solves problems, it is science that cures diseases, and it is science that helps prevent diseases.
==============================================
Are there any atheist hospitals in Zimbabwe? Name one atheism-based charitable organization.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
Xtians merely pray and hope, i.e. things of no practical value.
==============================================
In the case of a level 5 tornado, or plummeting to your death, or maybe an inoperable brain-tumor what would you suggest instead?
==============================================
Cris wrote:
The evil is the teaching that life is temporary...
==============================================
Do you have scientific evidence that I am not aware of that life is NOT temporary?
==============================================
Cris wrote:
...and that real life begins after death.
==============================================
Not for everyone.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
The effect is to cheapen life...
==============================================
Cheapen life? Read Colossians 1:10.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
...and to give hope that the struggle in this life will soon be over and that paradise is waiting.
==============================================
Yeah, that is a terrible notion.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
Instead, if people were taught that death is the end then IMHO they would make a greater effort to preserve life and the thought of risking one’s life in a war would be unthinkable.
==============================================
Sorry, that isn't how survival of the fittest works.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
All significant religions teach an afterlife, all such religions give such false hopes. Xtianity is the worst offender because it deliberately and very actively attempts to convert others to its unfounded ideas, and present them to the gullible as truth.
==============================================
Boy you must think I'm pretty stupid.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
Do you deny that xtianity portrays every man as sinful and that he must die? This is the primary teaching of xtianity: The entire reason why he must be saved and the entire reason for the need of a savior.
==============================================
I will not waste my time explaining something that children in Sunday school learn at the 1st grade level. I thought you were some kind of Uber-Theologian. Why the inaccurate summation of basic Christian theology then?
==============================================
Cris wrote:
The fundamental essence of xtianity is the teaching that man is bad and must be saved. The entire conversion process rests on convincing others that they are inherently bad and corrupt and hence they need to be saved.
==============================================
Go visit a prison. You will find out about the evil that man can do. Heck, forget that, check out how people act when they drive.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
It looks more like you have missed the entire point of xtianity.
==============================================
Ha ha ha... good one.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
As a humanist I see man as inherently good and capable of solving his own problems through knowledge and understanding of the universe. I.e. I encourage and look for the positive.
==============================================
How sweet. In a perfect world that might be so. But this isn't a perfect world.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
Xtianity says you are bad so repent you sinner or suffer eternal torture. Very positive huh?
==============================================
It is positive if it keeps their eternal soul from everlasting torment. Can you name a better gift than salvation from eternal torment?
==============================================
Cris wrote:
What I teach can be shown through objective proofs independent of any experience I might have. ==============================================
Same here. You say the Bible says one thing when it clearly and objectively does NOT.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
I never have a need to sound condescending.
==============================================
Just inane ("Christianity is the worst evil of them all").
==============================================
Cris wrote:
You on the other hand have no objective proofs to offer. You have no choice but to resort to condescension.
==============================================
Do you know what my last resort really is? I cease and desist. I won't brow beat you. I just speak my points (sometimes passionately) and move on. Once I have said all I can, I stop. Then it's up to us to accept or reject whatever we have said. And we are quite free to do so. I can't force you and you can't force me to believe anything. Praise God for that!!
==============================================
Cris wrote:
Show me an objective proof for the existence of your god then you can rightly say you are not believing in fantasy.
==============================================
Better yet, show me an objective truth that he doesn't. After all you have more to lose than I do.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
Until you can do that there is no way to distinguish your beliefs from fantasies and dreams.
==============================================
My dreams involve crazy random events like taking a gondola through the mall. My fantasies include meeting and being pals with Bruce Springsteen, or being married to Angie Harmon, Jennifer Connoly, or maybe Winona Ryder.
Whereas my beliefs include a strong desire to live for Jesus Christ, despite my unworthiness of his love.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
When a fantasy can be easily recognized there seems little point examining further details when one is looking for reality.
==============================================
Okay.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
Any scrap of evidence for the basic claims that xtianity had any substance would have ensured my continued interest.
==============================================
Oh well excuse me. Hey, I thought you were never condescending.
==============================================
Cris wrote:
...you paint yourself in far too high esteem. Two thirds of the world is not xtian, and many who claim to be xtian hold those beliefs only out of tradition or upbringing. Truly devout xtians are definitely in a minority in the world.
==============================================
So what? Would it make a difference to you if two thirds of the world WERE Christians?
==============================================
Cris wrote:
[Do I believe Christianity is a] Scourge? No, just irrelevant.
==============================================
So irrelevant that you have written 2600 + posts debating about it.
-Mike
Ekim,
The possession of knowledge and the ability to teach are two distinct issues. You are a bible scholar; but effectively teaching others what you know is a separate skill that I do not believe you posses.
It is not that I cannot understand you or that I am unable but that I don’t see any need. Before reading any reference material one would first normally identify a desire or a need to absorb such information. In this case: Whether adopting a religion is needed such that one would be motivated to read the official guide. From my perspective I see no need for religion. To encourage me to have an interest in the bible you would first need to convince me that religion is needed. Following that you would need to convince me that your particular selection has greater value than any other choice.
Moving on: Much of your post contained somewhat trivial innuendos and out of context quotes, which I will ignore, and are really not worthy of your talents.
We are not communicating here. You have not grasped my point, sorry, I’ll try again.
But be sure that I have never called out to an imaginary supernatural in times of desperation. I am and always will be looking for a reasoned solution right up until the moment I die. And to some extent that reflects the point I am making, but more on the scale of humanity.
Perhaps my point is too subtle. All the time that people hold a belief that their fate is in the hands of a supernatural entity, or that their material life is just transitory, then they will tend to not make the extra effort to seek more permanent solutions. The cumulative effect of billions of people over time following the same attitude will have certainly meant many lost opportunities for human progress. If that is combined with the past transgressions of the Church in actively discouraging scientific research, then we can see that human progress has been very probably severely inhibited by the presence of religious beliefs. This is what I find offensive about religions.
But I have met Xtians who when faced with difficult choices do indeed give up and state that they are in God’s hands and that he will guide them. They then simply do nothing and wait for events to unfold. Their primary effort is to pray.
I know what you intended but Mother Theresa is a poor example.
Like I say, what we need are real practical solutions to world problems, not prayer and preaching.
But my point was aimed at the larger scale as I described earlier.
But you miss the point about atheism again. Atheism hasn’t been an institution, or an organization comparable to religions. It is simply a disbelief in theist claims, trying to criticize it for not doing something is meaningless.
Xtians believe they are eternal or can become eternal. Didn’t the alleged Jesus allegedly say “believe in me and you shall have everlasting life”? Isn’t this the real goal of every xtian, to live forever?
I.e. The essence of xtian evangelism rests on convincing people that they are bad and need saving. This is essentially a negative activity and why I say xtianity is ultimately negative. It encourage people to think badly of themselves so they are forced to consider a higher power who is perfect and worthy of worship. It’s a sales job.
And why have I the most to lose? If your god does not exist and you have placed all your hopes of survival on your belief then when you die you will cease to exist. On the other hand I am actively working on technology that will improve and extend life and if I die then my insurance covers the cost of the cryogenic preservation of my brain before it decays. If technology of the future can revive me I will survive. You will remain dead.
If on the other hand a god does exist then I trust such intelligence would also be just and will judge me accordingly. Either that or I will continue my debate with him/her.
From Webster:
the free play of creative imagination, or
a creation of the imaginative faculty whether expressed or merely conceived: as a : a fanciful design or invention, or
the power or process of creating especially unrealistic or improbable mental images in response to psychological need.
Ekim, these posts are long, I’ve spent the evening on this one and I suspect you spent some time on yours. Have we wasted our time? I’m not really under any illusion that I will change your mind as I suspect you must by now be convinced you stand no chance of changing mine. I enjoy the jousting, but we could be doing other things.
Take care whatever you believe.
Cris
A teacher’s respect is earned based on the success of the teaching and not on what the teacher knows. If the student will not or cannot understand then the teacher must adopt more creative approaches. I have taught and lectured frequently in many countries during the past 20 years and I have designed industrial level training courses. The challenge of portraying complex issues to others who may not be ready is certainly not simple.
The possession of knowledge and the ability to teach are two distinct issues. You are a bible scholar; but effectively teaching others what you know is a separate skill that I do not believe you posses.
It is not that I cannot understand you or that I am unable but that I don’t see any need. Before reading any reference material one would first normally identify a desire or a need to absorb such information. In this case: Whether adopting a religion is needed such that one would be motivated to read the official guide. From my perspective I see no need for religion. To encourage me to have an interest in the bible you would first need to convince me that religion is needed. Following that you would need to convince me that your particular selection has greater value than any other choice.
Moving on: Much of your post contained somewhat trivial innuendos and out of context quotes, which I will ignore, and are really not worthy of your talents.
I’ve listed the entire quote because it was difficult to summarize it.
We are not communicating here. You have not grasped my point, sorry, I’ll try again.
But be sure that I have never called out to an imaginary supernatural in times of desperation. I am and always will be looking for a reasoned solution right up until the moment I die. And to some extent that reflects the point I am making, but more on the scale of humanity.
Perhaps my point is too subtle. All the time that people hold a belief that their fate is in the hands of a supernatural entity, or that their material life is just transitory, then they will tend to not make the extra effort to seek more permanent solutions. The cumulative effect of billions of people over time following the same attitude will have certainly meant many lost opportunities for human progress. If that is combined with the past transgressions of the Church in actively discouraging scientific research, then we can see that human progress has been very probably severely inhibited by the presence of religious beliefs. This is what I find offensive about religions.
But I have met Xtians who when faced with difficult choices do indeed give up and state that they are in God’s hands and that he will guide them. They then simply do nothing and wait for events to unfold. Their primary effort is to pray.
Suicide is against your rules, but many have killed themselves in a desire to be with their god.
I know what you intended but Mother Theresa is a poor example.
Sounds like she is a cause of much suffering.
Like I say, what we need are real practical solutions to world problems, not prayer and preaching.
But my point was aimed at the larger scale as I described earlier.
Apart from the reference to ‘the Lord” we have all things regardless of Xtianity, and none depend on the supernatural.
And if Xtianity hadn’t existed perhaps we would have had something far more effective where people looked more to themselves for solutions rather than hope for non-existent supernatural interventions.
Try the international Red Cross. It is entirely secular.
But you miss the point about atheism again. Atheism hasn’t been an institution, or an organization comparable to religions. It is simply a disbelief in theist claims, trying to criticize it for not doing something is meaningless.
If billions of people had not given up so easily then over time we may well have had solutions for all of these things now.
No none. All evidence points to life being very temporary. So what’s your point?
Xtians believe they are eternal or can become eternal. Didn’t the alleged Jesus allegedly say “believe in me and you shall have everlasting life”? Isn’t this the real goal of every xtian, to live forever?
Here is a longer version then –
The key to xtian evangelism rests on convincing potential converts that they are sinful, see 1 thru 8. That they have inherited Adam’s sinful nature. I took this from a xtian children’s web site last year sometime and it has been discussed in these forums before. Sorry, I didn’t keep the link.
I.e. The essence of xtian evangelism rests on convincing people that they are bad and need saving. This is essentially a negative activity and why I say xtianity is ultimately negative. It encourage people to think badly of themselves so they are forced to consider a higher power who is perfect and worthy of worship. It’s a sales job.
And if xtianity hadn’t spent centuries teaching people that they are wicked and must be saved then perhaps more people would not think so little of themselves and we’d have a safer society.
No I agree, and the sooner we can rid ourselves of xtianity then the sooner we can start our recovery.
The question is meaningless until you can show such things as souls and eternal torment are real.
Uh but the exercise is pointless since fantasies are imaginary. However, try this – 24 inches from your face is an invisible and immaterial crystalline dodecahedron that possesses unimaginable power and was responsible for the creation of the universe. Prove to me that this crystal does not exist and I will prove to you that your god does not exist.
And why have I the most to lose? If your god does not exist and you have placed all your hopes of survival on your belief then when you die you will cease to exist. On the other hand I am actively working on technology that will improve and extend life and if I die then my insurance covers the cost of the cryogenic preservation of my brain before it decays. If technology of the future can revive me I will survive. You will remain dead.
If on the other hand a god does exist then I trust such intelligence would also be just and will judge me accordingly. Either that or I will continue my debate with him/her.
Correct if I am wrong but I don’t think I have ever accused anyone of fantasizing about a god, my point is that the concept of a god is a fantasy. Hmmm, too subtle. I’ll try again - In the absence of evidence that an object is real then the belief that the object is real is a fantasy –
From Webster:
the free play of creative imagination, or
a creation of the imaginative faculty whether expressed or merely conceived: as a : a fanciful design or invention, or
the power or process of creating especially unrealistic or improbable mental images in response to psychological need.
Yes, you are right, and I guess that is why my message count has been dropping off recently. You and your fellow xtians have had a profound effect on me these past 2.5 years at sciforums. Where I might have had some minor doubts when I began in Jan 2000, your posts and posts like yours have encouraged me to focus and do far more research than I would have done otherwise. It has been fun and I am thankful that I no longer have any doubts about the irrelevance of xtianity. It is perhaps time for me to spend more time in other forums looking at more useful interests.
Ekim, these posts are long, I’ve spent the evening on this one and I suspect you spent some time on yours. Have we wasted our time? I’m not really under any illusion that I will change your mind as I suspect you must by now be convinced you stand no chance of changing mine. I enjoy the jousting, but we could be doing other things.
Take care whatever you believe.
Cris
~The_Chosen~
Registered Senior Member
True, I'm not arguing terminology at all. It is laborious and useless to do so.
But what interests me is what you have stated.
Most atheists don’t know the answers, they don’t know they are right, and most are still searching.
I think most atheists are confident that God existing is sempiternally small. Why would they "search"? :bugeye:
It just sounds more like a weak-agnostic to me.
Chosen,
Sorry, I didn't mean that atheists are searching for a god but rather answers to the universe and everything. The concept of a god is only one idea and atheists find that proposal unnacceptable.
The search will be for alternatives to supernatural claims. And science offers probably thr best method for finding real answers.
Does that help?
Cris
Ah I see your confusion.
Sorry, I didn't mean that atheists are searching for a god but rather answers to the universe and everything. The concept of a god is only one idea and atheists find that proposal unnacceptable.
The search will be for alternatives to supernatural claims. And science offers probably thr best method for finding real answers.
Does that help?
Cris
Hate to burst your bubble, Ekim (oh no, wait, I can't, it's [Shoddy-]God[dy] reinforced!), but <i>inlet</i> is only meant for use as a geographical term, whereas outlet is the right word here.
Typical Ekimclass (a class of society I have nicknamed Ekimclass, generally very religious and a lot of other things as well) behaviour, using a word wrong because it sounds like it came from two roots that don't satisfy the meaning you want it to have...
Typical Ekimclass (a class of society I have nicknamed Ekimclass, generally very religious and a lot of other things as well) behaviour, using a word wrong because it sounds like it came from two roots that don't satisfy the meaning you want it to have...
Originally posted by GB-GIL Trans-global
Hate to burst your bubble, Ekim (oh no, wait, I can't, it's [Shoddy-]God[dy] reinforced!), but <i>inlet</i> is only meant for use as a geographical term, whereas outlet is the right word here.
Typical Ekimclass (a class of society I have nicknamed Ekimclass, generally very religious and a lot of other things as well) behaviour, using a word wrong because it sounds like it came from two roots that don't satisfy the meaning you want it to have...
Despite the fact that my use of "inlet" was a PUN, and because I confused select atheists with a percieved grammatical faux paux, I am now furiously lashing my back and shoulders into ribbons with a cat-of-nine-tails!
Hey I have an entire class of society named after me? Wow!!
-Mike
Cris,
Of course, I personally believe that you made several errors in your reply to me. But responding at this stage would be repeating myself and a case of wheel-spinning. Therefore I will humbly bow out of this discussion with a courteous "Thank you", and leave the chips laying where they are. To coin a phrase, "we'll agree to disagree".
However, as usual, thanks for the lively debate. I think we both came out with our respective faiths intact.
And Cris, don't don't forget, we are attempting to convince the unconvinced, not vice versa.
Until next time...
-Mike
Of course, I personally believe that you made several errors in your reply to me. But responding at this stage would be repeating myself and a case of wheel-spinning. Therefore I will humbly bow out of this discussion with a courteous "Thank you", and leave the chips laying where they are. To coin a phrase, "we'll agree to disagree".
However, as usual, thanks for the lively debate. I think we both came out with our respective faiths intact.
And Cris, don't don't forget, we are attempting to convince the unconvinced, not vice versa.
Until next time...
-Mike
Such are the dangers of literalism
But such is the frustration of dealing with literalism. Myself, I'm starting to wonder if writing for Sciforums is a good exercise in writing.
I will say, though, that GB-GIL's interpretation would be the common one to my experience when amid my atheist phase. It's one of the communication difficulties that convinced me to leave atheism as a specific idea at the rubbish tip alongside other puerile pseudo-intellectualisms.
Maybe I'll bother to re-hash that story for this topic; it seems to confuse atheists and Christians alike. Of other religious ideas, though, I've met considerably fewer people who have difficulties understanding the tale.
In the meantime, consider that phenomenon whereby some Christians (and, strangely, atheists alike) have difficulty conceiving of the word "god" meaning anything but IHVH or Jesus.
Well, now you're apparently not even allowed a cute (perhaps even cheesy) turn of phrase because such is what happens when people insist on "literalism" according to their own paradigm.
Tragic, that.
thanx,
Tiassa
Well, Mike, that'll learn ya ...
But such is the frustration of dealing with literalism. Myself, I'm starting to wonder if writing for Sciforums is a good exercise in writing.
I will say, though, that GB-GIL's interpretation would be the common one to my experience when amid my atheist phase. It's one of the communication difficulties that convinced me to leave atheism as a specific idea at the rubbish tip alongside other puerile pseudo-intellectualisms.
Maybe I'll bother to re-hash that story for this topic; it seems to confuse atheists and Christians alike. Of other religious ideas, though, I've met considerably fewer people who have difficulties understanding the tale.
In the meantime, consider that phenomenon whereby some Christians (and, strangely, atheists alike) have difficulty conceiving of the word "god" meaning anything but IHVH or Jesus.
Well, now you're apparently not even allowed a cute (perhaps even cheesy) turn of phrase because such is what happens when people insist on "literalism" according to their own paradigm.
Tragic, that.
thanx,
Tiassa
A better response than I expected
Avatar
I only pause to comment on your response because I had, frankly, some expectation of people saying, What? Who does that?
Thus, your apparent affirmation that the phenomenon exists eases my mind and is, perhaps, more important than you had intended.
thank you,
Tiassa
Avatar
I only pause to comment on your response because I had, frankly, some expectation of people saying, What? Who does that?
Thus, your apparent affirmation that the phenomenon exists eases my mind and is, perhaps, more important than you had intended.
thank you,
Tiassa
Ekimlaw...
Well thanks for not jumping on my conscience, most people do, when it comes to Ayn Rand, atheists, and theists alike.
Yes Ayn Rand was an atheist, Quote: *Every argument for god every attribute ascribed to "him" rests on a false metaphisical premise. None can survive for a moment on a correct metaphysics.
Existence exists, and only existence exists. Existence is a primary: it is uncreated, indestructible, eternal. So if you are to postulate something beyond existence--some supernatural realm--you must do it by openly denying reason, dispencing with definitions, proofs, arguments, and saying flatly, " To Hell with argument, I have faith." That, of course, is a willful rejection of reason.
Objectivism advocates reason as man's sole means of knowledge, and therefore, for the reasons I have already given, it is athiest. It denies any supernatural dimension presented as a contradiction of nature, of existence. This applies not only to god, but also to every variant of the supernatural ever advocated or to be advocated. In other words, we accept reality, and that's all.* Leonard Peikoff, "The Philosophy of Objectivism"
Leonard was a leading man in the Objecitivism lectures given by the Ayn Rand Institute. This would have made Ayn Rand an atheist, since she started the lectures and started the objectivism philosophy movement in the late 50's early 60's.
Well thanks for not jumping on my conscience, most people do, when it comes to Ayn Rand, atheists, and theists alike.
Yes Ayn Rand was an atheist, Quote: *Every argument for god every attribute ascribed to "him" rests on a false metaphisical premise. None can survive for a moment on a correct metaphysics.
Existence exists, and only existence exists. Existence is a primary: it is uncreated, indestructible, eternal. So if you are to postulate something beyond existence--some supernatural realm--you must do it by openly denying reason, dispencing with definitions, proofs, arguments, and saying flatly, " To Hell with argument, I have faith." That, of course, is a willful rejection of reason.
Objectivism advocates reason as man's sole means of knowledge, and therefore, for the reasons I have already given, it is athiest. It denies any supernatural dimension presented as a contradiction of nature, of existence. This applies not only to god, but also to every variant of the supernatural ever advocated or to be advocated. In other words, we accept reality, and that's all.* Leonard Peikoff, "The Philosophy of Objectivism"
Leonard was a leading man in the Objecitivism lectures given by the Ayn Rand Institute. This would have made Ayn Rand an atheist, since she started the lectures and started the objectivism philosophy movement in the late 50's early 60's.
Existence exists, and only existence exists. Existence is a primary: it is uncreated, indestructible, eternal. So if you are to postulate something beyond existence--some supernatural realm--you must do it by openly denying reason, dispencing with definitions, proofs, arguments, and saying flatly, " To Hell with argument, I have faith." That, of course, is a willful rejection of reason.
Sorry, but I've got to pick this nonsense apart.
"Existence exists and only existence exists."
What an obvious and self-referential statement this is. Yes, existence exists… and Non-existence does not exists… by definition. This comment means nothing.
"Existence is a primary: it is uncreated, indestructible, eternal."
Talk about presumptions. This is all assumed and, actually, there is evidence that all three of these assumptions are incorrect.
"something beyond existence--some supernatural realm"
Well, now he is equating the "supernatural" with "something beyond existence" which is not the meaning of supernatural. The supernatural is something beyond nature, not beyond existence. Obviously, if something supernatural existed it would exist. The supernatural refers to occurrences (if they truly occur or not) with causes beyond the natural or normal rules of nature. Otherwise theses occurrences are simply natural ones.
"Objectivism advocates reason as man's sole means of knowledge, and therefore, for the reasons I have already given, it is athiest."
Reason is often flawed. Reason is limited by knowledge. Observation is our sole means of knowledge. One's reason is tested in the real world and is confirmed or denied by examination.
"It denies any supernatural dimension presented as a contradiction of nature, of existence."
Here we go again… nature is equated to existence and the "supernatural dimension" is set in opposition to existence.
"and that's all. "
You always have to love conclusions like this. Final word eh? Nothing more to be discussed? Utterly arrogant… and pure horseshit.
~Raithere
Sorry, but I've got to pick this nonsense apart.
"Existence exists and only existence exists."
What an obvious and self-referential statement this is. Yes, existence exists… and Non-existence does not exists… by definition. This comment means nothing.
"Existence is a primary: it is uncreated, indestructible, eternal."
Talk about presumptions. This is all assumed and, actually, there is evidence that all three of these assumptions are incorrect.
"something beyond existence--some supernatural realm"
Well, now he is equating the "supernatural" with "something beyond existence" which is not the meaning of supernatural. The supernatural is something beyond nature, not beyond existence. Obviously, if something supernatural existed it would exist. The supernatural refers to occurrences (if they truly occur or not) with causes beyond the natural or normal rules of nature. Otherwise theses occurrences are simply natural ones.
"Objectivism advocates reason as man's sole means of knowledge, and therefore, for the reasons I have already given, it is athiest."
Reason is often flawed. Reason is limited by knowledge. Observation is our sole means of knowledge. One's reason is tested in the real world and is confirmed or denied by examination.
"It denies any supernatural dimension presented as a contradiction of nature, of existence."
Here we go again… nature is equated to existence and the "supernatural dimension" is set in opposition to existence.
"and that's all. "
You always have to love conclusions like this. Final word eh? Nothing more to be discussed? Utterly arrogant… and pure horseshit.
~Raithere