Atheists: Get A Life!!!!!

[Tiassa]

Are Bolivians oppressing Catholics?

Bolivians are at the polls today, voting on a new constitution. The new charter contains many revisions, including allowing presidents to serve their two possible terms consecutively, recognizing the rights of indigenous communities, capping land ownership, electing judges instead of appointing them, and other measures.

But the new constitution, widely expected to pass, will remove Catholicism as the state religion and officially separate church and state.

It doesn't say anything about atheism, instead making references both to the Christian God and an Andean deity. Still, would we call this oppression of Catholics?
____________________

Notes:

"Bolivians vote on Indian rights". BBC News. January 25, 2009. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7849666.stm

"Key elements of proposed new Bolivian constitution". Associated Press. January 25, 2009. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hUP76QtUAb5bVTzpaY6AJBeNLeqgD95U8L800

 

[S.A.M.]

The Bolivians are looking better to me everyday. Unlike most of the impotent Arab states, they had the balls to cut off diplomatic ties with Israel over the Gaza massacre.

 

[Balerion]

Still, would we call this oppression of Catholics?

Of course not. It is simply the act of removing Catholics from their unwarranted position of power. I applaud the Bolivians.

 

[madanthonywayne]

No, the fact that an openly-atheistic person could never get elected means there is no free speech.

Sorry, but that's ridiculous. It simply means that theists prefer to vote for theists and that this is a democracy. Atheists are widely considered to be weirdos. Weirdos tend to not get elected. It's as simple as that.

 

[Balerion]

Sorry, but that's ridiculous. It simply means that theists prefer to vote for theists and that this is a democracy. Atheists are widely considered to be weirdos. Weirdos tend to not get elected. It's as simple as that.

While it may be true that the majority of Americans prefer a theistic president, we certainly can't prove it. As far as I know, there has never been a major-party atheist candidate.

As for atheists being "widely considered" to be weirdos, that's just patently false. Especially considering what the alternative to an atheist is--a theist. Have you ever met a Jehova's Witness? Or a Mormon? An Amish person? Regardless of the weirdness level of the individual, those faiths are very strange.

 

[iceaura]

Or the people in prison for holocaust "denial"

No one is in prison in the US for holocaust denial.

Atheists in the US do find themselves curbed or restricted in various ways, unable to voice their opinions in public without occasionally paying a price of some kind (in, say, child custody hearings or politically sensitive jobs or discretionary criminal sentencing). And the pressure is strong enough that not only silence but vociferous endorsement of the locally favored theism is sometimes required to avoid penalty.

It's a mild thing, in general- a constant but not too burdensome acquiescence to custom. But it is held at that level by constant pressure, many little battles, and it's a good idea IMHO to fight these battles over petty and trivial things.

We have been a bit slack, lately, and we're getting into dangerous territory - like the job interviews for the Iraq interim management team, that asked about prayer and abortion. Or the Justice Department and other W administration hires that gave preference to certain religious schools.

We should fight this stuff over mottoes on money, and not risk getting into the position of seeing half the Federal DAs in the country espouse evangelical Protestant moral criteria for their choice of prosecution targets.

 

[S.A.M.]

I suppose the Christians might feel the same "low level" of pressure at being forced to say Happy Holidays and remove nativities. Muslims of course, feel a whole other kind of pressure, with Quran desecration in Guantanamo and rendition of detainees without cause. Not to mention being profiled as terrorists and having so many Muslim countries invaded and occupied, with wholesale slaughter of the civilians.

Sorry, but that's ridiculous. It simply means that theists prefer to vote for theists and that this is a democracy. Atheists are widely considered to be weirdos. Weirdos tend to not get elected. It's as simple as that.

True. I'm not sure I could trust an atheist in power, especially after interacting with so many of them. I would have no way to gauge their treatment of theists for one thing [historically, they have been bad at this] and I could not trust them to not impose their values on the rest of the people. And what their values are, would be unpredictable. As far as I can see, atheism comes attached with the belief that atheists know best what other people should believe and whats good for everyone.

 

[iceaura]

suppose the Christians might feel the same "low level" of pressure at being forced to say Happy Holidays and remove nativities.

Forced? Remove what Nativities? The ones they have imposed on public ground?

Christians, like members of other politically dominant and aggressive theistic religions, do tend to feel put upon when their special privileges are revoked. But I have faith they can learn to handle the affront.

Muslims of course, feel a whole other kind of pressure, with Quran desecration in Guantanamo and rendition of detainees without cause. Not to mention being profiled as terrorists and having so many Muslim countries invaded and occupied, with wholesale slaughter of the civilians.

Relevance?

As far as I can see, atheism comes attached with the belief that atheists know best what other people should believe and whats good for everyone

You missed a key point - atheists do not believe that other atheists necessarily know best. They are no more inclined to allow randomly selected atheists to run your life than randomly selected clerics.

It's just that they think you should grant the same to them - no special privileges for claimed theistic belief.

True. I'm not sure I could trust an atheist in power, especially after interacting with so many of them. I would have no way to gauge their treatment of theists for one thing

No way to gauge another person's character, evaluate their beliefs? Is theistic belief so crippling of the perceptions and reason, then?

No wonder so many atheists who gain power are abnormally skilled liars and manipulative psychopaths. Fortunately for them, religious belief is one of the easiest things to feign convincingly.

 

[S.A.M.]

No way to gauge another person's character, evaluate their beliefs? Is theistic belief so crippling of the perceptions and reason, then?

There would be individual considerations of course. But as you said, they might be lying, so how would we know they can be trusted? They can say anything they like to get what they want. So can theists, but you could at least have a general sense of what their community feelings might be. With an atheist its all about himself.

 

[iceaura]

btw

Muslims of course, feel a whole other kind of pressure, with Quran desecration in Guantanamo and rendition of detainees without cause. Not to mention being profiled as terrorists and having so many Muslim countries invaded and occupied, with wholesale slaughter of the civilians.
- - - -
I would have no way to gauge their treatment of theists for one thing - - - And what their values are, would be unpredictable.

You seem to be somehow connecting the evils one group of theists has been visiting on another group, with atheism. Is it that you are comfortable with the bombings and atrocities, because they are predictable theistic behaviors? Is it that you believe

So can theists, but you could at least have a general sense of what their community feelings might be. With an atheist its all about himself.

atheists do not come from communities?

 

[S.A.M.]

btw

You seem to be somehow connecting the evils one group of theists has been visiting on another group, with atheism. Is it that you are comfortable with the bombings and atrocities, because they are predictable theistic behaviors? Is it that you believe atheists do not come from communities?

I'm just giving an opinion of why I may not vote for an atheist, based on my communications with atheists here. I fail to see what that has to do with bombings and such.

 

[iceaura]

I'm just giving an opinion of why I may not vote for an atheist, based on my communications with atheists here. I fail to see what that has to do with bombings and such.

You were talking about the evils visited on Muslims, as examples of oppression. I was pointing out that the theists you are more comfortable with are responsible for those evils.

You seem to find self-proclaimed theists more predictable, easier to gauge. I simply refer to the same examples of theistic behavior you referred to earlier, and note that this is the sort of behavior common among the types of people you trust more. You would vote for predictable people like that, and not vote for an unpredictable atheist, because their lack of belief in deity divorces them from community and predictable character.

Is this true of the atheists in your community - that they are unpredictable, not part of your community really?

 

[S.A.M.]

You were talking about the evils visited on Muslims, as examples of oppression. I was pointing out that the theists you are more comfortable with are responsible for those evils.

You seem to find self-proclaimed theists more predictable, easier to gauge. I simply refer to the same examples of theistic behavior you referred to earlier, and note that this is the sort of behavior common among the types of people you trust more. You would vote for predictable people like that, and not vote for an unpredictable atheist, because their lack of belief in deity divorces them from community and predictable character.

I was merely responding to the low pressure felt by athiests as not being unique, or in fact, laughably and ridiculously minor in comparison to other groups.

Given that self proclaimed atheists are less likely, I tend to view with suspicion any self proclaimed theist who laughs behind doors at evangelicals.

Is this true of the atheists in your community - that they are unpredictable, not part of your community really?

No idea, they don't identify themselves with their lack of faith and go around demanding a ban on public displays of religion.

 

[wizard]

sam you are misinterpreting everything

we do not have "low pressure" from being a minority, and most of us don't care about public displays of religion.

 

[iceaura]

No idea, they don't identify themselves with their lack of faith and go around demanding a ban on public displays of religion.

It's not a ban on public displays of religion. It's a ban on government sponsored displays of religion.

So you would vote for them?

I was merely responding to the low pressure felt by athiests as not being unique, or in fact, laughably and ridiculously minor in comparison to other groups.

? Whatever that means, you were talking about the evils visited upon Muslims, at first, and then a segue into a mistrust of atheists, second, as risky in how they would treat theists.

I thought the juxtaposition a bit odd. You have noticed that the evils visited upon Muslims worldwide are mostly (with a few Chinese exceptions, but that wouldn't involve voting anyway) by their fellow Abrahamic deity theists, right?

 

[S.A.M.]

It's not a ban on public displays of religion. It's a ban on government sponsored displays of religion.

Thats usually what PUBLIC means.

So you would vote for them?

They'd have to convince me of their ability to be secular rather than just atheists. I haven't seen it yet.

? Whatever that means, you were talking about the evils visited upon Muslims, at first, and then a segue into a mistrust of atheists, second, as risky in how they would treat theists.

No, you were talking about the low pressure on atheists and I contrasted it with the Christians and Muslims in the same society.

I thought the juxtaposition a bit odd. You have noticed that the evils visited upon Muslims worldwide are mostly (with a few Chinese exceptions, but that wouldn't involve voting anyway) by their fellow Abrahamic deity theists, right?

Not at all. You're probably not up to date on the genocide of Muslims in atheist states

 

[lightgigantic]

Liebling

Originally Posted by lightgigantic
so what is the essential difference between a god that does absolutely nothing and remains absolutely unknowable and atheism?


”
dogma.

It's not clear what (or even how) dogma could possibly be attributed to a god that does absolutely nothing and remains absolutely unknowable .....

 

[iceaura]

It's not a ban on public displays of religion. It's a ban on government sponsored displays of religion.
”
Thats usually what PUBLIC means.

No, it isn't.

They'd have to convince me of their ability to be secular rather than just atheists. I haven't seen it yet.

"They who have eyes, and see not" JC.

No, you were talking about the low pressure on atheists and I contrasted it with the Christians and Muslims in the same society.

You didn't, actually. But it's revealing that you consider a loss of special government sponsorship "pressure", comparable to having to conceal one's spiritual beliefs to keep one's job.

Not at all. You're probably not up to date on the genocide of Muslims in atheist states

I'm up to date on your specific references to atrocities here, which you post in tandem with complaints about untrustworthy atheists, making an odd juxtaposition - since your complaints are all about the deeds of Abrahamic theists.

But I'll bite: we've mentioned and dismissed China. These other atheist states committing "genocides" against Muslims: which are they?

 

[S.A.M.]

No, it isn't.

I've already been through this, as someone who comes from a country where its acceptable to have public displays of religion, I can see the clear difference between Christians saying Merry Christmas in India and Happy holidays in the US

You didn't, actually. But it's revealing that you consider a loss of special government sponsorship "pressure", comparable to having to conceal one's spiritual beliefs to keep one's job.

Yeah right, being profiled as a terrorist is less stressful than not being able to publicly declare that you have no belief in God.

I'm up to date on your specific references to atrocities here, which you post in tandem with complaints about untrustworthy atheists, making an odd juxtaposition - since your complaints are all about the deeds of Abrahamic theists.

But I'll bite: we've mentioned and dismissed China. These other atheist states committing "genocides" against Muslims: which are they?

I suggest you look up the fate of Muslims under the Soviet Union [through the Union of the Godless], as well in other places like Cambodia and Vietnam. Atheists like Slobodan Milosevic for instance have instigated the slaughter of thousands including the infamous murder of 7000 men and boys in Srebrenica.

 

[Bells]

Stop repeating that rumor as if it were a fact. It's hearsay based on a quote from a guy who spoke with Bush but doesn't even speak English! (Abbas, I think). Can you find a direct quote from George W Bush himself saying he was ordered to go to war by God?

Hmmm you're right.

My apologies.

From the outset he has couched the "global war on terror" in quasi-religious terms, as a struggle between good and evil. Al-Qa'ida terrorists are routinely described as evil-doers. For Mr Bush, the invasion of Iraq has always been part of the struggle against terrorism, and he appears to see himself as the executor of the divine will.

He told Bob Woodward - whose 2004 book, Plan of Attack, is the definitive account of the administration's road to war in Iraq - that after giving the order to invade in March 2003, he walked in the White House garden, praying "that our troops be safe, be protected by the Almighty". As he went into this critical period, he told Mr Woodward, "I was praying for strength to do the Lord's will.

"I'm surely not going to justify war based upon God. Understand that. Nevertheless, in my case, I pray that I will be as good a messenger of His will as possible. And then of course, I pray for forgiveness."

Another telling sign of Mr Bush's religion was his answer to Mr Woodward's question on whether he had asked his father - the former president who refused to launch a full-scale invasion of Iraq after driving Saddam Hussein from Kuwait in 1991 - for advice on what to do.

The current President replied that his earthly father was "the wrong father to appeal to for advice ... there is a higher father that I appeal to".



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bush-god-told-me-to-invade-iraq-509925.html
​

He had turned to God at the age of 40 as a way of kicking alcoholism, and his faith had kept him on the straight and narrow ever since, giving him the drive to reach the White House.

But all that changed on the day of the attacks on the Pentagon and World Trade Center.

Those close to Mr Bush say that day he discovered his life's mission.

He became convinced that God was calling him to engage the forces of evil in battle, and this one time baseball-team owner from Texas did not shrink from the task.

'Angels' country'

"We are in a conflict between good and evil. And America will call evil by its name," Mr Bush told West Point graduates in a speech last year.

In this battle, he placed his country firmly on the side of the angels.

"There is wonder-working power in the goodness and idealism of the American people," he said in this year's State of the Union address.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2921345.stm
​

What was I thinking.. the man is a virtual atheist.

Oh, and yes.. have a look at this interview

About the war in Iraq and one of the reasons why it is necessary..

"The idea is to promote freedom..."

Shortly after, he goes on to say:

"The God I know promotes peace and freedom"..

Hmmm... interesting, don't you think?