Atheists: Get A Life!!!!!

SAM said:
I've already been through this, as someone who comes from a country where its acceptable to have public displays of religion, I can see the clear difference between Christians saying Merry Christmas in India and Happy holidays in the US
That Happy Holidays stuff is a battle among different brands of theists. We atheists just say "Merry Christmas" - that being the name of the holiday.

And we walk around enjoying the public dispalys of religion, which are very colorful that time of year - thousands of them, in my city, all perfectly acceptable.

SAM said:
Yeah right, being profiled as a terrorist is less stressful than not being able to publicly declare that you have no belief in God.
Try our method - hide your spiritual beliefs. Then maybe you won't be profiled. We atheists have long experience with being profiled, as Communists and the like.

SAM said:
I suggest you look up the fate of Muslims under the Soviet Union [through the Union of the Godless], as well in other places like Cambodia and Vietnam. Atheists like Slobodan Milosevic for instance have instigated the slaughter of thousands including the infamous murder of 7000 men and boys in Srebrenica.
Well, the topic was genocide against Muslims by an atheist State. So if we call the Soviets and "atheist state", ignore the fact that majority of the atrocity doers were Christian, and label the Afghan War a genocide, that's one. And Cambodia for four years, if we ignore the previous eleven years of theistic carpet bombing, that may have killed more Muslims than the Pol Pot regime, and certainly is as responsible for the brutalized insanity of the rural cadre as any take on a deity, that's two.

The massacre commander at Srebrenica was the probable theist Ratko Mladic (his grandchild named for a Christian saint), Milosevic himself was generally matched by the Kosovo Liberation Army of Theists and approached by others. So we have an ugly war between brands of theists, one set led by an atheist with the several others led by fellow theists, and atheist State genocide doesn't seem to describe the situation.

Still not sure where the wariness about atheists comes in. Guys like Milosevic are high profile, but the theist field commanders are still free, going to the mosque on Fridays or the synagogue on Saturdays or the church on Sundays - maybe all three, hedge their bets.
 
Still not sure where the wariness about atheists comes in

Probably from the lack of meeting any that self identify as atheist and are secular.
 
SAM said:
Probably from the lack of meeting any that self identify as atheist and are secular.
A very high percentage of scientists self-identify as atheist. They don't appear "secular", to you? Or you don't meet them?

Or maybe people don't self-identify as atheist in your vicinity, or in the US, very often. I meet very few people who self-identify as atheist at all, even in groups where such stances would be expectably common. Atheists aren't frogs, announcing themselves all evening - and they keep their heads down, in the US, if prudent.

If your confusion of "public" and "government sponsored" carries over into "secular" and "supportive of religious impositions", then there is another problem, naturally.
 
This thread is hilarious.
The Bolivians are looking better to me everyday. Unlike most of the impotent Arab states, they had the balls to cut off diplomatic ties with Israel over the Gaza massacre.
They only have the ability to do this because of recent increased help from China. Hate Israel all you like, but I'm not so sure you're going to jump on the China-train. It's not exactly much better over here.
I could not trust them to not impose their values on the rest of the people.
All leaders, everywhere, in all of history, have imposed their values on other people. That is what government does. The idea of a secular state is just to remove religious-based values from being imposed. There are still many other things a value can be based in.
atheism comes attached with the belief that atheists know best what other people should believe and whats good for everyone.
As does nearly every religion in history.
Judaism states Jews are the chosen.
Christianity states Christ is the only way to the kingdom.
Islam awaits the day the trees point out the non-believer.
Buddhism says there is no path to oneness except Buddhism.
Confucianism says anyone who does not follow The Way cannot lead and cannot be lead.
etc.
But as you said, they might be lying, so how would we know they can be trusted? They can say anything they like to get what they want. So can theists, but you could at least have a general sense of what their community feelings might be. With an atheist its all about himself.
Only if you willfully choose to ignore that person's philosophy. If I identified as a Humanist, you would have some fine idea of how I reason. If I identified as a Kantian, or a neo-Aristotelian, you would have a decent understanding of how I think. The same goes from theists. If someone calls themselves an Evangelical Protestant, I have some knowledge on how they form beliefs.

The difficulty is that we know best what we grow up with. So Americans - of whatever religion - are well acquainted with the common positions of Protestantism. If you ran for election as a Hindu, people would have no goddamn idea what you base your beliefs on. Same with Humanism or Idealism or whatever other "ism" some prospective official chooses to adopt.
They'd have to convince me of their ability to be secular rather than just atheists. I haven't seen it yet.
That's kind of like if I said I've never seen a Moslem leader allow all the freedom I believe is necessary and human rights to flourish, therefore I would never vote for a Moslem. Which is ludicrous. Only a crazy person (of which there seem to be many) would vote based on community history rather than individual merit.

If your statement is simply that you would have to take each atheist case-by-case; well, duh... I hope you do the same for everyone else. Moslems, Christians and Jews have all been guilty of some pretty remarkable atrocities. I don't see Obama (identifying as a Christian) and think "hmmm, I find it hard to vote for him because the last self-identifying Christian president was a pretty big fuck-up." And I wouldn't look at a Jewish congressman and say "hmmm, I find it hard to vote for him because Olmert is a monster and this guy has the same hooked nose." Likewise I wouldn't look at a Moslem candidate and say "well I really like the Ahmadinejad fellow, and these guys both pray to the same god, so I'll vote for him!"

Certainly there are many people out there who do this. But they are stupid.

And just cause I don't want to discriminate...
No, the fact that an openly-atheistic person could never get elected means there is no free speech.
That's bullshit. Free speech just means you can say anything you want. It doesn't mean you can say anything you want and then get elected to office. That has absolutely nothing to do with free speech.

What you're talking about is cultural priorities. America is still a very conservative and religious country. They are probably not going to elect an atheist, or an African witch doctor, anytime soon. The atheist (myself) and the African witch doctor (whom I would love to meet) can say anything we want, but it doesn't mean we're going to get elected.

Americans not electing atheists does not violate freedom of speech any more than Americans not electing a self-identifying witch doctor violates freedom of speech. If we needed to have every different form of belief represented in office before "freedom" was attained, congress would need about another 40,000 seats.
 
The danger of the sacrifice of the intellect

Here's an interesting proposition:

Professional athletes are often criticized for their behavior; whether driving drunk, smoking pot, beating their wives, or setting off firecrackers, pro athletes in the United States are constantly admonished that they are role models for young people, and called upon to conduct themselves as such. Many athletes, especially once they're caught up in a controversy, defend themselves by claiming they aren't role models for anyone, but that's always a difficult claim if one is a superstar with thousands of kids wearing their gear, imitating their moves, and affecting their speech.​

Okay, one thing they're not called out on, though, is being religiously crazy.

Last season, an MLB player named Josh Hamilton set a record by driving twenty-eight home runs in the All Star HR Derby. And afterward, he gave an awkward speech/interview thanking God for his success. And you know, I can almost understand it in his case; he apparently had recovered from what was thought to be a career-ending heroin addiction to find success on the second go-round. But, still, it was a tremendously awkward, even bizarre moment.

And occasionally, you hear a mixed martial arts fighter, or a boxer thanking God and Jesus for their victories, and that's a little tougher. Because while I can understand the idea of someone thanking God for the fact that they get to have the career they do, I just don't see the point in suggesting it was God's will that you kicked the shit out of the other guy. It doesn't make a lot of sense.

Now enter Kurt Warner, the quarterback for the NFL's Arizona Cardinals. He's Super Bowl bound, and, well, of course we can send our congratulations, and probably also our condolences as the Cards are expected to get wiped all over the field.

But here's some footage of Warner drawing a picture of God for the forthcoming documentary God in the Box.

The guy is something else on the football field; at thirty-seven he can still drop jaws and burn defenses. But off the field ... well, yeah, he's, uh, something else.

His expressions of faith present an interesting question. Is one necessarily being a good role model in proselytizing? That is, does the mere fact of evangelizing set a positive example? Or is there something more, like what you say and how you say it?

For all Warner's appearance of giving certain issues of faith deep thought, it's ridiculous. There are more clips available at the film's website, and, well, they're kind of strange. I mean, yeah, I hear this kind of stuff on a regular basis if I stick my head out and look for it, so I don't think it's uncommon. But is it right?

And some of the drawings of God are interesting, too. But more to the point: In the past, philosophers have done some impressive work on the subject of God. Sure, there's Anselm's ludicrous proof of God, and the Cartesian circle seems nothing more than a stoner's rambled waxing. But at least they were trying.

So while some might suggest that evangelizing Christ is setting a positive model, what if that proselytization sets a really low intellectual standard?

I believe it was Aquinas who wrote that the sacrifice in which God most delights is that of the intellect. But is this really what he meant?

This is one of the dangers of faith our atheistic neighbors see. Religious faith seems to constantly be dulling itself in order to present the appearance of greater accessibility, but there comes a time when one legitimately asks, "Yeah, but do I really want to be like them?"

Maybe it's good for rallying the faithful, for preaching to the choir as such. But this kind of ... um ... yeah, stupidity does no real good, and if it wins any hearts and minds for Jesus, is might be a pyrrhic victory.

Look, it's not my business what Kurt Warner believes. Except that he wants to make it my business. And yours. And yeah, we ought to be glad that there's something in the world that makes him want to do good things for other people, but would he do it if he didn't feel compelled to by God? Is the fact that some things just need to be done insufficient?

This brand of faith seems a dubious role model.
 
And occasionally, you hear a mixed martial arts fighter, or a boxer thanking God and Jesus for their victories, and that's a little tougher. Because while I can understand the idea of someone thanking God for the fact that they get to have the career they do, I just don't see the point in suggesting it was God's will that you kicked the shit out of the other guy. It doesn't make a lot of sense.

You don't know God.

"The Lord is a man of war, and the Lord is His name."
Song of Victory, Exodus 15

And then there's the whole part with Isaiah and putting every thing that breathes to the sword.
 
But here's some footage of Warner drawing a picture of God for the forthcoming documentary God in the Box.

The guy is something else on the football field; at thirty-seven he can still drop jaws and burn defenses. But off the field ... well, yeah, he's, uh, something else.

Ignoring your valid points on whether or not retarded expressions of religious faith are the same sorts of moral failings in our "role-models" as illegal dog fights (who cares) and prostitutes (why isn't it legal yet), he actually gave a pretty good reason as to why he pictures God the way he does. His explanation was only a couple sentences in the middle, but it certainly seemed like a fair enough justification, as far as justifications for silly shit goes.
 
No particular reason, I guess

Swivel said:

Tiassa, how in the world did you leave Tim Tebow out of that post?

I haven't seen his drawing of God?

The story came to me via my RSS feed for Slog. I don't deny Tebow's talk, but I think Josh Hamilton provides a specific contrast; after all, if one insists on being thankful to God, it's hard to find something more to give thanks for than recovering from heroin and having a professional sports career. At least, as a contrast to thanking Jesus for helping you win a game, or something.
 
I haven't seen his drawing of God?

The story came to me via my RSS feed for Slog. I don't deny Tebow's talk, but I think Josh Hamilton provides a specific contrast; after all, if one insists on being thankful to God, it's hard to find something more to give thanks for than recovering from heroin and having a professional sports career. At least, as a contrast to thanking Jesus for helping you win a game, or something.

Tim Tebow is the closest thing we have to proof of God's existence. That's all I'm sayin'.
 
Hmm, truly inspiring. Srsly.

tebow09.jpg
 
Beer and bacon

Swivel said:

Tim Tebow is the closest thing we have to proof of God's existence. That's all I'm sayin'.

Well, there's the famous quote attributed to Ben Franklin: "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."

In the twenty-first century, though, there's always the Bacon Explosion.


Photo by Don Ipock for The New York Times.

Beer and bacon. What more do we need?
 
Well, there's the famous quote attributed to Ben Franklin: "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."

In the twenty-first century, though, there's always the Bacon Explosion.


Photo by Don Ipock for The New York Times.

Beer and bacon. What more do we need?

Well, as a Gator fan, I sure am glad to have one more year of Tebow to go with my beer and bacon.

Praise Jesus, Christ Almighty, my lord and shepherd, my savior and my rock, who died for my sins, for I am not worthy, praise him and the Father and the Ghost and the Virgin Mary and St. Peter, in my Lord's name, the Holy Spirit, in his name we pray, for ever and ever until the rapture, that my soul may be entrusted into his care, Lord Christ's, by his father's right hand, ever more, Amen.
 
I hear atheists are pushing for Obama to not use the word "God" in his inauguration. And we're always hearing about atheists filing lawsuits so people are bared from uttering the words "under God" in the pledge. Then there's Christmas trees, nativity scenes on on town square, whatever. My question is, if you don't believe in God, why are you so offended by the word?

Seriously, if someone sneezes and someone else says "God Bless You", they're just being polite. It's completely harmless whether you believe in God or not. If a town wants to put up a nativity scene, what's the big, fucking deal? This country is 90% Christian for fucks sake. Live and let live. How does someone else's superstition affect you in any way? How are you harmed if some people utter the words "under God". How are you harmed by a Nativity scene?

I work with a bunch of Christians and one Muslim. I gave everyone a Christmas present including her (the Muslim, it hardly seemed fair to stiff her). Far from being offended, she gave me a Christmas present in return. Does this mean she's renouncing her faith? Of course not. We're just two people who, despite having different beliefs, respect each other and can behave like adults. Sadly, many atheists seem unable to live and let live and are engaged in a jihad to wipe the word God from the English language and ban Christianity from the public square.

Live and let live. Stop the jihad. Get a life.

It is amazing how a few desperate attempts to restore the separation of church and state are magnified in the mind of the faithful. Christians control public opinion, the pronouncement of all the politicians, and even social scientists are afraid to speak out against their faith. Atheists are like gay people used to be, most of us have to hide in the closet or end up without a job or employees, lose friends and alienate everyone!

But, you know, I am happy I discarded the old nonsense some 65 years ago. I have lived a very interesting, moral, and unusual life. I have been to 35 nations and lived in 6 different ones. I've lived through the best age of all of these modern times and leave you, the religious reactionary, to experience the mess that our society is becoming, the society we atheists built up in the great Age of Enlightenment.

charles
http://atheistic-science.com
 
I've lived through the best age of all of these modern times and leave you, the religious reactionary, to experience the mess that our society is becoming, the society we atheists built up in the great Age of Enlightenment.

Taking facetiousness to a new level. Nice. :thumbsup:

Atheist = Scapegoat
 
I've lived through the best age of all of these modern times and leave you, the religious reactionary, to experience the mess that our society is becoming, the society we atheists built up in the great Age of Enlightenment.

Truer words were never spoken.
 
Christians control public opinion, the pronouncement of all the politicians...

...the mess that our society is becoming, the society we atheists built up in the great Age of Enlightenment.

It would appear the former contradicts the latter, unless I'm not reading you right.

Wouldn't it have been the theists who messed up society?
 
It would appear the former contradicts the latter, unless I'm not reading you right.

Wouldn't it have been the theists who messed up society?

. . . a misunderstanding. "our society" in my context there refers not to us atheists but the "society" of our civilization, the one Christianity started but the Age of Enlightenment reformed when it got too old. . . .the one that is now being re-taken by the religious militants, the Religious Right.

charles
http://atheistic-science.com
 
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