Arrested for not Tipping

[milkweed]

I see, so you think highlighting what I've already pointed out somehow makes YOUR point?
OVER AND ABOVE the actual amount DUE. In other words - extras.

I did read that part.
A "service charge" is NOT a gratuity. It's that simple.

And this is where your wheels fall off your wagon. There was an example given as a service charge for a banquet. This is an example and not all encompassing. The gratuity as charged is a service rendered (accommodating a party greater than 6 or 8 dependent on resturant).

It is in Pennsylvania (where this happened), and it is in Florida and it is in other places. And its clearly separated from the tips/gratuities left on a table above and beyond what the bill total is in california. When a gratuity is auto-charged on a bill in California in this same situation where the menu states it will be added, you could be arrested for refusing to pay that. When a menu says auto gratuity % charged for [whatever], it is part of the bill for services.

If this goes all the way to court (the pennsylvania case), they will lose. It is written on the menu in this establishment that a gratuity WILL BE added for parties of 6 or more.

They MIGHT have been able to get out of it with separate checks. But that isnt how the check came.

 

[kira]

where i live and in many other places, servers are paid about half of minimum wage. how simple is that?

Is that legal...? Isn't minimum supposed to be lowest

 

[Dywyddyr]

And this is where your wheels fall off your wagon.

Not quite.

When a gratuity is auto-charged on a bill in California in this same situation where the menu states it will be added, you could be arrested for refusing to pay that. When a menu says auto gratuity % charged for [whatever], it is part of the bill for services.

In which case, by definition, it isn't a gratuity.

And, as I said in an earlier post, I will not pay, and I will inform the restaurant (or whoever) that the wording is mutually exclusive: it cannot be mandatory AND a gratuity.

If this goes all the way to court (the pennsylvania case), they will lose. It is written on the menu in this establishment that a gratuity WILL BE added for parties of 6 or more.

And just because it's ADDED doesn't mean it WILL be paid, also as I said in my earlier post.

 

[Lori_7]

Is that legal...? Isn't minimum supposed to be lowest

not for food servers. the assumption is that food servers are to be paid primarily in the form of gratuity. otherwise it would not be legal for the restaurant to pay them less than minimum.

when i first started waitressing, back in the 80's the pay rate was 2.01 per hour. when i resumed waitressing in 2000, the rate had increased a mere .12 to 2.13 per hour. and while continuing to waitress in the early half of this decade, the rate was raised to $4 and some change, to adjust it per increases in the regular minimum wage, that apparently it had been excluded from up to that point.

at $2 or $4, your paycheck reflects income taxes being withheld from your wages and on 10% of your sales for that period, reducing it down to next to nothing, if anything at all. there were plenty of pay periods when my paycheck was for $0.

 

[kira]

not for food servers. the assumption is that food servers are to be paid primarily in the form of gratuity. otherwise it would not be legal for the restaurant to pay them less than minimum.

Then, “the thieves” are not the customers that don’t leave tips, but the employers (restaurant owners) that reduce the servers’ salary into below minimum wage. To be fair, their salary should be at least the same to that of minimum wage, and the tips are just bonus, as it is defined. To be even fairer, the tips should be reported and shared with everyone who contributes in the work (cookers, cleaners, etc.). You don’t leave tips just because the service is good, but also the food tastes good and so on.

I personally always leave tips (between 3 to 5 Euros, depends on how much coins I have as change or available in my wallet ). If I have no coins, I would tell them, take x Euros. But then again, in Indonesia and here in Germany, I never experienced bad service. In fact at some fast food restaurants like McDonalds, I get something extra if my order coming late. In local McDonalds here, they would turn this hourglass (sand clock) themselves, prepare my order, and when their service are late (exceeding the hourglass), they give me extra ice cream or something without being requested. At a sushi bar in Berlin, I could not finish my foods (because it was too much), then when I left, they packed something else for me because they thought that I didn't like the taste of the food that I ate, HA!

 

[sifreak21]

listen...it's nobody's problem but yours...if you can't understand that you are supposed to pay a server for their service, you're obviously mentally challenged. and if you do understand that, and don't do it anyway, then you're a thief.

those are your only two options.

id have to disagree with this. as a waitress or waiter you get hired on to serve people, and the restaraut is responsible for your wages. the people you wait on are not which is where the argument falls short. i as a patron arent responsible nor should i be responsible for your wages

 

[joepistole]

I think these people are going to loose. Because in restraunts like this one, they usual have a disclosure on the menu that states gratuity is mandatory. So when one orders, they have accepted the terms of service.

I do not like or approve of the practice. But legally, I think these customers don't have a legal leg to stand on if it was disclosed to them that a 15 percent surcharge (gratuity) would be applied to the bill.

 

[kira]

I think these people are going to loose. Because in restraunts like this one, they usual have a disclosure on the menu that states gratuity is mandatory. So when one orders, they have accepted the terms of service.

It is debatable, because the Terms of Service has contradictive/confusing meaning. They should just write "15% added fee" instead of gratuity.

 

[Lori_7]

Then, “the thieves” are not the customers that don’t leave tips, but the employers (restaurant owners) that reduce the servers’ salary into below minimum wage. To be fair, their salary should be at least the same to that of minimum wage, and the tips are just bonus, as it is defined. To be even fairer, the tips should be reported and shared with everyone who contributes in the work (cookers, cleaners, etc.). You don’t leave tips just because the service is good, but also the food tastes good and so on.

I personally always leave tips (between 3 to 5 Euros, depends on how much coins I have as change or available in my wallet ). If I have no coins, I would tell them, take x Euros. But then again, in Indonesia and here in Germany, I never experienced bad service. In fact at some fast food restaurants like McDonalds, I get something extra if my order coming late. In local McDonalds here, they would turn this hourglass (sand clock) themselves, prepare my order, and when their service are late (exceeding the hourglass), they give me extra ice cream or something without being requested. At a sushi bar in Berlin, I could not finish my foods (because it was too much), then when I left, they packed something else for me because they thought that I didn't like the taste of the food that I ate, HA!

nope, the gratuity is JUST for the service. the cooks get paid a hell of a lot more on the hour than the waitstaff does. and i would suggest that if anyone thinks a full service establishment is run by thieves, for not paying the waitresses a higher hourly rate, that they do not patronize such establishments. bottom line is that food servers get paid through gratuities, so if you disagree with that premise, and wish to protest it, don't do it by not paying the waitress, do it by not sitting down and having them wait on you. :shrug:

 

[Lori_7]

id have to disagree with this. as a waitress or waiter you get hired on to serve people, and the restaraut is responsible for your wages. the people you wait on are not which is where the argument falls short. i as a patron arent responsible nor should i be responsible for your wages

you may wish all you want...that's just not how it works. food servers get paid in gratuities of customers. that's how it works. as i've said, if one wishes to protest that, then don't sit your ass down in a restaurant and require yourself to be served.

 

[kira]

nope, the gratuity is JUST for the service. the cooks get paid a hell of a lot more on the hour than the waitstaff does. and i would suggest that if anyone thinks a full service establishment is run by thieves, for not paying the waitresses a higher hourly rate, that they do not patronize such establishments. bottom line is that food servers get paid through gratuities, so if you disagree with that premise, and wish to protest it, don't do it by not paying the waitress, do it by not sitting down and having them wait on you. :shrug:

If that is the case (gratuity is for service), do you think the customers are obliged to pay gratuity for the poor service which is mentioned in the OP?

 

[Cowboy]

I smell a big fat lawsuit being filed against the restaurant and police department, and rightfully so.

 

[Lori_7]

If that is the case (gratuity is for service), do you think the customers are obliged to pay gratuity for the poor service which is mentioned in the OP?

i'm a discriminatory tipper for sure, because i've spent over a decade busting my ass serving people, and i know what a very hard job it is. i don't think a lot of people who haven't done it for a living realize that, but i also don't think it takes much thought to consider it. there are a lot of extenuating circumstances that some people don't take into consideration...like the kitchen. i've worked in places where the kitchen staff sucked so bad, it was like pulling teeth to get the food from them, and when you did, it was of extremely poor quality. some people jump at the chance to take that out on the server, and out of the server's tip, when in fact, it was not the server's fault, and the server had been in the kitchen ripping the cooks a new asshole in defense of the customer and their tip.

when i dine out, i make sure i watch the server. i take a look around and consider how busy they are, if there is some asshole customer monopolizing their time and effort. there have been situations plenty of times when i was so slammed with customers that i was running my ass off trying to do the very best i could, and still couldn't give everyone the service and attention i would have liked to. that is not the server's fault. i have also waited on one table that was so needy and picky that they demanded more attention than the entire rest of my station put together. i learned not to pay so much attention to those needy tables. some people are just sociopaths and don't deserve the privilege of being served. that's not the server's fault either.

but i've also had servers that showed unexplained animosity and apathy. i've watched them idle and neglecting their responsibilities, and i don't think those servers should make nearly as much money as those who exert an effort and do a good job.

bottom line...when i dine out, i EXPECT to pay a gratuity of about 20%. if i get service that is REALLY good, i've been known to leave way more than that, and if i get service that's REALLY bad, i've been known to leave less than that. but i know from being in the industry, that some people are looking for a way out of paying for the service they receive, and if they're looking hard enough, they'll come up with one. it used to make my laugh...those customers are easy to spot as soon as you walk up to the table. i'd bend over backwards to give them impeccable service and watch them get more and more pissed off because they couldn't find anything to bitch about. and in the end, they wouldn't leave a tip anyway...they never planned to. i made sure they knew that it didn't have a damn thing to do with the service, and that it was just a matter of them being a selfish asshole.

 

[joepistole]

It may also be good to keep in mind that the rules that apply to one country may not apply to another.

 

[kira]

i'm a discriminatory tipper for sure, because i've spent over a decade busting my ass serving people, and i know what a very hard job it is. i don't think a lot of people who haven't done it for a living realize that, but i also don't think it takes much thought to consider it. there are a lot of extenuating circumstances that some people don't take into consideration...like the kitchen. i've worked in places where the kitchen staff sucked so bad, it was like pulling teeth to get the food from them, and when you did, it was of extremely poor quality. some people jump at the chance to take that out on the server, and out of the server's tip, when in fact, it was not the server's fault, and the server had been in the kitchen ripping the cooks a new asshole in defense of the customer and their tip.

when i dine out, i make sure i watch the server. i take a look around and consider how busy they are, if there is some asshole customer monopolizing their time and effort. there have been situations plenty of times when i was so slammed with customers that i was running my ass off trying to do the very best i could, and still couldn't give everyone the service and attention i would have liked to. that is not the server's fault. i have also waited on one table that was so needy and picky that they demanded more attention than the entire rest of my station put together. i learned not to pay so much attention to those needy tables. some people are just sociopaths and don't deserve the privilege of being served. that's not the server's fault either.

but i've also had servers that showed unexplained animosity and apathy. i've watched them idle and neglecting their responsibilities, and i don't think those servers should make nearly as much money as those who exert an effort and do a good job.

bottom line...when i dine out, i EXPECT to pay a gratuity of about 20%. if i get service that is REALLY good, i've been known to leave way more than that, and if i get service that's REALLY bad, i've been known to leave less than that. but i know from being in the industry, that some people are looking for a way out of paying for the service they receive, and if they're looking hard enough, they'll come up with one. it used to make my laugh...those customers are easy to spot as soon as you walk up to the table. i'd bend over backwards to give them impeccable service and watch them get more and more pissed off because they couldn't find anything to bitch about. and in the end, they wouldn't leave a tip anyway...they never planned to. i made sure they knew that it didn't have a damn thing to do with the service, and that it was just a matter of them being a selfish asshole.

Uhm, that hasn't answered my previous question yet.

Personally I always work with good faith. I also have done a lot of hard job in my free time in the past (not anymore since I have better job). For example, I've worked as maid in hotel. The payment wasn't per hour, but per number of rooms that I could clean. It took me much longer than average to clean one room, so I always got less money compared to others. Once the supervisor checked me, and said that I don't have to clean "invisible dirt" as the guests wouldn't notice anyway. I refused. I told her that they are the source of my living, so I wish them good health (clean place). She gave me this "huh" look. Anyway, I did that because I wanted to free from guilty feeling

 

[kira]

It may also be good to keep in mind that the rules that apply to one country may not apply to another.

True.

I found things are very nice in Germany, people are not so greedy compared to that in my country, especially in big city (Jakarta, Indonesia). For example, here in Germany, once I apparently have two insurances. One from my scholarship, the other from my part-time job employer. I automatically got this health insurance from my employer when I got the part-time job. One day I went to a dentist, the dentist asked me to show my insurance. I showed him both. He then said, I am not allowed to have double insurances, I have to resign one. So, I asked my employer what to do, he then told me to resign from the insurance company that he applied for me. The insurance company then send me a letter, and asked me, since when was I insured by the other insurance, I replied since I come to Germany. Then, they returned ALL the money that I (my employer) have paid to them :bugeye: (I didn't ask!). That was 520 Euros (4 x 130 Euros). As the employer have budgeted my insurance, they told me to keep the money for myself as Christmas gift, HA!

 

[Lori_7]

Uhm, that hasn't answered my previous question yet.

Personally I always work with good faith. I also have done a lot of hard job in my free time in the past (not anymore since I have better job). For example, I've worked as maid in hotel. The payment wasn't per hour, but per number of rooms that I could clean. It took me much longer than average to clean one room, so I always got less money compared to others. Once the supervisor checked me, and said that I don't have to clean "invisible dirt" as the guests wouldn't notice anyway. I refused. I told her that they are the source of my living, so I wish them good health (clean place). She gave me this "huh" look. Anyway, I did that because I wanted to free from guilty feeling

i'm sorry, my response was a bit wordy, but my answer is that i'm discriminating (not discriminatory??) when it comes to tipping, and that i always give the server the benefit of the doubt. in the case cited in the OP, waiting on the food could very well, and probably was, the fault of the kitchen, or the management for short-staffing or improperly staffing the restaurant. if the restaurant was very busy i would have taken the time to observe how many other patrons my server was waiting on, and how fast she was moving. if the patron had to get services from the bar, she could have very well apportioned the tip with the bartender. everybody makes mistakes, and more often than not, circumstances override the server's efforts. in the end, there are a lot of considerations that i don't think the average person considers. i think some people are looking for ways to get out of tipping, rather than looking for ways to be generous. i always look for ways to be generous, when i'm dining out, and in my life in general. in other words, a server would have to practically spit on me to get a shitty tip from me.

 

[kira]

i'm sorry, my response was a bit wordy, but my answer is that i'm discriminating (not discriminatory??) when it comes to tipping, and that i always give the server the benefit of the doubt. in the case cited in the OP, waiting on the food could very well, and probably was, the fault of the kitchen, or the management for short-staffing or improperly staffing the restaurant. if the restaurant was very busy i would have taken the time to observe how many other patrons my server was waiting on, and how fast she was moving. if the patron had to get services from the bar, she could have very well apportioned the tip with the bartender. everybody makes mistakes, and more often than not, circumstances override the server's efforts. in the end, there are a lot of considerations that i don't think the average person considers. i think some people are looking for ways to get out of tipping, rather than looking for ways to be generous. i always look for ways to be generous, when i'm dining out, and in my life in general. in other words, a server would have to practically spit on me to get a shitty tip from me.

I basically understand where you are coming from (understand your point of view).

 

[Ellie]

Lori_7, tipping is done basically only in u.s. it takes awhile to get used to it but if you didnt grow up with it it is difficult to envision.

 

[Orleander]

So it depends on where you live then . Here all workers must have minimum wages or above and it is the law .

Do you have a link to that? Food servers are not paid min wage here. Tips are considered part of their wage, which is why I had to claim them on my taxes.