Argument for the "70 weeks messiah prophecy"?

[Captain Kremmen]

Garbonzo, that attack is over the top.
You have no good reason for calling Adstar a hypocrite.

What Adstar is saying is standard Protestant theology.
Catholic theology is a little different, but we don't want a rerun of the Reformation wars on here, do we?

 

[NMSquirrel]

you have to imitate Jesus, you have to prove you are a Christian
you are a hypocrite,
That's not what the Bible
Are you doing that?
Are you going out and preaching the "good news" as Jesus said?
Are you not doing the works of the flesh and having the qualities of the fruitage of the spirit?

IF YOUR ANSWER TO ANY OF THE QUESTIONS IS NO, THEN YOU ARE NOT A TRUE CHRISTIAN, BECAUSE YOUR NOT DOING WHAT THIS "JESUS" CHARACTER SAID TO DO. STOP BEING HYPOCRITES AND ABIDE BY YOUR OWN WORDS.

Garbonzo.
who are you to tell a believer how to behave?

are you a religious leader? (this in itself does not qualify you to tell me how to behave)

you have an idea of what a 'true christian' is..(not gonna argue right vs wrong)
this is what is gonna kill you. you have NO desire to hear from actual believers that are trying to explain what they have learned, especially if that contradicts this belief of yours about what a christian is.

I DO NOT have to prove to anyone that i am a christian!
all you are doing is pointing your finger and telling ppl what is wrong with them, ANYONE can do this. you do not elevate you intelligence by pointing out what is wrong with ppl.

that said..i do not disagree with you when you say being a christian (in its most basic meaning) means to be 'christ' like..
and i do not disagree with the comment about there being hippocrites among the believers..
BUT BE AWARE..just because a believer shows you he is not perfect does NOT make them a hippocrit..the hippocrit is the one that says they DO follow all the bibles instructions and that they are a 'perfect' christian (no such thing)
(this also does not address your preconceived ideas about what a perfect christian is)
so if there is no such thing as a perfect christian, where does that put your attitude? (your willingness to point out how a christian is not perfect)

let me ask you some questions..

do you believe ALL christians should act alike? (clones)
do you believe God can tell one person to do one thing and someone else to do something else?
do you believe any one man should have authority over others when it comes to God?
do you believe God can be known? (then who are you to tell Christians how to behave?)

 

[garbonzo]

Garbonzo, that attack is over the top.
You have no good reason for calling Adstar a hypocrite.

What Adstar is saying is standard Protestant theology.
Catholic theology is a little different, but we don't want a rerun of the Reformation wars on here, do we?

He didn't say it was basic Protestant teaching 101, he said Christian teaching 101, I was mainly point out that it wasn't.

 

[garbonzo]

Garbonzo.
who are you to tell a believer how to behave?

are you a religious leader? (this in itself does not qualify you to tell me how to behave)

you have an idea of what a 'true christian' is..(not gonna argue right vs wrong)
this is what is gonna kill you. you have NO desire to hear from actual believers that are trying to explain what they have learned, especially if that contradicts this belief of yours about what a christian is.

I DO NOT have to prove to anyone that i am a christian!
all you are doing is pointing your finger and telling ppl what is wrong with them, ANYONE can do this. you do not elevate you intelligence by pointing out what is wrong with ppl.

that said..i do not disagree with you when you say being a christian (in its most basic meaning) means to be 'christ' like..
and i do not disagree with the comment about there being hippocrites among the believers..
BUT BE AWARE..just because a believer shows you he is not perfect does NOT make them a hippocrit..the hippocrit is the one that says they DO follow all the bibles instructions and that they are a 'perfect' christian (no such thing)
(this also does not address your preconceived ideas about what a perfect christian is)
so if there is no such thing as a perfect christian, where does that put your attitude? (your willingness to point out how a christian is not perfect)

let me ask you some questions..

do you believe ALL christians should act alike? (clones)
do you believe God can tell one person to do one thing and someone else to do something else?
do you believe any one man should have authority over others when it comes to God?
do you believe God can be known? (then who are you to tell Christians how to behave?)

It's not ME telling a believer how to behave, I used scriptures quoted from the Bible itself.

I have a true desire to hear what actual believers have to say, as long as it's sturdy evidence.

I was ONLY pointing out the fact that you have to do MORE than just believe. He said that all you have to to is believe, that is what I was refuting. This has nothing to do whether one is a perfect christian or not. The Bible doesn't say you have to be perfect, but it does say only SAYING you believe and not doing what it says will not get you anywhere. (But even if you did do everything it says, it won't get you anywhere, lol)

do you believe ALL christians should act alike? (clones)

I believe if you want to call yourself a christian you should do what the Bible says to do, otherwise you are not a true christian, so true christians should act alike the fact that they are TRY to do what the Bible says to do... some will succeed more than others, but you have to try your best. Otherwise your not good enough.

do you believe God can tell one person to do one thing and someone else to do something else?

Whatever the Bible says about that matter is what you should do. Since God doesn't talk, all you have is the Bible to go by...

do you believe any one man should have authority over others when it comes to God?

No. It's supposedly God's word, not man's. But that is what the governments would want you to believe.

do you believe God can be known? (then who are you to tell Christians how to behave?)

Don't understand the question. God has never made himself known unless the Bible says he did... there is no other proof.

 

[NMSquirrel]

It's not ME telling a believer how to behave, I used scriptures quoted from the Bible itself.

it is you..just as it is the believer who utilizes the bible to back up their points.

I have a true desire to hear what actual believers have to say, as long as it's sturdy evidence.

how are you using the term 'evidence'?

I was ONLY pointing out the fact that you have to do MORE than just believe.

true enough..

He said that all you have to to is believe, that is what I was refuting.

i think it may be a somantic issue..believing is the starting point.

but it does say only SAYING you believe and not doing what it says will not get you anywhere.

so then all the verses that was needed would be..
Matthew 7:21 (New International Version)

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

this (i think) makes your point better than trying to point fingers..

 

[garbonzo]

it is you..just as it is the believer who utilizes the bible to back up their points.


how are you using the term 'evidence'?


true enough..

i think it may be a somantic issue..believing is the starting point.


so then all the verses that was needed would be..
Matthew 7:21 (New International Version)

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

this (i think) makes your point better than trying to point fingers..

I forgot that one. I don't have very good memory. Evidence only has 1 meaning.

 

[NMSquirrel]

Evidence only has 1 meaning.

didn't ask for meaning asked for your usage..

I have a true desire to hear what actual believers have to say, as long as it's sturdy evidence.

when it comes to God..there is testimonies, testimonies are considered evidence among believers.

 

[Adstar]

No, that is not Christianity 101. You don't just have to believe to be a Christian, you have to imitate Jesus, you have to prove you are a Christian by action not by words. And don't tell me "Why are you telling me about this when you don't even believe." I'm telling you this because you are a hypocrite, you say you are a Christian, but then you say all you have to do to be saved is believe. That's not what the Bible says, so if you are going to believe in a God that doesn't exist, you have to do what "He" says, not just believe. That's idiotic.

Man you really have to read the message of the Gospel. Because quite frankly you do not have a clue. Call the love of the truth idiotic will you?? Woe to you.

Matthew 19:21 says: "Jesus said to him: 'If you want to be perfect, go sell your belongings and give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven, and come be my follower.' "

Are you doing that?

You did not read the above verse in context DID YOU. Just pull the verse out and isolate it without reading the passage it was in to find out what context it was given. If you ever do read that verse with an open mind (that’s if it has not been permanently closed already) you will find that Jesus was answering a man who asked Him "what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?" The man wanted to know how he could justify himself into eternity with God. That’s imposable for a man to do. Only God can grant eternity to someone as a gift. All Jesus had to do was ask the man to do something he could not do to shoot him down and send him away in tears. The apostles where shocked and lamented, "“Who then can be saved?”
Jesus replied with “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

GET IT?? Men cannot earn eternity with God, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE. But with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE. Do you understand the MESSAGE?

Matthew 24:14 says: "And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come."

Are you going out and preaching the "good news" as Jesus said?

Actually yes. I am actually doing it on this forum talking to people all over the world. And of other forums as well. But again NO one earns eternity with God by doing this.

Galatians 5:19-23 says:
Are you not doing the works of the flesh and having the qualities of the fruitage of the spirit?

Love yes i love others by giving them the message and standing up for the message even while being denigrated for it by hate filled anti-christs.

Long suffering yep i have suffered much abuse on this forum and others for years from people even more vicious that you.

Peace, Yep i am a real Christian pacifist; i will never take part in war.

Faith. Yep i got faith alright. It's been attacked by people like you for years and it has never died. It's incredibly strong. Pathetic attempts like yours have no effect.

self-control. Well i do fail in this aspect often, And it is wrong, But as i am still a human and faulty in most areas I am thankful for the forgiveness of God for my failures in this area. He understands i am just human.

As for your adding to the scriptures with the "mindless self control" let me reveal that there is a curse now upon you for adding to the Words of God. Don't come back to me saying you did this by mistake. I know and God knows that is was just another pathetic attempt at denigration.

IF YOUR ANSWER TO ANY OF THE QUESTIONS IS NO, THEN YOU ARE NOT A TRUE CHRISTIAN, BECAUSE YOUR NOT DOING WHAT THIS "JESUS" CHARACTER SAID TO DO. STOP BEING HYPOCRITES AND ABIDE BY YOUR OWN WORDS.

GET BEHIND ME SATAN.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Garbonzo, that attack is over the top.
You have no good reason for calling Adstar a hypocrite.

What Adstar is saying is standard Protestant theology.
Catholic theology is a little different, but we don't want a rerun of the Reformation wars on here, do we?

Well i often find myself struggling with protestants. Just because they rejected the corrupt catholic church does not mean they truly believe Jesus. Most of them conform to the catholic doctrine of justifiable war. A doctrine that is in rebellion against the Words of Jesus.

So the struggle (without swords and guns) will go on till the day the Messiah Returns.

The wars of the reformation showed that both sides, all combatants who took part in them, where not true to the words of Jesus.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[garbonzo]

Well i often find myself struggling with protestants. Just because they rejected the corrupt catholic church does not mean they truly believe Jesus. Most of them conform to the catholic doctrine of justifiable war. A doctrine that is in rebellion against the Words of Jesus.

So the struggle (without swords and guns) will go on till the day the Messiah Returns.

The wars of the reformation showed that both sides, all combatants who took part in them, where not true to the words of Jesus.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

What religion are you, then? I agree with you that Jesus said not to wage war.

I was not talking to you when I asked those questions. I was speaking in general. You were saying, if I read correctly, that all you have to do is believe, which is not the case, that's why I mentioned those scriptures.

Why does John 3:16-18 say: “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. 18*He that exercises faith in him is not to be judged. He that does not exercise faith has been judged already, because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.”

Yes, you are correct that we cannot earn everlasting life, it is a gift. But, if someone promised you a gift if you did this and this, and they CAN'T LIE (Hebrews 6:18), then they would basically HAVE to do it, otherwise they would have lied!

The thing is with God, he is the judge of whether you have done your best to EXERCISE (exert yourself, not just believe) faith in him. But if he sees that you have, then he gives you everlasting life. WHY? BECAUSE HE SAID HE WOULD.

You can conclude from this, that if you have absolutely done your best (no doubt about it) for God, he will grant you everlasting life (no doubt about it).

 

[NMSquirrel]

But, if someone promised you a gift if you did this and this, and they CAN'T LIE (Hebrews 6:18), then they would basically HAVE to do it, otherwise they would have lied!

do this.get that? are you talking about man? by what authority does Man have to make those kinds of promises? (dispensationalism, the concept that the church has authority to grant access to heaven (do this, get to heaven))

The thing is with God, he is the judge of whether you have done your best

this is why dispensationalism is wrong..only God knows who will get to heaven and who will not.

You can conclude from this, that if you have absolutely done your best (no doubt about it) for God, he will grant you everlasting life (no doubt about it).

there MUST always be doubt.
there MUST never be any 'proof'.
if there were, then there would be no need for faith.

 

[garbonzo]

do this.get that? are you talking about man? by what authority does Man have to make those kinds of promises? (dispensationalism, the concept that the church has authority to grant access to heaven (do this, get to heaven))


this is why dispensationalism is wrong..only God knows who will get to heaven and who will not.


there MUST always be doubt.
there MUST never be any 'proof'.
if there were, then there would be no need for faith.

I didn't mean it like that. Any of it.

do this.get that? are you talking about man? by what authority does Man have to make those kinds of promises? (dispensationalism, the concept that the church has authority to grant access to heaven (do this, get to heaven))

It was an example. I meant God...

there MUST always be doubt.
there MUST never be any 'proof'.
if there were, then there would be no need for faith.

By HUMAN standards. God would know whether we have tried our best or not, though.

But wth, why am I even debating this with you when we agree that you can't just believe to be saved if you even believe that crazy crap.

 

[NMSquirrel]

It was an example. I meant God...

just wanted to make sure..thought that's what you meant,

By HUMAN standards. God would know whether we have tried our best or not, though.

true enough..

But wth, why am I even debating this with you(specific you) when we agree that you(generic you) can't just believe to be saved if you (generic or specific?)even believe that crazy crap.

?

 

[garbonzo]

just wanted to make sure..thought that's what you meant,


true enough..


?

Doesn't matter. I'm done, unless someone brings up some evidence worth debating.

 

[NMSquirrel]

Doesn't matter. I'm done,

your no fun..

unless someone brings up some evidence worth debating.

most times when someone brings up evidence it is only an excuse for atheist to belittle and demean the believer..is that you? are you looking to argue against God?

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

i'm ready

 

[Adstar]

What religion are you, then? I agree with you that Jesus said not to wage war.

I am a Christian. I am part of the Body of Christ. I don't belong to a sectarian denomination.

I am interested to know however what denomination where you in?

I was not talking to you when I asked those questions. I was speaking in general. You were saying, if I read correctly, that all you have to do is believe, which is not the case, that's why I mentioned those scriptures.

And my reply was that your interpretation (Or more likely the interpretation that you where taught) of those scriptures was/is wrong.

Why does John 3:16-18 say: “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. 18*He that exercises faith in him is not to be judged. He that does not exercise faith has been judged already, because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.”

Where did you get these scriptures??? What version of the bible are you quoting form??? I said before it is a grave thing to add to the scriptures. This word "EXERCISE". Where does it comes from???

This below is from the NKJV, I have looked up the KJV and the NIV and None of them have the word "EXERCISE" in them.

John 3
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So we have a controversy. Either the version you have has added to the words of God and therefore those who produced that version are under a curse. Or the version i have quoted has removed from the Word of God and those who produced it are under a curse.

As you can see the injection of that word "EXERCISE" changes the whole meaning of the passage.

Yes, you are correct that we cannot earn everlasting life, it is a gift. But, if someone promised you a gift if you did this and this, and they CAN'T LIE (Hebrews 6:18), then they would basically HAVE to do it, otherwise they would have lied!

If One says you must do this and this to get a gift. THEN THE GIFT IS NO LONGER A GIFT BUT A PAYMENT FOR THE DOING OF THIS AND THIS.

A gift is something given without need for payment.

Romans 4
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

Romans 11
5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.[c] But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Grace is a True Gift and it is not by Works. Once you seek Works you remove grace and seek payment/Debt.

The thing is with God, he is the judge of whether you have done your best to EXERCISE (exert yourself, not just believe) faith in him. But if he sees that you have, then he gives you everlasting life. WHY? BECAUSE HE SAID HE WOULD.

Once again this "EXERCISE"/ Works is not part of Grace.

You can conclude from this, that if you have absolutely done your best (no doubt about it) for God, he will grant you everlasting life (no doubt about it).

That is seeking payment for Works. What vanity to think that anyone could pay for eternity with God through Works.

Eternity with God has always been a gift from God to mankind. The grace of God eliminates boasting. No one will be able to say, I earned eternity with God through works.

Romans 3
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

Actually the new testimate says plan and clear you will be rewarded for your works. That scoundrel Paul whose name was really something else , i am pretty sure he said that . Not only that but Jesus him self makes reference to the work man and how getting into the kingdom is like the work man who builds his house on rock with a good foundation . The key word here for contemplation is " Work". Do you contribute ? That is the implication in my mind. Now you couple that all up with the old testament" that says " When your dead your dead and no longer have a place with the living". You start to get a feeling what the old buzzards were thinking . Live life and act . Be part of the living . This is your time .
That is what i get out of it.

 

[Adstar]

Yes there was greater reward mentioned by Jesus for doing more and lesser reward for doing less. But they where about varying degrees of reward.

Not about Slavation to Eternity with God or Condemnation to the Lake of Fire.

And Paul was a true Messsanger of God, guilded by the Holy Spirit.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[gmilam]

...Slavation to Eternity with God...

Nice Freudian slip there.