Argument for the "70 weeks messiah prophecy"?

[garbonzo]

Hi, I've been debating with a Christian and he brought up this argument for Bible evidence:

How Daniel’s Prophecy Foretells the Messiah’s Arrival​

THE prophet Daniel lived more than 500 years before the birth of Jesus. Nevertheless, Jehovah revealed to Daniel information that would make it possible to pinpoint the time when Jesus would be anointed, or appointed, as the Messiah, or Christ. Daniel was told: “You should know and have the insight that from the going forth of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks.”—Daniel 9:25.

To determine the time of the Messiah’s arrival, first we need to learn the starting point of the period leading to the Messiah. According to the prophecy, it is “from the going forth of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem.” When did this “going forth of the word” take place? According to the Bible writer Nehemiah, the word went forth to rebuild the walls around Jerusalem “in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king.” (Nehemiah 2:1, 5-8) Historians confirm that the year 474*B.C.E. was Artaxerxes’ first full year as ruler. Therefore, the 20th year of his rule was 455*B.C.E. Now we have the starting point for Daniel’s Messianic prophecy, that is, 455*B.C.E.
Daniel indicates how long the time period leading to the arrival of “Messiah the Leader” would last. The prophecy mentions “seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks”—a total of 69 weeks. How long is this period of time? Several Bible translations note that these are, not weeks of seven days, but weeks of years. That is, each week represents seven years. This concept of weeks of years, or seven-year units, was familiar to Jews of ancient times. For instance, they observed a Sabbath year every seventh year. (Exodus 23:10,*11) Therefore, the prophetic 69 weeks amount to 69 units of 7 years each, or a total of 483 years.

Now all we must do is count. If we count from 455*B.C.E., 483 years takes us to the year 29*C.E. That was exactly the year when Jesus was baptized and became the Messiah! (Luke 3:1, 2, 21,*22) Is that not a remarkable fulfillment of Bible prophecy?

I've never seen this before, does any of you seen this and have a argument against it? Thanks.

490 years
7 weeks 62 weeks 1 week
(49 years) (434 years) (7 years)
|||||||||455||||||406 ||| ←*B.C.E. *C.E. → 29|||||||||||||||33|||||||||||||||||||||||||36
“The word to restore .*.*. Jerusalem” | Jerusalem rebuilt | Messiah arrives | Messiah “cut off” | End of the “seventy weeks”

​

From 455*B.C.E. to 1*B.C.E. is 454 years. From 1*B.C.E. to 1*C.E. is one year (there was no zero year). And from 1*C.E. to 29*C.E. is 28 years. Adding these three figures gives us the total of 483 years. Jesus was “cut off” in death in 33*C.E., during the 70th week of years.

 

[spidergoat]

The argument against it is simple, the prophecies were written to ensure that they predicted Jesus. Although Jesus did not help rebuild Jerusalem or restore independence to Israel.

 

[garbonzo]

Is there no evidence that Daniel was written before 29 C.E.? I had always assumed there was.

EDIT: Found this: http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/series/DAN/D001/D0011.html

The Battle Ground. Daniel has been a battle ground between those who do not believe in God and those who do. Those who do not believe in God cannot accept miracles and biblical prophecies, including Daniel. So they have attacked the date and authorship of Daniel. They say that the book was written after the historical events occurred.
What has occurred is that they have ignored the facts and have refused to answer questions that point to their error. Here are some of the facts.

Dead Sea Scrolls. When was Daniel written? The Dead Sea Scrolls provide the first proof that the book of Daniel existed before 165 BC, since Daniel was found among the manuscripts at Qumran. This early date is the result of radiocarbon dating of the Dead Sea manuscripts of Daniel. They imply that earlier copies of the book with older dates already existed. This is important because Daniel predicted the fall of Babylon (605-539 B.C.), Media-Persia (539-331 B.C.), Greece (331-146 B.C.) and then Rome (331-146 B.C.). Daniel also predicts the time of Jesus’ death (33 A.D.). The Dead Sea Scrolls prove that at least one prophecy, the prophecy about Jesus’ existence on earth to be real.

The Septuagint. There is another proof that the book of Daniel existed before Jesus was alive on this earth. This proof involves the Septuagint, which is also known as the LXX. The LXX is a Greek translation of the Old Testament. Jewish tradition says that seventy scribes translated the Hebrew Bible into Greek between 285 BC and 247 BC. Since the Septuagint contains the book of Daniel, we know that the book of Daniel existed even earlier in time.

Book of Josephus. Josephus states that the book of Daniel was shown to Alexander the Great when he approached the city of Jerusalem (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, Book XI, chapter VIII, section 5). History says that Alexander the Great approached Jerusalem around 331 BC. This means that the book of Daniel existed before this event. It predicted that Jerusalem would be conquered by Greece. Some critics will accept Josephus’ other accounts as being accurate, yet dispute this fact.

The Jewish Tradition. Long standing Jewish tradition says that the book of Daniel existed before 450 BC. While this is not solid proof, it is consistent with the next fact.

Ezekiel's Reference. Most critics widely accept the book of Ezekiel as being written between 586 BC and 538 BC. What is fascinating is that the author, Ezekiel, refers to Daniel in Ezekiel 14:14, 20. This implies that Daniel was alive during his time. Daniel claims to be the author (Daniel 12:4) of the book which bears his name and to have lived during the life of Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 1-2) and Darius (Dan. 9:1). This implies that Daniel was a contemporary of Ezekiel and lived to see the fall of Babylon (Dan. 5:30-31).

Internal Evidence. For decades, the critics said the proof that Daniel was written near Christ’s time is found in the Greek names of musical instruments recorded in the book and in the fact that a portion of Daniel was written in Aramaic. After excavations in Babylonia and Assyria, it has become clear that the musical instruments (lyre, sackbut, and trigon) mentioned in Daniel 3 do not have Greek names (which would argue for a later date for Daniel), but Babylonian names from the seventh century (600 B.C.). These instruments originated in Old Persia and were then assimilated by the Greeks.

 

[spidergoat]

Then the interpretation is certainly not accurate. How can one call weeks years? That doesn't make sense. Many legends of Jesus were carefully crafted to portray him as the fulfillment of prophecy.

 

[garbonzo]

Several Bible translations note that these are, not weeks of seven days, but weeks of years. That is, each week represents seven years. This concept of weeks of years, or seven-year units, was familiar to Jews of ancient times. For instance, they observed a Sabbath year every seventh year. (Exodus 23:10,*11)

 

[spidergoat]

But no Jew considers him the messiah. He did nothing for Israel.

 

[garbonzo]

But no Jew considers him the messiah. He did nothing for Israel.

I said I was debating with a Christian, not a Jew. He believes the messiah came to "die for our sins" and was not a king of the jews, but a king of god's kingdom. Something like that.

 

[Michael]

There were MANY different Bibles and lots of different Christian-like faiths. There is no good evidence Jesus existed and thus it is possible, when making him up, to simply write his story to look as if it fulfilled a prophesy of one sort or another.

IOWs it's all made up and yes, it is that simple.

So, if you want to continue your debate with your friend, why not starting at first principles: What contemporary evidence is there for Jesus?
ANS: None.

See how simple that was?

 

[spidergoat]

No, you have to indulge in the fantasy at least a little bit or they don't care for your argument.

 

[RedRabbit]

Ahem....that's wrong. (Obviously ).

The 20th year of Artaxerxes’ reign would have been 445 BCE, not 455BCE.

Your welcome.

 

[NMSquirrel]

it is very dangerous to take to bible literally, you risk losing the point of the story.

 

[garbonzo]

There were MANY different Bibles and lots of different Christian-like faiths. There is no good evidence Jesus existed and thus it is possible, when making him up, to simply write his story to look as if it fulfilled a prophesy of one sort or another.

IOWs it's all made up and yes, it is that simple.

So, if you want to continue your debate with your friend, why not starting at first principles: What contemporary evidence is there for Jesus?
ANS: None.

See how simple that was?

OMFG you are so right! I can't believe I even had to ask, it's so simple, loool. I feel so embarrassed now. I guess that christian brainwashing never really leaves you, or at least not for awhile.

 

[Adstar]

LOL

How easy is it for one who wishes not to believe to grab any kind of lame excuse not to believe.

Jesus was and indeed is real.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[garbonzo]

LOL

How easy is it for one who wishes not to believe to grab any kind of lame excuse not to believe.

Jesus was and indeed is real.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

LOL

How easy is it for one who wishes to believe to grab no excuse or evidence at all and still believe.

Show me evidence that Jesus was an indeed real.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

But no Jew considers him the messiah. He did nothing for Israel.

Spidey that is not true . There is a sect of Messianic Jews. You should hear them . They got extra voodoo when it comes to temple prayer and things like that . It makes the Danial Prophesies look like child play. I like Danial . He was great Guy . I can relate to Him . Fuck he new how to tame the beast so to speak . I like Him cause He calls Me the Prince . I am all down with that one . Yeah Buddy

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

LOL

How easy is it for one who wishes to believe to grab no excuse or evidence at all and still believe.

Show me evidence that Jesus was an indeed real.

Show Me Ridgley Greathouse the Pirate involved in the Chapman Affair was real.
Show Me he really escape from prison and swam to the shores of the Bowery's of New York . Was He real ?

 

[garbonzo]

Show Me Ridgley Greathouse the Pirate involved in the Chapman Affair was real.
Show Me he really escape from prison and swam to the shores of the Bowery's of New York . Was He real ?

I have no idea what you're talking about, so I can't answer you.

Anyway, it falls on the person who is saying something is real to prove it is real, not the other person to prove it's not real.

That's like some guy saying Santa Clause is real, and you say no he is not, and he asks you to prove he is not. The proof falls on the guy claiming Santa Clause is real, not the other way around.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

I have no idea what you're talking about, so I can't answer you.

Anyway, it falls on the person who is saying something is real to prove it is real, not the other person to prove it's not real.

That's like some guy saying Santa Clause is real, and you say no he is not, and he asks you to prove he is not. The proof falls on the guy claiming Santa Clause is real, not the other way around.

The point is you can't prove he was real .

I will help you a long and then see if you can prove He was real .
http://www.militarymuseum.org/PacSqdn.html

 

[garbonzo]

The point is you can't prove he was real .

I will help you a long and then see if you can prove He was real .
http://www.militarymuseum.org/PacSqdn.html

Hurr? I'm telling YOU to prove he was real, lol. I don't believe in the Bible anymore.

 

[Adstar]

LOL

How easy is it for one who wishes to believe to grab no excuse or evidence at all and still believe.

Show me evidence that Jesus was an indeed real.

NO.

You have already rejected the Message given through scripture. Reject it and you have already been blinded, so as nothing i will say will ever move you to believe.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days