Are soldiers murderers?

This is why I stated in my original post that I was using the definition put forth in the US Declaration of Independence.

Which is? And, why do you believe it?

It's not magical, it is simply the operation of society. The populace puts forth the rules as far as what can and cannot be done, by majority decision. It gives the government the authority to levy taxes, as far as the taxes are used under the consent of the governed. The government taxes the people because the people demand the government do certain things, which cost money.

The populace of which country? Different countries have different forms of government. Even the US does not operate by 'majority decision' of the populace, and never has done. You have utterly failed to answer my original query though, which I will restate: Do you think it is morally permissible for all of the people in your neighbourhood to demand a large swimming pool, and confiscate part of your income to pay for it? Why or why not?

It is well understood that the My Lai massacre was an instance of soldiers going far beyond what their duties were. They abused the power that was given to them. Those specific soldiers were guilty. This does not mean that all soldiers are.

It pretty soundly refutes your ridiculous claim that soldiers are held to higher standards than civilians.

Yes. When the government abuses their power, it is the responsibility of the people to get rid of that government. In 2008, the US people disagreed with the GOP's stance on various subjects, and elected an alternative. One which was closer to their beleifs.

You said previously that the government rules by the consent of the governed, and the government in turn expresses the will of the people. If the 'people' commit atrocity through the mechanism of government, who pays the price? Or is it swept under the rug completely?
 
The 'rights' I speak of are rights to water, food, shelter etc. etc. They come from my head, as does everything else I talk about henceforth.

What makes you think you have a right to water, food, and shelter? Who said this? What happens if you don't get them? Nothing, huh?

And I'm not trying to justify a war for oil. I was talking about soldiers in general. It's too bad soldiers are more often than not used for greedy things.

When you become an armed henchman with 'a license to kill' at the behest of an oligarchy so deceitful and corrupt that it's a tired punchline, why should you expect anything but derision from other people?
 
Which is? And, why do you believe it?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

This is directly quoted from the Declaration of Independence. I agree with them because they make sense (the Creator bit notwithstanding, since that is not within the scope of this thread).

The populace of which country? Different countries have different forms of government. Even the US does not operate by 'majority decision' of the populace, and never has done.

The populace of any country. Even those which are not democratic in nature. The populace of a country that does not remove its government from power when it no longer fulfills the will of the people, is giving tacit approval to the continuance of the government. Therefore, it is the will of the masses that keep governments in power.

You have utterly failed to answer my original query though, which I will restate: Do you think it is morally permissible for all of the people in your neighbourhood to demand a large swimming pool, and confiscate part of your income to pay for it? Why or why not?

That is the same as the populace of a city demanding maintenence on its roads, and city government charging taxes to pay for those roads. Even on those who do not drive. Yes, it is morally permissible.

It pretty soundly refutes your ridiculous claim that soldiers are held to higher standards than civilians.

How so?

Soldiers are held to a higher standard. They are held to standards of behavior under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, as well as civilian law. They are held to the standards put forth by those in command over them. They are required to do things that civilians are not, simply because they are soldiers. Civilians also have many things that they are allowed to do that soldiers are not, for example, protesting, or operating their own business outside of work, or taking a sick day.

You said previously that the government rules by the consent of the governed, and the government in turn expresses the will of the people. If the 'people' commit atrocity through the mechanism of government, who pays the price? Or is it swept under the rug completely?

The people ultimately pay the price, due to the fact that if their government is performing atrocities with their approval, then other countries will come in and put a stop to it, ultimately resulting in either the economic ruin of their nation via sanctions, or the obvious problems of war. Just look at Nazi Germany. The government was performing atrocities, the people of Germany did not put a stop to it, so other countries took action.

It is one thing for CNN or Fox or NPR or the Podunk Times to report that the approval rates of certain actions of the government are down, but ultimately, it does not mean anything. If the people do not actively put a stop to their government's actions, then they are approving those actions.

To sum it all up:
Soldiers act in the will of the Government, Governments act in the will of the people. Therefore, since it is the will of the people that both gives the authority and the instruction to kill, a soldier killing an enemy combatant is not murder. It is only when the soldier acts outside the will of his country that he is guilty in the eyes of his country. Concordantly, it is the responsibility of the people to ensure that their government is acting appropriately, else other countries will step in.
 
When you become an armed henchman with 'a license to kill' at the behest of an oligarchy so deceitful and corrupt that it's a tired punchline, why should you expect anything but derision from other people?

Facts > Opinions huh?
 
From a coherently ethical standpoint, either all are permitted or all condemned.

Actually coherent ethics rarely involves "either all are permitted or all condemned." Such absolutist standards deny the importance of context in making ethical determinations.

Also "murder" is a legal standard. Since soldiers and police aren't violating any laws in their permitted killing they aren't committing murder any more than some one who kills in self defense is committing murder.
 
Agreed. Soldiers are state hired mercenaries. They kill because that is their job. It is what they are trained to do.
Soldiers are a bunch of losers who usually can not find a decent job and they ended up killing people because some politicians ordered them to do so .
They have no morals, no conscience and they have never known the word justice . Yes they are there for money and benefits . They joined the army for their pockets and the politicians, the soldiers and their loved ones keep feeding us the propaganda of supporting them . Yes of course they are MURDERERS according to common sense .
 
Agreed.
Consider all those murderous conscienceless guys who did it purely for the money 60 years ago.
Bugger me, if they'd had any sense of decency they'd have got proper jobs and let Hitler, the Nazis and the Japanese just get on with it.
 
Agreed.
Consider all those murderous conscienceless guys who did it purely for the money 60 years ago.
Bugger me, if they'd had any sense of decency they'd have got proper jobs and let Hitler, the Nazis and the Japanese just get on with it.
If they had any decency they would not have taken orders from people like G.W. Bush, Donald Rumesfeld , Dick Cheney, Paul wolfowitz.....etc.
Anyone who takes orders from such liars and wrong doers is a little robot in a man body . Unless people use their brains and do do what is right they do not deserve any human respect .
 
Or maybe some of them consider it a personal duty?
You know, like providing a defence for their loved ones.

No, I don't know. There is only way to finding it. Let's take any war campaign to ordinary people, and ask them if they would like to kill or get killed for their country during the fight with this or that enemy power, army, etc. Let's tell them it is not compulsory and they will not earn any money for their contribution. OK, food, shelter, medical check ups, and once a week entertainment is for free, but that's all.

Then we count the remaining soldiers. If the population of armies left is at least the half of the previous ones, yes, I admit that you have a sizeable point. If the soldier population of the world sums up between 50% to 20% you still have a considerable point. Yet if our new voluntary armies reach up anywhere lower than 20% of the previous size -today's army population-, then our new armies will consist of people who is aware of their personal duty, is that so?

Could it be possible that some of these people will be there just for a legal killing opportunity? Or to get some profession in order to use in civil life, and they will risk their lives to get this opportunity? How about some who could join army inspite of the hypothetical conditions mentioned above; just because they are so desparate to cope with civil life. Can we ignore the possibility of these people? No, we can not.

All in all, we can not know the significance of your "some people" without trying this project for real. If you are going to elaborate the possibility of remaining soldiers would be more than 50%, I am curious to hear about your arguments.
 
No, I don't know.
That's becoming apparent.

Let's take any war campaign to ordinary people, and ask them if they would like to kill or get killed for their country during the fight with this or that enemy power, army, etc.
No, let's ask them if they think there's a cause worth risking your life for. E.g. defending your country and loved ones against an aggressor.

Let's tell them it is not compulsory and they will not earn any money for their contribution. OK, food, shelter, medical check ups, and once a week entertainment is for free, but that's all.
Why no pay?
Let's tell executives they aren't going to get paid, let's tell plumbers they aren't...

Then we count the remaining soldiers. If the population of armies left is at least the half of the previous ones, yes, I admit that you have a sizeable point.
And you arrive at "some" = "50%" how?

Yet if our new voluntary armies reach up anywhere lower than 20% of the previous size -today's army population-, then our new armies will consist of people who is aware of their personal duty, is that so?
So you're inventing figures to dispute "some"?
Congratulations. :rolleyes:

Could it be possible that some of these people will be there just for a legal killing opportunity?
It's possible, but generally Western Armies tend to reject as soon as possible the "I just want to kill someone" types.

Or to get some profession in order to use in civil life, and they will risk their lives to get this opportunity?
That's also possible, which in no way invalidates my point.

Can we ignore the possibility of these people? No, we can not.
Which STILL doesn't counter my point.

All in all, we can not know the significance of your "some people" without trying this project for real. If you are going to elaborate the possibility of remaining soldiers would be more than 50%, I am curious to hear about your arguments.
All in all you're talking out of your arse.

Look at the numbers of volunteers (Americans) that deliberately moved to Britain in WWII before the US entered the war - because they felt that "the bad guys needed to to be stopped".
Are you telling me they did it for money? For the opportunity to get away with killing someone?
Volunteers swamping the recruiting offices in the UK when Argentina invaded the Falklands... "Kill happy"? "Money hungry"?
Get real.

mike47 said:
A soldier is a murderer .
Balls.
A soldier is someone who sees a duty that requires carrying out.
 
All in all you're talking out of your arse.

Look at the numbers of volunteers (Americans) that deliberately moved to Britain in WWII before the US entered the war - because they felt that "the bad guys needed to to be stopped".
Are you telling me they did it for money? For the opportunity to get away with killing someone?
Volunteers swamping the recruiting offices in the UK when Argentina invaded the Falklands... "Kill happy"? "Money hungry"?
Get real.

When one's country is occupied, majority of population want to do something about it, this is true for almost all countries, not only for Western ones. If someone is attacking your existence -or existentially important values, territories, or people-, it is expected to defend what you got. Because the meaning of occupation is pretty clear among humans.

People who fight in defending armies are called soldiers. However, people in an invasion army are also called soldiers. They are told that the country they will occupy is against their values, life styles, ideology or security. That happened in Vietnam, Korea or Iraq for US, in Afghanistan for Soviet Russia, and in many territories throughout the colonial history of European kingdoms, or Japanese Empire.

Size of your arse must be limitted to your perception of soldiers, yet you still haven't produced any valuable fart for the size of this "some" of yours. If you didn't like my proportional suggestions as an estimation method, you can draw pictures or come up with another idea in order to describe the some. Because up until now, it sounds like a religious belief in an ideal soldier who will increase the size of the army from "some" to "most".

By the way, I "looked at the numbers of volunteers (Americans) that deliberately moved to Britain in WWII before the US entered the war", and I only found "Eagle Squadrons" (volunteer pilots). If you know more numbers or examples to pump up your "some", please share it with us...
 
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When one's country is occupied, majority of population want to do something about it, this is true for almost all countries, not only for Western ones. If someone is attacking your existence -or existentially important values, territories, or people-, it is expected to defend what you got. Because the meaning of occupation is pretty clear among humans.
Uh huh.
So Britain was occupied during WWII which required soldiers?
The US was occupied which required soldiers?

People who fight in defending armies are called soldiers. However, people in an invasion army are also called soldiers.
Ah, now we're getting somewhere.

They are told that the country they will occupy is against their values, life styles, ideology or security. That happened in Vietnam
Wrong: the US didn't "occupy" Vietnam, they were fighting against the North Vietnamese mostly on South Vietnamese territory (by invitation as much as anything).
And IIRC Korea wasn't exactly "occupied" either. Invaded yes.

Size of your arse must be limitted to your perception of soldiers, yet you still haven't produced any valuable fart for the size of this "some" of yours.
"Some" means "some".
Perhaps English isn't familiar to you?
An unspecified value...

Because up until now, it sounds like a religious belief in an ideal soldier who will increase the size of the army from "some" to "most".
I said "some": at no stage have indicated (or even attempted to indicate) that it should be taken as "most".
Perhaps English really is foreign to you.


By the way, I "looked at the numbers of volunteers (Americans) that deliberately moved to Britain in WWII before the US entered the war", and I only found "Eagle Squadrons" (volunteer pilots). If you know more numbers or examples to pump up your "some", please share it with us...
Still failing to see the point of "some" aren't you?
The "some" was direct indication that the GENERALISATION "Soldiers are hired guns, they kill for somebody else (decision makers, politicians). They do it for money, or in some countries as a compulsory duty".
is simply that: a specious and false generalisation.
ONE soldier doing it for any reason other than money or because it's compulsory would invalidate it, but the number is certainly (from my own experience) far than one in any army.
 
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I am not a soldier and not a murderer........:shrug::shrug:
A soldier is a murderer .

You said:

Originally Posted by mike47
Unless people use their brains and do do what is right they do not deserve any human respect .

You aren't using your brains or doing what is right so by your own decree you do not deserve any human respect.

In what way are you failing?

You seem intent on refusing to understand the difference between homicide and murder; and, you seem incapable of realizing not every soldier has to kill some one.
 
I said "some": at no stage have indicated (or even attempted to indicate) that it should be taken as "most".
Perhaps English really is foreign to you.

Not that much foreign to spot your struggle to elevate a God-like some (a great some, valuable some, a some who is much more critical than the most). You are twisting things like religious people are twisting about the place, strength, capacity or shape of their Gods when it is demanded. If you didn't get the idea from the percentage, if you didn't grasp my English, I will give you a number which is much higher than your romantic Eagle Squadron (I found this volunteers but they are part of your argument, so they are yours), and luckily, you would not struggle to understand this, because this is an extract from an English text:

On 27th April 1939, Parliament passed the Military Training Act. This act introduced conscription for men aged 20 and 21 who were now required to undertake six months' military training. However, lessons had been learned from the First World War. Conscientious Objection Tribunals were set up to deal with claims for exemption, but this time there were no military representatives acting as prosecutors. Most importantly, the Tribunals were willing to grant absolute exemption. Over the next six years a total of 59,192 people in Britain registered as Conscientious Objectors (COs).

What is this? This is the number of people who did not want to kill other people; some of them carried out pasive duties during the war, yet they didn't want to kill other human beings, even if they were under attack. So you and people in your mentality don't want to let other people know about them. Your duty lover some can never come near to those nearly 60 000 people.
 
Not that much foreign to spot your struggle to elevate a God-like some (a great some, valuable some, a some who is much more critical than the most).
So you STILL fail to grasp the point?

You are twisting things like religious people are twisting about the place, strength, capacity or shape of their Gods when it is demanded.
Wrong again, I'm pointing out that fatuous generalisations don't work and cannot be held as absolute truths.

What is this? This is the number of people who did not want to kill other people; some of them carried out pasive duties during the war, yet they didn't want to kill other human beings, even if they were under attack. Your duty lover some can never come near to those nearly 60 000 people.
Still missing the point.
Completely.
It doesn't matter at all how many conscientious objectors there were, that's a side issue and a straw man.
The question is whether or not ALL soldiers do it for the money or for the love of killing.
In fact it makes MY point for me.
Many of those conscientious objectors still served in the military and were classed as soldiers (or airmen, or sailors).
And I'd say that those guys did it out of a sense of duty.
Better luck with your next attempt.

So you and people in your mentality don't want to let other people know about them.
And please don't try to ascribe a "mentality" to me since you obviously don't have a clue as to what I'm talking about.
 
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