Are atheists pagans?

[Enterprise-D]

The definition of "pagan" only includes 'irreligious' because of the very hefty and wide-ranging influence of Christianity in the past few centuries.

Athiests by strict definition of the word in correct (historical) context are not pagans. Pagans worship a "higher" "god form". Athiests do not.

 

[John J. Bannan]

You two should read up on the Socratic method.

 

[Grantywanty]

pagan (from an etymological dictionary - notice how poorly it fits atheists, John)
c.1375, from L.L. paganus "pagan," in classical L. "villager, rustic, civilian," from pagus "rural district," originally "district limited by markers," thus related to pangere "to fix, fasten," from PIE base *pag- "to fix" (see pact). Religious sense is often said to derive from conservative rural adherence to the old gods after the Christianization of Roman towns and cities; but the word in this sense predates that period in Church history, and it is more likely derived from the use of paganus in Roman military jargon for "civilian, incompetent soldier," which Christians (Tertullian, c.202; Augustine) picked up with the military imagery of the early Church (e.g. milites "soldier of Christ," etc.). Applied to modern pantheists and nature-worshippers from 1908. Paganism is attested from 1433.

 

[John J. Bannan]

So, you are saying there is a Christian conspiracy to label atheists as "pagans" even though they're not?

 

[Enterprise-D]

It isn't a conspiracy per se, since the move was already successful. The definition was simply introduced into contemporary language and perpetuated.

A dictionary worth its salt nowadays should include the disparity. But it remains that historically pagans were indeed religious, thus athiests and pagans have mutually exclusive ... methods ... shall we say?

 

[Grantywanty]

So, you are saying there is a Christian conspiracy to label atheists as "pagans" even though they're not?

Where did I say there was a conspiracy?
What does this matter?

 

[John J. Bannan]

You didn't. Enterprise-D did. You use your little known dictionary, I'll use my widely used and popular dictionary.

 

[Grantywanty]

You didn't. Enterprise-D did. You use your little known dictionary, I'll use my widely used and popular dictionary.

If you are going to ask questions you should be polite enough to read responses. I said 'originally' in a much earlier post and then to substantiate my claim I looked it up in an etymological dictionary. You know, a dictionary that shows word origins.

You are quite right that some people think that athiests can be called pagans. You seem to think that atheists should agree to what some people think the word should include. This is ridiculous. And an adolescent endeavor. It has a real playground feel.

 

[Grantywanty]

Warning:
Bannan thinks he is engaged in the Socratic method.

Socrates, by the way, was a pagan.

Can I assume that you have respect for pagan activities like this one?

 

[John J. Bannan]

Words can mean whatever people want them to mean. When people use a word to describe another group of people, that tells you something about the people and the word. It also tells you something about the people who don't want to be called by the word. This is not a playground game. This is a thoughtful exercise.

 

[Grantywanty]

When people use a word to describe another group of people, that tells you something about the people and the word.

It may tell you nothing at all about the people being referred to.

It also tells you something about the people who don't want to be called by the word.

this is true. It seems like the atheists here made it pretty clear they did not want to be confused with people who follow pagan religions. There, you have your reason. They thought that it would be misleading. Nothing sinister. Nothing negative proven about atheists, or pagans for that matter.

This is not a playground game.

Something similar might not have been. In other words, one could explore with questions and it would not feel like this childish exercise to trap people in something. But here you were trying to trap atheists somehow with what you consider a socratic approach. It was a very indirect way of getting your aggression out.

But again, it's nice to see you using a method developed by a pagan, a pagan who was in fact probably homosexual and clearly accepting of homosexuality in others.

This is very broadminded of you and should be commended.

 

[Orleander]

How was he trying to trap people? I said I didn't like to be called pagan, does that mean I was trapped?

 

[John J. Bannan]

I am not trying to trap anybody. Avoiding traps can be used to discover insight. - which by the way is the point of the Socratic method.

 

[spidergoat]

I would call myself a pagan just for fun and to irk Christians, however, pagans believe in supernatural things just as much if not more than monotheists. Interestingly, pagans like the Romans called Christians atheists.

 

[Jeff 152]

Paganism (from Latin paganus, meaning "an old country dweller, rustic") is a term which, from a Western perspective, has come to connote a broad set of spiritual or cultic practices or beliefs of any folk religion, and of historical and contemporary polytheistic religions in particular.

The term can be defined broadly, to encompass the faith traditions outside the Abrahamic monotheistic group of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The group so defined includes the Dharmic religions (such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism), Native American religions and mythologies and Shinto as well as non-Abrahamic ethnic religions in general.

The term "Pagan" is a Christian adaptation of the "Gentile" of Judaism, and as such has an inherent Christian or Abrahamic bias, and pejorative connotations among Westerners,[2] comparable to heathen, and infidel, mushrik and kafir (كافر) in Islam. For this reason, ethnologists avoid the term "Paganism", with its uncertain and varied meanings, in referring to traditional or historic faiths, preferring more precise categories such as polytheism, shamanism, pantheism, or animism.

Since the later 20th century, however, the words "Pagan" or "Paganism" have become widely and openly used as a self-designation of adherents of polytheistic reconstructionism and neo-Paganism.[3]

Both "Pagan" and "heathen" have historically been used as a pejorative by adherents of monotheistic religions (such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam) to indicate a disbeliever in their religion.

So pagan almost always means a polytheist or some traditional religion. Now, you are correct in that ONE of the definitions of Pagan is a nonbeliever in any religion

"Paganism" is also sometimes used to mean the lack of (an accepted monotheistic) religion, and therefore sometimes means essentially the same as atheism

However, this is not the typical usage. Thus, if atheists were labeled as pagans, how would you differentiate them from the polytheists? Thats like saying the color blue should now be called non-red. Sure, if you are wearing a blue shirt and you tell them it is non-red, one of the definitions will be that you are wearing a blue shirt, but you could also be wearing a green or yellow shirt. Basically, the term pagan is vague and has contradictory defintions, but the widely more accepted version is polytheism and its cousins.

Isn't calling yourselves "atheists" really a new age label for paganism? Aren't atheists really just trying to run away from the negative perception on pagans - instead of embracing their ancient heritage?

LOL. I got another example. When black people call themselves african americans arent they just trying to escape the negative connotation of the N word instead of embracing their anceint heritage?

Pagan is a vague word with contradictory defintions and intent to insult. It should not be used at all both to avoid confusion and insult. How about we just call things what they are, ok John?

Close this idiotic thread

 

[John J. Bannan]

"Pagan" is like the N word? Since when?

 

[Enterprise-D]

You didn't. Enterprise-D did. You use your little known dictionary, I'll use my widely used and popular dictionary.

You should know at least by frequenting these forums that it is a fallacy to accept a statement as true merely via the popular vote.

 

[John J. Bannan]

You can't reference a reference book, then, when discussing the definition of a word?

 

[Benauld]

JJB reminds me of ICEAGECIVS...

 

[Orleander]

...LOL. I got another example. When black people call themselves african americans arent they just trying to escape the negative connotation of the N word instead of embracing their anceint heritage?

Pagan is a vague word with contradictory defintions and intent to insult. It should not be used at all both to avoid confusion and insult. ..

OMG! You mean the n word and the word pagan are on the same level?? I feel so incredibly bad now. I did not know that. And I'm sorry to all that I have offended.

So when GrantyWanty said he was one, what does that mean? If you consider yourself one, you get to use the word? Kinda like how some balck peopl euse the n word?

Oh, and John Kerry's wife is more African American than any black person I know.