Are all soldiers like the Nazis?

The motives presented in Paradise Now are twisted
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They are? You think they should have shown how tanks rolling into Lebanon are manned by guys who can't shoot people?

I think Paradise now is an honest appraisal of Palestinian motives. A Waltz with Bashir is just more Israeli hand wringing and inability to see their actions for what they are.

Its the point of the film. Didn't you notice the live footage of Palestinians in the camp the day after the massacre at the end of the film? The thrust from the animated, dream version of reality to the stark reality? Its like you didn't watch the film at all.
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I thought that was the biggest slap in the face to those victims. Even their bloated dead bodies were just a backdrop to Israeli suffering.

Imagine a holocaust film where the pile of dead Jews is about the German soldiers angst and sorrow and completely ignores how the Jews feel about it.

It makes the leaders of the Palestinian movement look corrupt, self hating, self pitying and hateful towards others.
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And they are not? lol.

RickyH said:
Wow, that fictional song is pretty comparable to them cutting off american soldiers heads.
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No its comparbale to them singing a rock song after they do it, blaming the victim for their actions. How would you feel about an animated film which did that?


Like Golda Meir famously said: “We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children”

Its a pretty common rhetoric in military apologetics.
 
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S.A.M. said:
They are? You think they should have shown how tanks rolling into Lebanon are manned by guys who can't shoot people?

I think Paradise now is an honest appraisal of Palestinian motives. A Waltz with Bashir is just more Israeli handwrininging and inability to see their actions for what they are.



And they are not? lol.
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Well if the answer to occupation and ethnic cleansing is to blow yourself to bits then yes it a twisted ideology. Kill off your bright young daughters and sons and then complain that no one recognizes your human rights :rolleyes:

The motives may have been presented honestly but it doesn't enlist sympathy from the viewer. They were presented as lost and lazy.

I disagree with your appraisal of Waltz With Bashir. It was beautifully made and it did present their actions for what they were, I don't know anyone who has seen the film who didn't think otherwise until now.
 
The motives may have been presented honestly but it doesn't enlist sympathy from the viewer. They were presented as lost and lazy.
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Yes, the truth is banal and ugly. Do you think a nice song at the moment the bus blew up with the suicide bomber strumming an acoustic would have enlisted more sympathy?

It was beautifully made and it did present their actions for what they were, I don't know anyone who has seen the film who didn't think otherwise until now.
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You must have missed the reviews in Palestine and Lebanon [and Israel], although, I will admit, they don't count at all.
 
S.A.M. said:
No its comparbale to them singing a rock song after they do it, blaming the victim for their actions. How would you feel about an animated film which did that?


Like Golda Meir famously said: “We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children”

Its a pretty common rhetoric in military apologetics.
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How about the films al queda makes playing arabic music showing soldiers dying? Not all americans also, they kill plenty of important (non military) people who are trying to make iraq a safer place. It's all over the web I imagine too.
 
I think they need better music and animation to show the artistic side of beheading.
 
S.A.M. said:
Yes, the truth is banal and ugly. Do you think a nice song at the moment the bus blew up with the suicide bomber strumming an acoustic would have enlisted more sympathy?
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No that scene in PN demanded the silence as it highlights both the bombers calm as well as his tension. The music during Waltz With Bashir doesn't occur at the end when they show the live footage. It didn't take away from the Palestinian suffering it drove it home.

The footage with the IDF on patrol singing their war song fits perfectly with the mindset they are trying to illustrate, it wasn't misplaced.
 
S.A.M. said:
I disagree, it was a charade and an insult to the victims who did not even merit the consideration shown to dogs and horses.

You should read Gideon Levy's take on it. Jewcy also did a very good review. Electronic intifada struggled to be objective but could not prevent their emotions showing through.
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Well I completely disagree. I didn't pick up any of that from the film and I certainly didn't think it was insulting to the victims.
 
RickyH said:
Why is it not surprising to me that you think murdering is artistic, not realistic and barbarian when an arabic person does it.
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Apparently its all in the presentation. Which song would be more likely to elicit viewer sympathies while a soldiers head is being cut off?
 
How about what song sounds better when they blow up an iraqi building with no NATO forces present (kill a couple hundred civillians). What's the most artistic part about that? Is it the choice in music, or the excellent camera view?
 
RickyH said:
How about what song sounds better when they blow up an iraqi building with no NATO forces present (kill a couple hundred civillians). What's the most artistic part about that? Is it the choice in music, or the excellent camera view?
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Don't you find it even remotely interesting that car bombings only occured in Iraq after the US invasion [just like the suicide bombings] and only after Negroponte took command?

Maybe the Americans could make a film about it:

What other army has a song like this, and in the middle of a war, yet? Afterward they go on to sing that Lebanon Iraq is the "love of my life, the short life." And then the tank, from inside of which this lofty and enlightened singing emanates, crushes a car for starters, turning it into a smashed tin can, then pounds a residential building, threatening to topple it. That's how we are. Singing and wrecking. Where else will you find sensitive soldiers like these? It would really be preferable for them to shout with hoarse voices: Death to the Arabs!
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S.A.M. said:
Don't you find it even remotely interesting that car bombings only occured in Iraq after the US invasion [just like the suicide bombings] and only after Negroponte took command?

Maybe the Iraqis could make a film about it:
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Oh, not in the way you find it interesting. But does that make it our fault that arabic people kill each other? saddam apparently killed quite a few himself. maybe you're like one of those individuals in babyl today, beating himself with a chain because he's been shameful to some unsung hero.

is saddam their unsung hero? are they lost without their nazi dictactor?
 
RickyH said:
But does that make it our fault that arabic people kill each other?

is saddam their unsung hero?
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Hilarious. You're just the guy who doesn't want to kill but can't help riding the tanks that blow up the people, eh?

are they lost without their nazi dictactor?
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Seems like it, they were a secular country sans suicide and car bombs under him. Indians worked there as expat workers and praise Iraq to us.
 
Gustav said:
and talking to americans about that is gonna achieve what? another invasion?

/cackle
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Maybe the Iraqis could re-enact the war between loyalists and patriots for the benefit of mindless soldiers appalled at muslims killing muslims.
 
S.A.M. said:
Hilarious. You're just the guy who doesn't want to kill but can't help riding the tanks that blow up the people, eh?



Seems like it, they were a secular country sans suicide and car bombs under him. Indians worked there as expat workers and praise Iraq to us.
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Who wants to kill? If I wanted to kill anyone, i'd be sick in the head. Besides I prefer riding inside of something safer than a tank. Blackhawks I'd consider safer then those death traps.


oh, iraq a praiseful place to live, with their ex leader hung for genocide? you know, a lot of people use to praise germany to be a great place to work in the 40s.
 
S.A.M. said:
Maybe the Iraqis could re-enact the war between loyalists and patriots for the benefit of mindless soldiers appalled at muslims killing muslims.
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And this would have nothing to do with traditional irritation between Shias and Sunnis, would it?
 
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