Are all soldiers like the Nazis?

echo said:
It's a straw that would have some weight to it, if it were placed on the scales of formal Judicial proceedings, no?
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Not really. From a legal standpoint, chemical weapons are weapons whose primary effects rely on their toxic properties, much like incendiary weapons are weapons whose primary effects rely on their combustible properties.
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The "primary effect" in what premeditated, policy-coherent, tactically common use?

How would you predict a court would rule on the "primary effect" of WP weaponry used in shake and bake assaults on populated city targets?
 
S.A.M. said:
I'm asking you to apply your perspective of this war [or any war] to German soldiers in WWII. Where the victims of the nazis are peripheral to the "suffering" of the Germans. A waltz with Auschwitz, so to speak.
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I think I may have an answer for you. In comparison from nazis to current day soldiers. You have to account that the majority of nazis had anti semetic views. The majority of soldiers in the american modern military aren't anti islamic. Some may be, yes. But they by no means take part in an extermination. I could see how the relevence is there, because of how many civillians have died. But in contrast to many wars since ww1, the number of civillians lost has been pretty low.

Germans felt bad about going to war, because it is 100% human to be effected by it. However there may be some sympathetic feelings towards that. It's not the same to say a soldier in the war on terrorism is immune to killing non combatants in the same way a nazi is.

However, I wasn't there, and no matter how many reports I read, I will not know what went through most nazi's minds as they executed jews, french, british civillians. The best answer I could give is that a surprising number of nazis didn't agree with it. Just not the same numbers you see in modern military.

So many more soldiers disagree with the war, disagree with killing civillians, and generally have a better sense of what's going on in the war than the nazis did. So it's a harsh comparison to say the least.
 
S.A.M. said:
They showed Waltz with Bashir today on our world movies channel. I watched it because Lucy had recommended it. Initially I was surprised and pleased, because the character expressed remorse for the dogs he killed in Lebanon. All 26 of them, there was a graphic depiction of a dog being killed and an expression of remorse on the soldiers face. As the story progressed, I waited to hear about the the other victims [you know, the 18,000 Lebanese killed, the 30,000 injured]. I heard, but about the horses at Beirut. There was another graphic scene, horses injured, suffering slowly dying. More expression of remorse at horses.

The word invasion was never mentioned, neither were the Lebanese victims or what the Israelis were doing in Lebanon, i.e. reasons for the massive damage they inflicted there. The bombings and missiles that destroyed large neighborhoods in Beirut and Shibon [I think] were portrayed as a rock concert set to music. The massacre at Shabra and Shatilla was "visited" with unintelligible Palestinians crying out for their sons [not translated in the subtitles]. The Palestinians had no names, no one spoke to them, they were only good as dead or blown up bodies, with no human context or suffering that required any recognition except in terms of Israeli suffering. The Lebanese victims were made obvious by a complete lack of any reference to their conditions.

Everything was discussed as rising from the holocaust [a timely reference to Auschwitz and the Nazis here] and a sense of "misplaced" guilt because after all they [the IDF] did not massacre the refugees [just caused them to become refugees and never mind about the 18,000 dead in Lebanon, they don't count in this shallow, superficial, narcissistic self involved orgy of displacing responsibility for your own actions] and hence they were absolved by becoming victims of the invasion they imposed upon the locals.
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You have skewed the film. Its about a soldier who has lost his memory of the conflict so there is no reason to go into why they were in Lebanon. What is important is that the soldier remembers and understands Israeli culpability in the killing of Palestinians in Lebanon even if the murder was committed by the christian militia, the Israeli ally. The film readily builds a bridge between the people in Aushwitgz and the palestinians in the camp. The soldier understands that there was very little difference between his family in the camps, in the trains etc and the people in the camps in Lebanon. In actuality the Israeli's knew and supported the massacre but are not responsible for the actual killing. Why are you focused on those who had supported the massacre and not the ones who perpetrated the massacre?

Sam again I would like to know how this is an occupation if the US and NATO presence is supported by the existing governments? They haven't been asked to leave Afghanistan.
 
RickyH said:
It's too bad, yeah you're right. It's too bad I'm still alive, while countless are dead, and it's too fucking bad I couldn't prevent civillians from dying. It's too fucking bad every american soldier confused by war couldn't do something to help these iraqis in every way possible because we don't have a choice on being in iraq, depending on when we enlisted. It's too fucking bad that in war people die, and it's too fucking bad we have horrible people on both sides of the battlefield.



It's also too bad you can talk about death as if it were a joke. I feel deeply sorry for you. I hope you never have to understand what really happens in wars. I hope all you see is what's in movies, and that i also hope you help stop wars.
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Do not try and explain yourself. Its not that she doesn't understand she simply doesn't care about your point of view. Anything you say she will use to paint you as a 'nazi'. I agree you are not a victim, you were not drafted, you chose to serve.
 
Sam again I would like to know how this is an occupation if the US and NATO presence is supported by the existing governments? They haven't been asked to leave Afghanistan.
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Were the Jews occupied in Warsaw if the Judenrats were in charge of the camps? If the "government" of Afghanistan [like the privy purse nawabs of colonial India] asked the occupiers to leave, would they go? Karzai was unabashedly installed by the Americans and is a known payroll employee of Unocal.

Besides, when was the last time you heard an Afghan opinion on the American media?

The soldier understands that there was very little difference between his family in the camps, in the trains etc and the people in the camps in Lebanon
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A very strange understanding that completely eliminates the perspective of the victim. Like a holocaust memorial sans Jews.
 
S.A.M. said:
Were the Jews occupied in Warsaw if the Judenrats were in charge of the camps? If the "government" of Afghanistan [like the privy purse nawabs of colonial India] asked the occupiers to leave, would they go? Karzai was unabashedly installed by the Americans and is a known payroll employee of Unocal.

Besides, when was the last time you heard an Afghan opinion on the American media?

A very strange understanding that completely eliminates the perspective of the victim.
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We hear Afghan opinions all the time on the BBC. I'm not in the States right now so I cannot tell you what is currently going on in their media.

There is no comparison to the Christian militia and the Capos. You have failed to answer the question which is how the US and NATO are 'occupiers' when they are supported by the present government and work with the present government? I am not speaking of WW2 or Jews or Israel though I know you are fanatic on the subject please focus on the question. Karzai was installed but also has his own power base in the country. People struggled to go out and vote even though the voting procedure was initially set up by outside forces, they still risked their limbs to go out and take part (a sign of support).

The film is about a soldiers search for the truth. Why doesn't Paradise Now take on the Israeli perspective? Maybe because its telling the story of a couple of lost Palestinians? Waltz With Bashir is a story of culpability, guilt and memory not a story of Palestinians. The horse and dog scenes should be interpreted as events that were skewed in his memory and were often symbols in his dream. You seem to have missed the whole point but as you are so one sided I am not surprised. It only mirrors how those two groups will never see nor hear each other. Too bad.
 
Its an occupation because Karzai was installed. As simple as that. All corrupt dictators have a power base.

Why doesn't Paradise Now take on the Israeli perspective?
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Because its not a story that revisits a war? But even in Paradise Now, there are living Israelis who walk and talk. An explanation of motives, an honest assessment of the complexities of war and the helplessness of limited options. Its okay to show your father was a collaborator, that you choose to get into a bus and blow up innocent children. In Waltz with Bashir was there a single Israeli who wanted to kill? Or were they all helpless navel gazers who avoided accountability for the occupation and its repercussions?
 
RickyH said:
Every single arab / muslim?
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Anyone interested in the USAmerican war of liberation. Just like anyone interested in the holocaust knows that Europeans, especially Germans have endemic antisemitism.
 
S.A.M. said:
Anyone interested in the USAmerican war of liberation. Just like anyone interested in the holocaust knows that Europeans, especially Germans have endemic antisemitism.
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Does this song exterminate a race or talk about exterminating a race or religious group or is it obviously a comedy?
 
RickyH said:
How so? Do arab people sing this song when mortaring our bases?
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No

RickyH said:
Sam, I can't watch youtube.
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I forgot, sorry

The lyrics:

Hadji Girl

I was out in the sands of Iraq
And we were under attack
And I, well, I didn’t know where to go.

And the first thing that I could see was
Everybody’s favorite Burger King
So I threw open the door and I hit the floor.

Then suddenly to my surprise
I looked up and I saw her eyes
And I knew it was love at first sight.

And she said…
Durka Durka Mohammed Jihad
Sherpa Sherpa Bak Allah
Hadji girl, I can’t understand what you’re saying.

And she said…
Durka Durka Mohammed Jihad
Sherpa Sherpa Bak Allah
Hadji girl, I love you anyway.

Then she said that she wanted me to see.
She wanted me to go meet her family
But I, well, I couldn’t figure out how to say no.

Cause I don’t speak Arabic.

So, she took me down an old dirt trail.
And she pulled up to a side shanty
And she threw open the door and I hit the floor.

Cause her brother and her father shouted…
Durka Durka Mohammed Jihad
Sherpa Sherpa Bak Allah
They pulled out their AKs so I could see

And they said…
Durka Durka Mohammed Jihad
Sherpa Sherpa Bak Allah
(with humorous emphasis)
So I grabbed her little sister, and pulled her in front of me.

As the bullets began to fly
The blood sprayed from between her eyes
And then I laughed maniacally

Then I hid behind the TV
And I locked and loaded my M-16
And I blew those little f*ckers to eternity.

And I said…
Durka Durka Mohammed Jihad
Sherpa Sherpa Bak Allah
They should have known they were f*ckin’ with a Marine.
 
S.A.M. said:
Its an occupation because Karzai was installed. As simple as that. All corrupt dictators have a power base.



Because its not a story that revisits a war? But even in Paradise Now, there are living Israelis who walk and talk. An explanation of motives, an honest assessment of the complexities of war and the helplessness of limited options. Its okay to show your father was a collaborator, that you choose to get into a bus and blow up innocent children. In Waltz with Bashir was there a single Israeli who wanted to kill? Or were they all helpless navel gazers who avoided accountability for the occupation and its repercussions?
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Oh so they should have left it without a government? Why did the people go out to cast their votes?

Where are the living Israeli's in Paradise Now? The guy who picks them up in a car? The bus full of Israeli's who have no lines? Paradise Now has one focus and one focus alone and that is a Palestinian focus. Its one way of telling a story. The motives presented in Paradise Now are twisted and make the Palestinians look weak, perverse as they kill themselves off and then pretend that the Israeli's care that they kill themselves off. It makes the leaders of the Palestinian movement look corrupt, self hating, self pitying and hateful towards others. No wonder the film was endorsed by the Israeli government!!! At the end of it I wasn't on the side of the Palestinians but couldn't help thinking how sick they have become in their consciousness.

Waltz With Bashir does take responsibility for the part the Israeli's played. Its the point of the film. Didn't you notice the live footage of Palestinians in the camp the day after the massacre at the end of the film? The thrust from the animated, dream version of reality to the stark reality? Its like you didn't watch the film at all.

As for setting music to war didn't you see Apocalypse Now? Waltz with Bashir was a well made film and its message hit home but I don't expect you to give Israeli's any credit for anything they do.
 
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